Interest in Lathe retrofit

[NC Cams]

I have several Fanuc 5T powered lathes. Illness and fatigue has set in (I'm sick n tired of dealing with 25+ year old flakey electronics).

Interested in hearing from ANYONE who's either done their own retrofit of a Fanuc 5T or a decent size LATHE with the Ajax system. The Ajax site seems to have a lot of mill type applications and customer testimonials but not so much on lathes.

Most certainly the factory will vouch for it's performance - I'm looking for first hand experience. You know, real life unbiased stuff like:

support issues, ease of use, quirks, service, praises, rants, satisfaction, regrets, whatever.....

The wiring issue doesn't bother me as I've already redone that due to having to fix up hacked up 5T wiring butchered up by the former owner.

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[Shizzlemah]

I used a centroid retrofit pacakge and wasn't impressed. It is a milling controller and I found a lot of the turning functions were cobbled together.

Cutter comp is hokey- hope you like programming to the center of your insert radius. Doesn't support a barfeed - no interlock logic, etc. Be prepared to launch a few bars through the backside of the machine...

Especially considering the fact that it was a 'package' led me to believe they had built one or two before and tried them out. Clearly not the case. They would not supply me with params for the application (package,mind you!) and there was some trail and error. For nearly a year the X jog buttons on the pendant worked the wrong way. The X+ button moved X- and vice versa. It took nearly a year to get them to BELIEVE that was really happening. They also stiffed me on some options and it was a waste of $15k. Glad I only did one machine as a tester.

In all honesty this was a centroid pacakge. But if you can get the same thing from ajax, just save the money and instead go for a nice, sharp stick in the eye.

I have several Fanuc 5T powered lathes. Illness and fatigue has set in (I'm sick n tired of dealing with 25+ year old flakey electronics).

Interested in hearing from ANYONE who's either done their own retrofit of a Fanuc 5T or a decent size LATHE with the Ajax system. The Ajax site seems to have a lot of mill type applications and customer testimonials but not so much on lathes.

Most certainly the factory will vouch for it's performance - I'm looking for first hand experience. You know, real life unbiased stuff like:

support issues, ease of use, quirks, service, praises, rants, satisfaction, regrets, whatever.....

The wiring issue doesn't bother me as I've already redone that due to having to fix up hacked up 5T wiring butchered up by the former owner.

[NC Cams]

Thank you EVER SO MUCH FOR THE REPLY!!!!! Hmmmm. I wonder if anybody from Ajax is still visiting the site and has a response???

I saw a similiar post dealing with Camsoft in that they (meaning the vendor of the package) had "issues" with the lathe package which seemed to remain unsolved and/or the installer was unsatisfied.

Not being software literate and merely interested in installing an updated controller and making parts (instead of messing with software glitches ad nauseum), it looks more and more like the performance of "high end" lathe side CNC retrofits leaves a lot to be desired. I realize that NC lathes are a smaller part of the business as opposed to NC mills BUT if you're selling it that way, the darn package had better perform.

Interestingly, I have since the original post, contacted Ajax. Even though they indicate having done "Fanuc retrofits", it rapidly turned into "your stuff won't work, blah blah, buy our new servos".

Having worked with DC servo's and PWM servo controls for some time, I failed to see how MY 90 volt DC like new servo motors WITH a 2000ppr encoder (not resolver) and 12 amp draw wouldn't work with their 140 volt, 15 amp servo amp that, too accepted a comparable encoder input.... Moreover, I'm STILL waiting for their rep to call and for the Ajax side to send me the information they promised.

Before I dump that kind of money on a new system that clearly seems to offer bull instead of service/support, I'll spend the time to dink with my Fanuc stuff some more.

Dealing with old connnections in a lathe controller that DOES work (when the electrons don't get lost) is surely better than dealing with an all new system that is poorly supported and improperly/inadequately developed. Maybe it is true, they don't build 'em like they used to.....

Has anyone HAD luck with a servo based, non-LPT port CNC lathe retrofit that WORKS and works like it is supposed to?????????

[Shizzlemah]

I posted a threading Q months ago here and nobody has even posted a reply. It was another case of the cycle not working like it is supposed to.

