145 spindle control blew (again)

[tjd10684]

soooooo my spindle control board blew again. this was a rev a board but at this point im pretty shaky on any board from Sangmutan so im looking for other options particularly using a 3 phase general purpose ac motor with a vfd. in particular a gs1-21po ( GS1-21P0 Products ) coupled to a iron horse 1hp 3 phase motor (MTR-001-3BD36 Products )

so has anybody done this or know how to implement such a system. or do i have to use a bdlc type motor. if thats the case where can i use this same controller or what. im kinda in no mans land right now as far as knowing what direction to head next so thoughts?

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[Dynoray]

soooooo my spindle control board blew again. this was a rev a board but at this point im pretty shaky on any board from Sangmutan so im looking for other options particularly using a 3 phase general purpose ac motor with a vfd. in particular a gs1-21po ( GS1-21P0 Products ) coupled to a iron horse 1hp 3 phase motor (MTR-001-3BD36 Products )

so has anybody done this or know how to implement such a system. or do i have to use a bdlc type motor. if thats the case where can i use this same controller or what. im kinda in no mans land right now as far as knowing what direction to head next so thoughts?

I was in the same boat with the Novakoned junk, and gave up on their lack of support and knowledge. I just installed an AC 3HP 3 phase motor a Teco VFD on our NM-200. It was a bit of messing around mounting the motor and making the pulley but the VFD is very easy to wire up with Mach control.
Now I just have to change out the control board, drivers ect and then I'll finally have an actual working Novakoned mill, it will still be a piece of junk but it will work for wrough stuff.
Ray

[ihavenofish]

soooooo my spindle control board blew again. this was a rev a board but at this point im pretty shaky on any board from Sangmutan so im looking for other options particularly using a 3 phase general purpose ac motor with a vfd.

so has anybody done this or know how to implement such a system. or do i have to use a bdlc type motor. if thats the case where can i use this same controller or what. im kinda in no mans land right now as far as knowing what direction to head next so thoughts?

when did you get the new drive? khai said they were sending out new ones soon, ill have one shortly. is the one you blew very recent (few weeks)? that would suck if the new ones are still dying.

xzero is working on a drive that will handle the nm145 motor, but thats a ways a way still unfortunately. the trouble with an AC solution is that most of them will not fit inside the head of the nm145. ive been looking. youll have to adapt it to mount up top.

as for the inverter, it should come with basic instruction. you need a 0-10V output from the pc to control the speed, and and output to turn it on usually. i *think* the c11g cnc4pc board that novakon uses supports this, but i dont remember the setup. my nm200 had an ac motor and vfd set up already so ive never looked over the wiring.

[Dynoray]

when did you get the new drive? khai said they were sending out new ones soon, ill have one shortly. is the one you blew very recent (few weeks)? that would suck if the new ones are still dying.

xzero is working on a drive that will handle the nm145 motor, but thats a ways a way still unfortunately. the trouble with an AC solution is that most of them will not fit inside the head of the nm145. ive been looking. youll have to adapt it to mount up top.

as for the inverter, it should come with basic instruction. you need a 0-10V output from the pc to control the speed, and and output to turn it on usually. i *think* the c11g cnc4pc board that novakon uses supports this, but i dont remember the setup. my nm200 had an ac motor and vfd set up already so ive never looked over the wiring.

Yes that could be a minor problem if there's no room. The cover will still fits over the 3HP AC motor I installed on the NM-200. The motor is a WEG 90T Alum frame.
Yes the C11g works great with most VFD's, I'm using a Teco EC7300. You have the 0-10V signal, one wire for forward on/off and one wire for rev on/off and the grounds, two of which are common.
Very simple setup, once you have the motor mounted.

[tjd10684]

@ fish

no this was a rev a board. i think they sent one they had in stock to shut me up until the new boards got here. i guess im going to have to on them hard again to get a replacement so i can keep working while i figure out the ac drive if for no other reason than to have a backup.

as far as mounting the motor up top i have no problem with that. it should keep the motor away from coolant even better, cant go too wrong with that right?

so what everyone is saying is that the control scheme is already there for an industrial 3 phase spindle makes me wonder why they just dont install them from the factory instead of screwing with a supplier that so far has a rocky (at best) track record.

antother question to those of you with motors installed. what kind of rpm are you getting out of your spindle? i would like to keep my ability to run @ 6k. would a matched set of pullys like a bridgeport be a good investment (maybe just two steps though)

[ihavenofish]

@ fish

no this was a rev a board. i think they sent one they had in stock to shut me up until the new boards got here. i guess im going to have to on them hard again to get a replacement so i can keep working while i figure out the ac drive if for no other reason than to have a backup.

