Please review my X2 setup.

[TXFred]

I'm getting set to convert my X2 to a CNC machine. I've been plotting and planning for about a month now and I have a plan. I'd like to get feedback on my choices.

To convert the mill, I'll be using HossMachine parts. I plan to get the $149 kit with stock, hardware, stopblocks and Z axis mount. I'll order the rest of the parts according to Hoss's plans.

Once it's up and running, I'll likely add some sort of tool changer and a flood coolant enclosure.

I debated the CNCFusion kit, but it's more expensive and I don't think it will be as adaptable. I want to make large pieces that the existing table cannot handle, so I will eventually need to convert to a Hoss style Z collumn table. It makes sense to go with a setup that can be cheaply modified. And frankly, I don't like the way the CNCFusion kit puts the Z axis leadscrew off to the side where it tends to tilt the milling head, as well as being exposed to a lot of chips.

The electronics are where I really need the advice. Here's what I've worked out so far. I've decided to go overboard on the electronics, because at some point I will get rid of the X2 and get something bigger, perhaps a Bridgeport. When this happens, I don't want to have to buy my electronics all over again. Ideally, I'd simply replace the stepper motors and spindle control and keep everything else the same.

Breakout board - PMDX-132 http://www.pmdx.com/
Drivers - Gecko G203V http://www.geckodrive.com
Spindle control - PMDX-106 or 107
Steppers - Keling KL23H276-28-4B
Power supply - Keling KL-350-48 48V/7.3A

Does this seem like a reasonable setup?

Sincerely,
Frederic

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[Enraged]

I would think for the X2, the G203V is a bit overkill. Wouldn't the G540 be enough? You could save some money that way, and have a 4th axis driver if needed in the future too. It also has a breakout board built in.

[escott76]

I would think for the X2, the G203V is a bit overkill. Wouldn't the G540 be enough? You could save some money that way, and have a 4th axis driver if needed in the future too. It also has a breakout board built in.

I love my G540, but I almost wish I'd gone with separates. Higher voltage for one thing, which allows you to use a greater variety of motors, now and in the future. If the budget can stand it, and one doesn't mind hooking up their own break out solution, I can't see it as a bad thing.

[TXFred]

I looked hard at the G540. It is a very tempting piece of hardware, but in the end it seemed to have too many shortcomings.

From the manual,"All NEMA-17, most NEMA-23 and a few NEMA-34 motors are acceptable."

That worries me. The X2 is a NEMA-23 install, and an X3 needs a NEMA-34 for the Z axis. If I go to an even larger machine, the G540 isn't going to be up to the task.

The G540 also doesn't appear to have any way of controlling the spindle, at least not easily.EDIT: I just reread the specs, and this is incorrect. A VFD controller is built in.

if I'm wrong on this, please correct me. The G540 would save me about $400, so if I can make it work, it would be a good thing.

Cheers,
Fred

[Enraged]

there are a few people running the G540 with NEMA23 and NEMA34 motors on an X3 successfully. I think it just depends on what motors you choose.

[hoss2006]

You stated "I've decided to go overboard on the electronics, because at some point I will get rid of the X2 and get something bigger"
so If you plan on going any bigger than an X3 forget about the g540.
It is just capable of running an X3, you could use the G203's up to a tormach sized mill.
The g540 is great for an X2 and the Keling 381oz/in KL23H2100-35-4B are a great match.
The 270 oz/in motors you stated will be ok for the X2 X and Y but not for any mill bigger.
You would need to get bigger motors for whatever mill you upgrade to.
The g540 comes with spindle output but I have YET to see ONE single post from someone that hooked it up to control a spindle.
Cnc4pc C6 boards and Homann Design boards HAVE been shown to work.
Hoss

[TXFred]

First let me say thank you to all of you for the feedback. I'm rethinking my purchases as I go.

Hoss, do you mean that you've never heard of anyone succeeding at using the VFD controller on the G540, or just that nobody's ever bothered to try?

Cheers,
Frederic

[hoss2006]

Never read of anyone that ever said they tried and failed to get it to work.
Either no one has tried or no one that has tried and failed and posted saying so.
If anyone has successfully made it work, they just aren't sharing HOW they did it with anyone.
It's been around for a while now and they've sold tons of them, so surely if it was easy, it would have been done by now.
A Cnc4pc or Homann board are only $35ish so it's not a big deal if the g540's doesn't work.
It's still a deal with 4 axis' and integrated breakout board.
Hoss

[escott76]

You stated "I've decided to go overboard on the electronics, because at some point I will get rid of the X2 and get something bigger"
so If you plan on going any bigger than an X3 forget about the g540.
It is just capable of running an X3, you could use the G203's up to a tormach sized mill.
The g540 is great for an X2 and the Keling 381oz/in KL23H2100-35-4B are a great match.
The 270 oz/in motors you stated will be ok for the X2 X and Y but not for any mill bigger.
You would need to get bigger motors for whatever mill you upgrade to.
The g540 comes with spindle output but I have YET to see ONE single post from someone that hooked it up to control a spindle.
Cnc4pc C6 boards and Homann Design boards HAVE been shown to work.
Hoss

It's just a voltage out, 0-10v which is what most VFD's will take as input. Nothing difficult or complicated about it. The 540 is used a lot in smaller less expensive machines, which is also why you don't hear a whole bunch of people with VFD setups, most stick with the motor built into the mill and are either limited to it's controller, or one which is similar.
There are posts of people who have used the simple on/off controls on the 540 to "control" the spindle by turning on and off relays.