I was unable to program finish & spring passes and leadout on a thread cycle. The only way was to set the machine parameters. Works okay, until the next part needs a different setting... No spindle load meter. No realtime display of following error. The spindle drive they supplied is SO wimpy that CSS is useless.

Have you looked into a fanuc retrofit? There are some decent shops around and they are very well supported. I got a quote of $22k for my machine - that was new spindle&servo drives and all. I elected the centroid because lead time was 2 week versus 6 months for the fanuc retrofitter.

[Al_The_Man]

From one of the people here that does RetroFits for a living here are a few points:
If the machine does not have usable motors and drives then it is definately worth going to one of the large companies, personally I prefer Mitsubishi over Fanuc, not necessarily because of the product (although it is comparable), because Mitsubishi are easier to deal with and phone support is really fast.
I have done Fanuc, Mitsubishi, Camsoft, plus many in-house designed stand-alone systems based around Acroloop and Galil.
For anyone considering using a package they have not used before, or have not done a retofit before, believe me, there is no quick way, there is going to be a learning curve, Most of this will be doing the machine interface, PLC/PMC R,S,T,M codes and tool changers etc.
The upside of using a complete package is that the CNC G codes & Canned cycles, etc, are already written, the motors and drives match the system and integration is minimal. This equates to Less time taken for the retro.
There are good systems like Fagor, which I believe still have the option of using your own drives, they are also a good company.
Mainly like anything else with CNC, you get what you pay for.
My 2¢.
Al.

[NC Cams]

Al:

I have 3 fully functional Fanuc 5T's. The ONLY reason I want to update is because of the flakey wiring that is 30 years old. Latent corrosion and loose connectors results in something NOT going ready every so often. Simple case of illness and fatigue (I'm sick and tired of dealing with flakey old TTL level controls that have to be sent halfway across the country for affordable but good service or troubleshooting a loose wire burried someplace).

I simply can't afford to have a turn key retrofitter do the work due to the shape/performance of my current business model. I simply figured that in lieu of the explosive growth of DIY cnc, a PC based system would be bolt-on able. Sadly that doesn't seem to be the case.

In my case, I have a fully built/developed and engineered CNC with encoders, spindle drive, everything - only tired/dated electronics. Technically I have identified and can access EVERY single signal that a controller needs to run in full CNC mode - the darn lathes already do it only with 30 year old controllers. You'd think that one could remove the old control, rehook the appropriate signals/power lines and refire the thing after some minor tweaking.

I have 2 axis worth of properly sized and functional DC servos (Model 0, 90vdc, 12 amp) with 2000 count encoders and matched power transformers - nothing wierd or trick as current technology goes. I have a 10hp DC spindle drive that only needs 0-10v speed and proper relay applied logic (proper M code to trigger existing relay bands) for direction to make it run. Nothing at all trick or special. I can make it run manually with jumper wires.

Yet, when I talk to these "bolt in DIY retrofitters" who claim to offer complete canned cycles for Hardinge and Fanuc lathes, I get:

"...your servos won't work...you need ours...",
"... you'll have to write software...." (what am I paying you for???) and
"...your motor and servo are special matched won't work with our servo amps" (having reverse engineered several servo amps and studied the DC drives till I'm blue in the face, I know such statements are categorically B/S - when you get obvious B/S fed to you, would YOU trust the vendor????).

Maybe a purchasing agent will buy that line but a degreed engineer who knows about mechanical and electical interfacing isn't going to buy such B/S.

Then I get/see comments about these "lathe retrofits" as being nothing more than mill controls that are fitted to lathes but that is NOT quite what goes on (Thanks to those who responded - I really appreciate your candor!!!).

Several members reported that service support for simple stuff was poor or non-existant. Threading doesn't work, jogs are backwards, months of e-mail exchanges with tech depts that are exercises in futility, etc. Hmmm. Really makes you want to do business with them?!?!?!

Heck, I even had the high end MDSI guys in (they are based in my town) and the first words out of their mouth is "you'll have to write software" - spend $3K plus for their box and their "software" and then you have to write more. Sorry, no. I make cams, YOU make software and if you've done it before, it shouldn't have to be done from scratch as if this was the first time you ever saw a CNC lathe.