as far as mounting the motor up top i have no problem with that. it should keep the motor away from coolant even better, cant go too wrong with that right?

so what everyone is saying is that the control scheme is already there for an industrial 3 phase spindle makes me wonder why they just dont install them from the factory instead of screwing with a supplier that so far has a rocky (at best) track record.

antother question to those of you with motors installed. what kind of rpm are you getting out of your spindle? i would like to keep my ability to run @ 6k. would a matched set of pullys like a bridgeport be a good investment (maybe just two steps though)

novakon goofed by speccing the dc motor, but in the past on the 135 and nm070 (sieg based) dc brushless have been perfectly fine, but they arent samutan. mine has no name actually, just "zm-w80-500" (500w). i dont think anyone realised the motors were bad til after everything shipped. i have the first 145, and i didnt notice it wasnt quite right for nearly a month, at which point we swapped both the drive and the motor with no effect. that would have been august or september last year if i recall. note that smithy, sieg, syil and a few others also used them.

anyhow, for speed, to keep 6k rpm, youll likely need to change the pulleys to a 2:1 ratio. shouldnt bee too big a problem to find pulleys that will fit. and i agree mounting it up top is probably where it should have been in the first place. the internal mounting looks nice and clean, but its a pain in the ass to work with and keep cool.

[tjd10684]

actually looking at the price difference between 1 hp and 2 hp is about $55 i may just go with the 2 hp. its overkill but i don't think i would have any problem at all with bogging down the motor even with a 2:1 belt ratio. that would also eliminate the spindle power restriction that i have come up against in the past (no more problems spinning 1/2" bits in aluminum) i would then be limited by the steppers and the rigidity of the machine. i may even try a 3:1 ratio for engraving although im not sure how well the spindle bearing would like 10000 rpm or if their even balanced enough to do it.

[urbanimports02]

i spoke with michelle over at smithy(they have come a long way as a company as of recent) and she said they tested the sangmutan drives and were totally unsatisfied with them and they use an american made(i believe) controler that costs more, but she says it has proven much more reliable and improved the low end torque dramatically. the new smithy 1240(nm200) looks and sounds quite nice. she said they kind of just got back into that mill and improving it. i believe she said the bldc drive was from siemens??? its a little more money, but reliability is worth a lot! i am realizing there is a reason novakon has the best priced mills out there.... the smithy rapids at 250ipm and has 6k rpm spindle. best of all, when i could not get novakon to return my emails or calls, i got people on the phone twice in one day at smithy, and only had to hold for the correct person for maybe 1 minute! how nice would that be... when you say change pulleys to 2:1, does that mean the dc motor is only pulling 3k rpm itself? i thought the nm200 with 4k rpm ac motor(like mine) were 1:1?

[ihavenofish]

when you say change pulleys to 2:1, does that mean the dc motor is only pulling 3k rpm itself? i thought the nm200 with 4k rpm ac motor(like mine) were 1:1?

no, i meant for you to use the motor you showed in the 145, you would change the pulleys to a 2:1 ratio. the dc is 6k, so it has a 1:1 setup stock.

for the 200, mine is 1:1 at 4k with an ac motor. i dont know what theyve done for the replacement ac's on the new version.

you can also get a tekno spindle motor that runs 12k, 1hp or 2hp. italian made with a canadian inverter. i think the kit runs around $700.

[ihavenofish]

oh, and for smithy, yeah, im looking at their kit now, and theyve really changed it alot. changed the price alot too of course. its a tricky thing, cause youve got one group wanting everything for pennies, and another who will just skip over to a vmc for reliability. the guy in between who's both rational and budget strapped seems a rare breed. but i think the market might be maturing enough that its time to pour some extra trimmings in the service and quality control, even if the price has to rise to pay for it.

this motor thing is a disaster, and can really kill a company.

[tjd10684]

the motor that is in there now (nm-145 and most likely your 200) are 1:1 i think that might be a reason they are unstable their trying to push the motor way too hard and its screwing with the controllers but thats just a theory. so if you look at the links what im trying to do is replace the motor and control board completely with a vfd and 3 phase ac motor rated at 2 hp @ 3600 rpm so a 2:1 ratio would give me ~7200 rpm and a 3:1 would be ~10800 rpm. and that would not be pushing the motor past its 3600 rpm rated max

[urbanimports02]

ok, so when you double the rpm, dont you half the hp and torque? i dont think the spindle would handle a tic over 7200rpm...and yes fish the smithy is a little more money, but includes more on the pc and control side. it is a true turn key machine and is about $2k more then i paid for my machine all in with coolant system, pc installed in cd100 etc. nothing seems masked in there price, or controler for that matter. the smithy comes with a tool box, key board, monitor etc. that stuff all starts to add up. so i guess once i added those items, it puts me at $1500 saved over the smithy, plus shipping would be less from smithy as there is no customs to pay. i guarantee the problems i have had have cost me more then $1500!