[hoss2006]

There are posts of people who have used the simple on/off controls on the 540 to "control" the spindle by turning on and off relays.

Yeah, i've read those too but you don't need a g540 for that, any output pin on any breakout board will do.
That's OK for a simple AC motor like on a Taig but it doesn't work on the X2.
Still waiting for someone that has a g540 on an X2 to share if they were/weren't able to
get spindle control working.
It's used as a selling point but it should be known that a specific controller is required to actually put it to use, if that's the case.
As I said it's a good deal even without it as the 2 boards I mentioned that DO work with the X2 controller are pretty cheap.
Hoss

[hoss2006]

Thanks for the order Frederic
Hoss

[escott76]

Yeah, i've read those too but you don't need a g540 for that, any output pin on any breakout board will do.
That's OK for a simple AC motor like on a Taig but it doesn't work on the X2.
Still waiting for someone that has a g540 on an X2 to share if they were/weren't able to
get spindle control working.
It's used as a selling point but it should be known that a specific controller is required to actually put it to use, if that's the case.
As I said it's a good deal even without it as the 2 boards I mentioned that DO work with the X2 controller are pretty cheap.
Hoss

I think you are somewhat confused on this. The feature as built was never intended to control an X2 spindle. It's meant to control a VFD, which will control the speed on a 3 phase motor. It is known if you know what a VFD is, but that's no different from anything else.
Although the OP is potentially looking at an X2, just because a feature doesn't work with one particular mill doesn't mean that it isn't of any value.

[TXFred]

I did some more thinking last night, and I'm thinking of using the G540.

Once I get it, the first thing I will do is attempt to get the spindle speed control to work. If I can't, then I will return it and purchase something else.

The larger Geckos and fancy breakout boards can wait for now. I'll need a new workshop before I go to a much larger machine, and that implies substantially more income than I have at the moment, so spending now to save in the future makes less sense.

And when I do make the move, the G540 can be retasked to CNC my lathe.

[escott76]

I did some more thinking last night, and I'm thinking of using the G540.

Once I get it, the first thing I will do is attempt to get the spindle speed control to work. If I can't, then I will return it and purchase something else.

The larger Geckos and fancy breakout boards can wait for now. I'll need a new workshop before I go to a much larger machine, and that implies substantially more income than I have at the moment, so spending now to save in the future makes less sense.

And when I do make the move, the G540 can be retasked to CNC my lathe.

Understand, there isn't a way to just wire the G540 to the stock spindle control board on the X2 with variable speed control. It wasn't designed this way, nor should you think of it as being able to be done. If that is your intent I'd simply not buy it rather than return it later.
What it does offer is the ability to output a 0-10v varying voltage proportional to the speed of the spindle. You would use this to drive a VFD or variable frequency drive, which would control a 3 phase motor. Or if you were familiar with the parts involved, use a microcontroller to convert the 0-10v signal to a 0-2ms wide pulse stream capable of controlling a hobby speed controller to drive a hobby brushless. That's the plan I have for mine, which I'm going to start this weekend.

[TXFred]

Understand, there isn't a way to just wire the G540 to the stock spindle control board on the X2 with variable speed control. It wasn't designed this way, nor should you think of it as being able to be done. If that is your intent I'd simply not buy it rather than return it later.
What it does offer is the ability to output a 0-10v varying voltage proportional to the speed of the spindle. You would use this to drive a VFD or variable frequency drive, which would control a 3 phase motor. Or if you were familiar with the parts involved, use a microcontroller to convert the 0-10v signal to a 0-2ms wide pulse stream capable of controlling a hobby speed controller to drive a hobby brushless. That's the plan I have for mine, which I'm going to start this weekend.

I know that the output won't run the motor directly.

My understanding is that the 0-10V signal will replace the existing potentiometer on the front of the mill, allowing the G540 to "turn the knob" on the existing motor speed control.

I expect that I will have issues in one place. The potentiometer on the X2 has the wiper and an on-off switch. I'll need to rig a way to have the G540 operate the on-off switch as well as simulate the potentiometer. I've got a spare pot at home, so I'll check how it's wired and see if I can fangle a circuit that will do the job.