The reason why Microsoft got SO big was that (even as bad as they are), their software AT LEAST did the basics and did it well enough to satisfy the 90 percentile of the market when the average guy who threw it at his machine. How difficult can that be to an experienced programmer who supposedly has done it before with other comparable retrofits?????

I'd contend that the CNC guys who sell DIY retrofit kits would do as well as Bill Gates and Co. when/if they made software/kits that did simple turning, spacing and threading (while looking for limits and home switches) which is ALL I'm looking to do.

Haven't found any that fit that description yet and there doesn't seem to be any affordable candidates emerging... Looks like its time to go back to romancing the Fanucs some more.

[Shizzlemah]

Have you looked at a PC based control? You have the performance,functions,IO mapped out well enough. Perhaps Mach2/3 supports the Galil driver board which will handle driving voltage/position servos (not the step/direction used in the hobby&home market)

I did a PC retrofit before the centroid. Figuring I'd get the performance without spending the time... ugh.

[Al_The_Man]

Perhaps Mach2/3 supports the Galil driver board which will handle driving voltage/position servos (not the step/direction used in the hobby&home market)

Oh, I so wish they did, right now I cannot sell my customers a through-the-parallel-port system.

Heck, I even had the high end MDSI guys in (they are based in my town) and the first words out of their mouth is "you'll have to write software" - spend $3K plus for their box and their "software" and then you have to write more. Sorry, no. I make cams, YOU make software and if you've done it before, it shouldn't have to be done from scratch as if this was the first time you ever saw a CNC lathe

This is what I was trying to explain, even the highest end systems manuf., let alone the DIY cannot sell you an off-the shelf-package.
The reason is due to the unique-ness of every machine.
The CNC control side CAN be pre-written, but the machine interface that involves all the S,M codes is different for every make of machine.
The 'PLC' side of the machine has always had to be written by someone, either by yourself or you pay someone (retrofitter etc) to do it.
In some cases they can supply a 'Generic' case that can be used and adapted.
But I don't see any way around it, Unless you can find someone who has done EXACTLY the same machine that you have and is willing to part with the Data.
The bottom line problem is, the suppliers of systems do not have a product that can be used to drop directly into every one of thousands of different machines that are out there without some sort of adaption.
And then there is the re-wiring...
Al.

[NC Cams]

Re: S & M code writing (sounds kinky).

The 5T (I'm told) was a fairly simple and basic control in its day. It has 3 I-O sections. All I-O's are merely NO/NC relays (output) or the input to a relay coil which interfaces internally to the TTL NC.

One section takes all the limit, jog, e-stop and other input controls. Pretty simple to interface as the lathe builder had to make THEIR wiring work with the Fanuc logic in the Fanuc prescribed manner. So much for code writing.

The "S" function is merely a 10 bit signal fed to a D-A converter. Set the S in G code and the analog signal is fed to a prewired 10h DC spindle motor drive. Again, pursuant to Fanuc software and again using their logic.

Trip the proper M codes ("motor run" in "this direction" outputs via N-O relays on NC) and the spindle drive does the rest as told. Again, from a pre-configured relay logic board. The stop codes (N-C contacts) trip and shut stuff down with e-stop or CNC logic when the proper M codes are set by the Fanuc. Like I said, the whole mess can be made to run with jumper wires - as simple a digital logic as there is.

The servos are pretty much driven and fed back as one would expect using contemporary TTL levels. The NC connects the two and itegrates them to the prefit spindle encoder which has timing signal to do threading.

It would seem that (asside from HOME switch inputs that I found strangely missing on the retro controllers I looked at), wiring connections in the proper sequence would/should interface with properly written fundamental PLC operating "code" and the machine should run.

Tell me what you want in the way of an input signal and I can pretty much "live" with your methodology for turning, spacing and threading.

I think the problem here is that people are looking at this as taking a dumb lathe and "retrofitting" a controller to it with no existing locic. This is/was already done.

The relay/ladder logic is DONE.

The system is already NC controlled and has a fully functionaly albeit alzheimer aflicted (at times) controller. The mere fact the thing runs at its age is probably more than one should expect.