[tjd10684]

its a tricky thing, cause youve got one group wanting everything for pennies, and another who will just skip over to a vmc for reliability. the guy in between who's both rational and budget strapped seems a rare breed.

i think thats where im at i would love to have a HASS super mini mill2 but i just cant swing 50k for a hobby shop. maybe some day i can but not now.

[urbanimports02]

dynoray, mind posting info/link to the ac motor you used on your nm200? is it a standard 3600rpm motor? are you going to gear it faster or???

[tjd10684]

ok, so when you double the rpm, dont you half the hp and torque? i dont think the spindle would handle a tic over 7200rpm...

yes you would half torque but i think hp is hp. even if that is the case i still think it will be way more reliable than whats in there now don't you agree. and thats what were going for in this adventure reliability. as for the spindle i would like to disagree but when i really think about reality your probably right maybe then it would be better to have a 2:1 gear and 1:1 gear for torque to spin a nice face mill

[urbanimports02]

hp is a mathematical derivative of torque, so lost torque is lost hp, but you have a 145, so ending up with 1hp from a 2hp motor would probably be kick a$$! would likely spank the dc motor you have. how about a link to this tekno spindle? sounds like the ebay setup. i have heard of them, but never looked into it as i need the power to hog with 1/2 and 3/4" em's. i just want a reliable 6k rpm. my 4k rpm ac setup has been bullet proof(knock on wood)

[rowbare]

hp is a mathematical derivative of torque, so lost torque is lost hp, but you have a 145, so ending up with 1hp from a 2hp motor would probably be kick a$$! would likely spank the dc motor you have. how about a link to this tekno spindle? sounds like the ebay setup. i have heard of them, but never looked into it as i need the power to hog with 1/2 and 3/4" em's. i just want a reliable 6k rpm. my 4k rpm ac setup has been bullet proof(knock on wood)

Horsepower is a linear function of torque and speed (Horsepower = torque X rpm / 5252). If you have a 2HP motor running at its rated speed, regardless of the ratio, you will get 2HP (minus transmission losses) at the spindle. If you gear up to get a higher spindle speed, you will get less torque at the spindle and if you gear down to get a lower spindle speed, you will get more torque.

Things get interesting with VFDs. With a sensorless vector VFD, induction motors are essentially constant torque devices below their rated speed. Above their rated speed, they are constant HP devices. So if you are running a motor at half its rated speed, you will only get half the HP. The lesson here is that if you have two speed ranges which overlap, you will get better metal removal rates using the low range when your speed is in the overlap range.

BLDC motors have different characteristics and typically can put out more torque at low speeds than they do at high speeds.

bob

[tjd10684]

Interesting, thanks for the info. so if i went for the 1:1 and 2:1 and needed 4000 rpm i would be better of running the motor slightly over the rated rpm rather than jumping to the 2:1 and running it at 2000. ok that makes sense. the more im thinking about it the more im liking the 2 speed 2 hp setup that should make the spindle a beast for what i usually do. the unfortunate side effect of more power here is that now im going to want to upgrade the steppers in the future or maybe even go servo

[Dynoray]

dynoray, mind posting info/link to the ac motor you used on your nm200? is it a standard 3600rpm motor? are you going to gear it faster or???

No need to gear faster, it's a 3850 rated RPM at 60HZ, max recommended RPM is 5400RPM, I have tested it to 7000RPM and it's silky smooth but running 6000+ will likely shorten the life but what the heck, it's $380US so if I have to replace it every 6 months thats fine.
WAY more power and much smoother then the original 3HP DC.
See attachment for the motor specs.
I'm using a Teco EV7300 sensorless vector drive with it, $300 and you also need a C or D flange mount kit which was $18.
If you do go this route, make sure you get the EV7300 and not the CV7300 VFD. The CV doesn't have PE (ground) on the input voltage or out to motor were as the EV does. I bought a CV first but ended up getting an EV to have a complete grounded circuit, safer and if something does short, it grounds through the ground circuit, not through the way/linear guides or operator to ground.

If you go this route, I'll send you a clear wiring diagram so you can wire it up in 5 min.
Ray

[tjd10684]

so i decided last night. i bought the gs2 drive and a 2 hp motor. i also found a guy with a Bridgeport that will let me use his machine to make the adapter plate for the motor. so were good to go replacing the crappy drive with a more reliable (or at least more readily available) drive with almost double the hp. all i have to do now is figure out the pullys i decided to go with a 1.5:1 ratio i think this will give me the best all around performance, given the lack of space inside the head of the mill