Nobody has made this feature work, and nobody knows if it can even be made to work. I think it's worth it to me, and to the retailer, to risk one returned purchase versus the potential of a bunch of X2 and X3 users being able to buy G540's and knowing that there is a way to run the spindle with it.

And there is always the relay option for spindle control, which isn't as nice but has been proven to work. So there's a possibility that I'd get a G540, not get the VFD control working, but still elect to keep it.

Fred

[Enraged]

If you get it working, be sure to post pictures and a howto

[hoss2006]

I think you are somewhat confused on this. The feature as built was never intended to control an X2 spindle. It's meant to control a VFD, which will control the speed on a 3 phase motor. It is known if you know what a VFD is, but that's no different from anything else.
Although the OP is potentially looking at an X2, just because a feature doesn't work with one particular mill doesn't mean that it isn't of any value.

I'm not confused, it outputs 0-10V, the same range that a C6 board does which
varies the voltage to the mills controller the same as the pot does to vary the speed of the motor.
Newbies are told that it has spindle control built in, it is of LITTLE value if it won't work with any of the mills it's intended for
UNLESS they upgrade to a VFD and 3 phase motor.
Why spend the money going that route when a C6 board is only $33.
It's been asked before about the X2
Has Anyone used G540 to control spindle speed on the X2
with no answers.
So from now on when a newbie is told it has spindle control, they'll be made aware that it's not as simple as they might think.
Hoss

[TXFred]

Why spend the money going that route when a C6 board is only $33.

Correct me if I'm wrong. (It's happened to me once, so it might again.)

The C6 could be connected to the G540, but since the C6 needs step and direction signals, it would take up the fourth axis connection on the G540. Since I want the fourth axis connection for a fourth axis, the C6 isn't a good solution for me.

I'm trying to figure out why the G540 would be such a difficult item to connect to the mini-mill. It seems like it would be simple enough, so I'm assuming that nobody has made a serious attempt at it.

The only possible problem I see would be the fact that the pot on the mill also has a switch.

But Hoss, you've also dealt with that issue on your mill, yes? How did you handle it? Did you do something fancy with one of the C6's relays?

I'm going to crack open my mill's control box tonight and see what I can figure out. I suspect that I can just rig a switch to do the job of the switch on the pot, and I'll only need to trigger it for initial powerup or in the event of a spindle fault. I'll use a DPST switch and rig the other set of the poles to one of the limit switch inputs on the G540, so that the mill won't try to run with the spindle disabled.

Hopefully I'll have more info tomorrow.

Cheers,
Fred

[Enraged]

I'm not confused, it outputs 0-10V, the same range that a C6 board does which
varies the voltage to the mills controller the same as the pot does to vary the speed of the motor.
Newbies are told that it has spindle control built in, it is of LITTLE value if it won't work with any of the mills it's intended for
UNLESS they upgrade to a VFD and 3 phase motor.
Why spend the money going that route when a C6 board is only $33.
It's been asked before about the X2
Has Anyone used G540 to control spindle speed on the X2
with no answers.
So from now on when a newbie is told it has spindle control, they'll be made aware that it's not as simple as they might think.
Hoss

I saw you posted this also: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showpo...3&postcount=23

So if the C6 outputs 0-10V, and the G540 outputs 0-10V, couldn't the G540 be wired the same way as in your post?

[hoss2006]

Correct me if I'm wrong. (It's happened to me once, so it might again.)

The C6 could be connected to the G540, but since the C6 needs step and direction signals, it would take up the fourth axis connection on the G540. Since I want the fourth axis connection for a fourth axis, the C6 isn't a good solution for me.

I'm trying to figure out why the G540 would be such a difficult item to connect to the mini-mill. It seems like it would be simple enough, so I'm assuming that nobody has made a serious attempt at it.

The only possible problem I see would be the fact that the pot on the mill also has a switch.

But Hoss, you've also dealt with that issue on your mill, yes? How did you handle it? Did you do something fancy with one of the C6's relays?

I'm going to crack open my mill's control box tonight and see what I can figure out. I suspect that I can just rig a switch to do the job of the switch on the pot, and I'll only need to trigger it for initial powerup or in the event of a spindle fault. I'll use a DPST switch and rig the other set of the poles to one of the limit switch inputs on the G540, so that the mill won't try to run with the spindle disabled.

Hopefully I'll have more info tomorrow.

Cheers,
Fred

The C6 could use the G540's Output 1 and Output 2, the 4th axis wouldn't be affected.
This eliminates any chance of using the outputs for relays for other addons
but a 2nd parallel port and breakout board opens up a lot more options.
You set up the Spindle under ports and pins/motor outputs using the output pins for Step and Dir.
I still use the manual pot by switching between it and the C6 for controlling the motor with a DP3T.
See pic below.
Hoss