As far as the rewiring, BTDT.

The former owner hacked it up (literally) and ALL the output wiring from the 5T to the spindle drive and servos and "iron" had to be retraced, reconnected and/or redone. Hence, all the M00, M03 etc's and the S's and the limits, etc have already been found and retraced - both logic and wire connections.

Since the original the lathe maker had to wire the machine to fit the Fanuc M and S code logic, that's already figured out and been done. Oh, and I have ALL the factory wiring diagrams and relay logic schematics.

Maybe I'm oversimplifying it and maybe it IS too simple (BTW, one local retrofit engineer admitted my machine was TOO simple - no profit in base machine retros).

I, too, am one of those clients who will not run off the limited I-O's afforded by a parallel port. I also will NOT use a Windows based control system if at all possible - I want simplicity, not DLL madness.

[Shizzlemah]

The I/Os are not a problem. If a parallel port is a turn off due to the limited number of I/O lines, you can easly add aditional ports.

Agreed that windows would NOT be a choice I would make. I havent looked at the EMC control for a while, but its very stable and linux based. Not to be confused with the clowny 'my first linux' offered by centroid, running their dos code (and it hicoughs and burps at differences between CR and LF)

As to the lack of home switches, some retrofits will only use a travel limit switch. They will cruise into the switch at a low speed, then back off until the encoder index pluse triggers. You can software define the coords around that point that triggers.

This system is decent for lathes where you can usually return to X+Z+ safely. No problem parking a lathe at that point. It's slow and awkward on mills to creep to X+Y+Z+. I like to park tables centered and supported, not all the way to the extreme of its travel.


If the ladder logic is done and working - and the servos and drives are happy - why not just bold on a 0T panel and call it a day ?

[NC Cams]

Schizzlemah: your comments re:Centroid is seemingly another of a similiar vein that I got about their system. After talking to their sales guy the other day, i've all but decided NOT to use them.

Between logic that can spit parts out of lathe, X- and X+ directions that don't work and then B/S when it came to interfacing fairly simple DC servos, it has become apparent that I need to look elsewhere's.

Huflungdung reported problems with Camsoft too - software and/or servo amp issues. Turned into classic case where software guy points to amp guy who points to servo guy who points to software guy. Ultimately code had to be written to do simple thread turning that the "lathe code" should EASILY do. I categorically refuse to write bridge code to fix software deficiencies when I buy software - do you have to write code to get Word or Excel or IE to work???.

What categorically amazes me, no STUPEFIES ME, is the fact that Bridgeport created a single BMDC card that ran VMC's, mills and supposedly turning centers.

More stupefying is the fact that it ran off of a comparatively lame 486 ISA buss'd DOS computer IN 1995. Yet, with better and faster computes, the same can't be done today.

Like I said, STUPEFIED.

My Eztrak mill simply works and does so with the ease and grace of what I need my lathes to do. Whomever wrote that code and/or created those cards is sorrily missed in the industry. They are defiinitely laboring at the wrong business (pay attention EMI).

They (you) could be making a comfortable living doing DIY retrofit kits with an elegantly simple system. From what's been reported about Camsoft and Centroid/Ajax, these fine vendors had better hope people as sharp as those who did the BMDC and the Bridgeport code don't resurface with a clean system that uses contemporary code for the hardware available today....

If only SOMEWHERE/SOMEHOW/SOMEONE could create a viable BMDC but contemporary and LEGAL knock-off and offer it anew. For some applications, a classic simple system is all that's needed.

In retrospect, an Ajax system costs $2800 just to start. The BMDC card itself can be bought new for about $1400 (parts total is a tiny fraction of that). Add the AXSBOB and AUXBOB and you add another $50 tops. Add an appropriate servo amp (Gecko, Galil, Rutex, whatever) and you'rr close to Ajax dollar wise.

If I could buy a BMDC based system today, I'd do so in a heartbeat. Why? because it simply worked.... Maybe not good enough for Bridgeport/Hardinge but surely plenly good enough for my simple needs.

It's not only the I-Os limits anymore (even if/when you add more cards), parallel ports don't communicate in real time anymore with XP systems like they did with DOS/Win 9x . The lack of ISA busses keeps some PLC controls (BMDC card for one) from being used anymore. The industries lack of DOS support for PCI buss sort of forces you into the Windows quagmire.

In light of the fact that asside from the old 5T controls that have fully functional ladder burned into proms - all that's needed is/was I's to read and the O's to drive (which are set with a prewired external relay board), I have fully functional and LIKE new 30 y/o lathes (came out of a trade school).

If I knew what an OT panel was or who made it and if they were affordable and retrofitable and user friendly to the DIY'er, I'd consider it. I can afford $2-4K for a retrofit of an otherwise sound CNC lathe. I simply can't afford $10-22K to have an integrator sell me a Centroid or Camsoft 'nightmare'.

Looks like its time to romance the 5T's some more. Perhaps I can forstall/reverse any further alzheimers via TLC of connections and other "tricks" I've learned via my prior resurrection efforts done to-date.

Thanks to all those who responded in P/M and in posts. Your insight was VERY helpful. To those who are looking at doing a CNC lathe, be forewarned, it is a FAR cry from doing a mill, even though it shouldn't be.

[Shizzlemah]

0T panel , as in Fanuc 0T. Possibly the *easiest* to integrate. May need new generation ladder logic- but that's pretty simple as you said the IO is quite basic. Spindle,coolant, probably turret indexing, etc.

Also a Yaskawa control may also interface pretty well. If you get a real lathe controller with an installed base of millions of units, the software issues disappear.

$2-4k seems like a really really tight budget. I doubt there is a commercial solution in that range. Try the Linux / EMC control software for starters, roll your own step/dir hardware (geckos?) and be ready to write a lot of code. It's a solid platform that I run on a mill, but when last I checked it was lacking spindle encoder feedback and lathe cycles. The motion code is pretty solid, and the I/Os are good.

[NC Cams]

This seems to be my hitch: I have all the stuff where the profit is made. All I need is a controller - I can pretty much interface to an existing ladder logic if it was written for a decenct, full featured Fanuc NC lathe as mine is/are.

Having talked with a number of suppliers, they all want to sell me the WHOLE system - see prior post #6. My systems invoiced out at nearly $40k when new in 79 as they had the optional memory cards, optional DC drive motor spindle for variable speed, spindle encode for threading, DC servos (not resolvers), and twin 4 position (F & R) tool changers. Real spiffy machines in 1979 and still like new.

This was why I looked for a PC system - since my my 1996 BPT had a pretty full featured DOS system for the time, I figured its 2006, somebody should have something as good or better and fairly cheap and comparably featured in 2006 for DIY retrofit. Doesn't seem to be the case.

Step and direction drives seem to be a step (no pun intended) backward to a that where the servos/encoders feed back directly to the controller. Huflungdung ran into a amp/software/servo issue with Camsoft that I'd attribute to the right hand not knowing what the left one's doing and/or incomplete lathe software.

I don't know machine code and I'm too busy trying to make ends meet with my business to take the time to even consider writing let alone learning how to write ladder logic code. Even the guy who services my Fanucs can't and won't do ladder logic.

The more I look the more I"m finding out what appears to be the simple truth: I may NOT be able to improve upon let alone match what I have in the way of PC controlled retrofit - as dumb as that may seem....

I wish the guys who created the Bridgeprot BMDC system were entrepreneurial enough to do DIY cnc hard and software for mills and lathes. Where are you now that we softwared challenged but technically adept DIY'ers are who need you????

I will give Fanuc a call and perhaps Yasakawa, but as you say, my budget is pretty slim and the stuff I need isn't the stuff that retrofitting profits are made with - I already have the high profit potential stuff....

[Ron22]

As another person that does convertion of machins to PC based system I agree alot with what Al said. The bigest problem with an off the shelf system is every machine is a little different. Plus in the middle customers al most allway what a few things changed to have the machine work better for them in there aplication.
For example Delta Tau has NC software that has most of what is needed for a Lathe or Mill convertion but there is still set that has to be done. You have to set it up to work with the drives and motors. Set up all the I/O. And write a little code to make every thing work together.

The more I look the more I"m finding out what appears to be the simple truth: I may NOT be able to improve upon let alone match what I have in the way of PC controlled retrofit - as dumb as that may seem....

I disagree with this there are good PC-Based controler cards out there. I would use aDelta Tau. Sound like Al would most likly use a Acroloop and Galil. They are just not plug and play there is a little work need to make work with different machines.

[NC Cams]

Well gang, after reading and absorbing all the above, and doing more research than a sane person should consider, I've come to the following conclusion:

They don't/can't make stuff like they used to. Here's why:

My 5T's have software encoded in proms. Same identical control only various software on EPROMS (that used customer input parameters to set "options") which changed from machine to machine.

HOWEVER, it should be noted that I've scored a number of spare m/b's from different 5T's from different lathes and plugged them in.

Surprise, even with different software (IE: ladder logic) from different machines, the basic funtions WORKED with no recoding or ladder logic manipulation.

As long as the S and M logic O's were hooked properly to the EXTERNAL relay logic, no recoding was needed - heck I couldn't do recoding if I had to cuz nobody at Fanuc knew anything about the 5T's when I called.....

The basic M's and S's needed to run the hard wired external relay logic and D-A speed signal to the spindle drive worked the same. Moreover, the basic machine functions (turn, space, threading) still worked - and all with NO reprogramming or recoding.

For grins, I contacted my Bridgeport rep as my Extrak had a PC that was doing some pretty sophisticated stuff. He helped me sort thru my EzTrak mill and pointed me to some folks who sent me unpublished documentation about the BMDC PLC card that runs it during a recent tuning thrash.

Surprise suprise. The exact same ISA card was used in mills, lathes and VMC's. The only change was software burned to BMDC's proms and the DOS (yes DOS) program that the card runs on via ISA bus.

Same D-A +/-10vdc signal industry standard servo amps and same I-O channels. Yet vastly different yet PROPER output for the specific application (mill or VMC or lathe).

Imagine that, a 1995 vintage controller that runs off of a 486 66mhz PC and ISA bus. And it could simultaneously run 2, 3 or 4 axis lathe, mill or VMC PLUS it set S and selected M codes from DOS.

Imagine that. Load and run with minimal (correction, NO code writing asside from the clearly generic and VERY typical I-O's. Say it ain't so!!!)

Haven't done pin for pin check of lathe vs mill vs VMC versions of AXSBOB's and AUXBOB's. But since the same BMDC PLC was used for all with PC based system, one could assume the same I-O's were used to and from the same plug-in break out/in boards.

Hmmmm. How could a DOS based program do in 1995 with fixed PLC pinout I-O's that can't be done today??? Better programming??? Better engineering??? Better O/S??? Better PC??? You can probably guess my beliefs.

From what I"ve seen, the BPT floppy loads the O/S (DOS 6.0) and the DOS program that subsequently runs the machine with common BMDC hardware.

It is my understanding that the BMDC is a PLC that has different code burned into common PROMS to make it VMC, lathe or mill compatible - shades of exactly what goes on with my 1979 Fanuc.

With TIC I agree that "...They (contollers) are just not plug and play there is a little work need to make work with different machines...".

If done cleverly and properly, I contend that such work could/would/should consisting merely of popping in different proms and parameters (Fanuc method) and/or different proms and floppy with software (BPT method). The code logic should be strong enough to NOT need to be rewritten unless someone wants something REAL special - I don't consider turning, spacing and/or threading to be real special.

The brilliance of a good design is in its flexibility and adaptability to its operating environment over time. Looks like something other than good design and programming was responsible for Bridgeport's demise and their failure to gain more market share with their PC based BMDC "system".

Yet current mill controllers have trouble with lathes and 2006 PC's can't do what 1995 versions could. Yep, they sure can't do stuff like they used to anymore. I can't for the life of me understand why not....

[arturod]

I retrofitted a Hardinge HC CNC lathe that had an old bandit control. The machine was working OK with the bandit control, but I had the same problem as you have. Dealing with old electronics and an awkward control (compared with what Mach3 can do.) This lathe runs fully automatic with 10 feet power bar feed and an 8 post tool turret.

Here is a brief description of what I did and how much it coasted:

I used a PC with two parallel ports. I used two cnc4pc bidirectional boards (that I make and sell). The second one was set to use pins 2-9 for input, so I had a total of (5+13) 18 pins for input, and (12+4) 16 pins for output. The cost of these cards is $26 each. I also used an A4 Power supply (that I also sell) for providing 5 and 12vdc that is used to power all the circuits. These power supply costs around $29.

I used the original power supply and motors, but, replaced the tach and resolves with E2 2000CPR encoders for x axis and 1000 CPR for y axis. These encoders are about $32 each. I also replaced the old drivers with G302 from Geckodrive, this cost $114 each. I also replaced the stepper driver that runs the motor for the tool turret with a G201, also costs $114.

I replaced the nice 500CPR encoder that was mounted on the spindle with a C3 - Index pulse card (that I also sell). This card costs $16. With this index pulse I am able to thread and run a closed loop cycle on my spindle. I replaced the awkward speed control with a Hitachi VFD that costs $330, and also used the C6 – Variable Speed control board (that I sell). This board costs $27. With this board you configure your spindle just as you would a step and direction driver, and with the index pulse feedback you have 100% control of your spindle’s speed.

I also replaced the mechanical home switches with the same Index pulse card that I used on the spindle. That way I get a very accurate homing. For the turret home I still used the original mechanical relay that came with the machine. There is no need for precision here, since the turret has a turret lock that holds the turret in place.

I also used the C5 – Solid State Relay Board (that I sell for about $46) to control; turret lock, coolant pump, collect closer and power bar feed, and the cut-off tool.

I also use a C4 – Safety Charge Pump (that I sell for $17) to control the system along with the e-stop switch.

I also installed a 150CPR encoder from us digital (about $32) that acts as a manual pulse generator.

The only thing that I miss from the old control was the speed of the servos. In terms of control I lost nothing and gained lots of features. I currently plan on installing proximity switches to program tool checks o other things. The total investment was extremely low compared to the benefits that I achieved.

Arturo Duncan
http://cnc4pc.com

[NC Cams]

Dear Arturo:

You ENTIRE episode is pretty much what I was looking to do...

Except,

I really need to retain the servos because of both the speed and torque they produce = I need to retain their capability to even hope to machine the cam lobe shapes we're looking to cut. More importantly, I have a squeaking tight budget and servo replacement is not on it.

I've yet to find a system that will interface servo feedback to a PC via an aftermarket based retrofit system outside of the "suspects" already mentioned - the OEM BMDC system doesn't count.

Moreover, and pursuant to other posts AND exchanges with the folks at Mach, they can't/won't deal with servo position feedback anytime soon either.

What I'd consider to be "performance deficiency issues" have already been reported/discussed with the "suspect" candidates.

EVERYTHING else on the 3 machines is prewired and ready (IE: 10 hp DC spindle drive, shaft, encoders, limits/prox switches, output/ladder logic relay cards, servos, etc) - the only work I was limit my involvement with dealt with connections inside the control cabinet to duplicate the features I have - I'm not trying to get greedy or create an all new machine.

Musing: the now emerging brilliance of the defunct BMDC card is/was the fact that it did all the interfacing on a lowly ISA card that ran on a DOS system.

The downside of the BMDC is/was that it used analog +/-10vdc to provide speed and direction output to the servo amps - a technique that is pretty much osolete I'm told. Too bad it isn't aftermarket available and interfaceable with contemporary Galil/Gecko/Rutex drives.... Talk about a one card, drop in CNC!!!

If I were in a different position, the Mach/CNC4PC solution would be QUITE viable and definitely appealing.

Thanks for the reply/contribution.

PS: I hope it does not appear that I'm "whining". In retrospect, this thread has dealt heavily and it detail with two not so often discussed/attempted parts of CNC:

a. System integration planning
b. Lather retrofitting.

In view of what goes on with CNC milling, I simply figured a lathe retor would be just as easy. Clearly it isn't, and I have all the hard integration already DONE for me.

I hope the exchanges provided deeper guidance and insight to the super critical planning and investigation phase of CNC projects.

Like the Stones once said, "You can't always get what you want....blah blah blah.... just might find you'll get what you need..."

Starting to look like its time I need to move on with reviving what I have....

[One of Many]

Interesting thread. Funny that others opinions of the Centroid lathe hack was exactly the same as mine! Dang how I wish I had known......

I do agree that there should be a basic format for controlling motion when it comes to lathes. They all turn, slide and sync. The external hardware might need some custom attention, but parameter based variables shouldn't be so locked up. Encoder feedback and servo amp drivers in terms of generic I/O still have standards that are non-proprietary. I am sure there can be a bit of a conspiracy in how OEM's want only their systems to integrate to knock out competition of mixed systems. As if the benefit of narrowly compatible technology is worth the exorbitant cost. Chances are with a low user base and short run product life, you will be replacing the whole system again when something does fail.

IMHO, the fastest way to kill a good thing is a tightly controlled closed book policy. They would rather sell a few systems at a highly inflated price than a gazillion systems at a widely available user affordable price. That is no way to gain or maintain market share to ensure the products future development, yet still support the older systems.


The same type of board CNC4Pc sells for under $50, Fanuc and others in commercial industrial sector would expect $200+.

The BPT PC based systems used the MB primarily as the buss communication for disk, display and com port path ways between these systems and the BMDC board. As a motion controller system, the PC MB board did nothing but supply power. The BMDC does all the real work.


DC

[NC Cams]

Note to DC: That's what bugs me about the BMDC

Essentially the same PLC card, same O/S (DOS no less) and same IO pins could run a lathe, mill or VMC with ultimately 4 axis and S and M switching too.

Best of all, it could do ALL THAT with only software change at PC end in concert with different flash of a PROM on the PLC end with a DOS O/S. Makes entirely too much sense.

Profitability??? Hmmm, same basic control card covered 95% of market. You simply throw generic magnetized floppys, lazer fried plastic crackers and/or electrified plastic coated silicon centepedes at it and charge for the "difficult upgrade"??? Sounds real profitable to me.

When I thought my BMDC went bad, I priced a new one. I nearly choked at a $1400 quote from Hardinge for a board with maybe $50 worth of hdwe. After seeing what Centroid and Camsoft want, that's cheap!!!

I'd buy a functionaly aftermarket one tomorrow especially if it could do what it did and with what it did it with (DOS and essentially a dead cheap PC and dual boot to Windows if you need to access LAN).

I"ve since learned that the creators of BMDC who's whereabouts are known either can't or won't ever resurrect it. Too bad as an aftermarket system would be a godsend to many a machine integrator and/or DIY CNC enthusiast...

Perhaps the local machine control engineer admitted a bit too much when his sales guy wasn't nearby, "yes, it is too simple and we can't make money doing simple stuff like that....".

Hmmmm. Make it complicated, razzle dazzle, fleece the customer. Don't they realize you can shear a sheep many times but only skin it once - especially if the potential victim knows what's going on????

Imagine. If somebody reverse engineered BMDC and came up with DIY-EZ-Mill (2D or 3D) or DIY-EZ-Turn (2D) or DIY-EZ-VMC (or 4 axis mill) code. This could be a "simple" aftermarekt or OEM package not unlike what which got so many machinists into CNC via the trusty Bridgeport machines.

Any sharp code writers out there who need help creating a business model that could set them up for a real laid back way to make a comfortable living selling tech toys??? If so, we need to talk...

As a maker of real high tech toys (racing cams) I can tell you that it is tremendous fun making people happy while concurrently making money doing so.

[pstockley]

For my hardinge conversion I will be using Mack IV, a Gecko G100 motion controller, Yaskawa AC servos and amps, Skyko Pixie step/dir to analogue boards, 2hp Vector drive and MODIO board for control panel integration. I think in a year or so when MachIV and the G100 has matured it will be a viable solution for industrial retrofits. No more parallel ports to worry about and it shifts the real-time critical stuff off the PC. Using the Pixie you can keep your amps and servos. The pixie controls the PID loop which in my mind is no worse than having the motion controller do this. Unless you want to add additional glass scale feedback.