Howdy. A few beginner Qs, if I may...

[segal.arye]

WGH

Good night (morning?) everybody!

How are you guys? I'm new around here, so allow me to introduce myself first. My name is Arye Segal, and I'm a 22-year-old boy from Israel.

I've always been interested in metalworking and machining, but have never really got to learn any of these topics through. But now, after finishing my service for the army, I'm eager to start learning and machining!

I come to you guys in order to seek some advice. I've got a few questions, but any other words of wisdom you guys will be willing to pass my way are more than welcome!

1. After using Google I realized that for a beginner like me, bench-top machines will be the most suitable ones, budget- and quality-wise. What do you guys think? Also, how about second-handed equipment? Is that Kosher, or something I should not be getting myself into? (Currently, I'm planning on using my room as my shop. A good/bad idea in your opinion? :\)

2. From what I saw so far, a machine shop must have a lathe, a drilling machine and a milling machine. Is that correct? Will I be able to accomplish any project that I might encounter in the future using only these three machines (and my imagination, of course), or must I've something else as well?

3. While we're at it, what's the difference between a milling machine and a drilling machine? They look kind of the same to me... :\

4. Referring to question number 1, what are the biggest brands in the market? I've got about USD $7000 to invest in equipment, so I want to make sure I'm getting the best of the best for that budget.

5. Judging by videos on Youtube and by threads in this forum, there are lots of people who transform their manual lathes/milling/drilling machines into CNC ones. Why is that? I mean, if CNC is the standard nowadays, why manufacturers don't make these machines CNC from the beginning? (And, while we're at it -- what do you think I should get? CNC ones or manual ones?)

6. Can you guys please recommend any series of books, or maybe a web-site from which I'll be able to learn everything there's to learn about machining and setting up a machine shop?

Ahm... That's it, I believe...

I really appreciate you guys for even taking the time to read my message so far, hehe... Let alone reply to it!

I'll welcome any comment regarding the matter.

Yours greatly and looking forward to hearing your thoughts and opinions,

Arye Segal.

Similar Threads:

• Howdy from a new guy.

[jalessi]

Arye,

Welcome to the Zone.

See the attached link for very good machine shop instructional video's.

http://techtv.mit.edu/videos?q=machine+shop

Jeff...

[amyers]

This should be must do reading, really helped me a lot.
http://www.hossmachine.info/forum/ya...n-Newbies.aspx
am

[segal.arye]

WGH

Thank you guys for replying -- the links you gave me are terrific!

Any other comments are more than welcome.

Arye Segal.

[ImanCarrot]

Welcome to the Zone!

3. While we're at it, what's the difference between a milling machine and a drilling machine? They look kind of the same to me... :\

Yep, they do look similar, but a drill press is designed for vertical loads, but a mill is designed for horizontal loads. You can make a lot more things with a mill.

If you're going to CNC machine (as opposed to manual machining) then you'll also probably need a PC with a CAD program and a CAM program to get the instructions to your machine.

[Edit]You can get free programs that do this[/Edit]

[pfred2]

A lathe can mill, drill, and turn work. So I think it is the most versatile machine you mentioned.

There are the dedicated multipurpose machines, which some may say do everything poorly. But at least they do everything! This is one example of such a device:
http://www.shoptask.com/

In the circumstances you describe I can imagine worse setups than one of these would provide.

[segal.arye]

WGH

I appreciate your opinions, pfred2 and ImanCarrot, and have taken everything you said into consideration.

It's a (weird) thing about me that when I buy new equipment, I must go for the best brand out there. So, I just wonder, sales-wise, which companies own the benchtop lathes & mills markets? I just got into this machining area a few days ago, and already heard a ton of names like Grizzly, HF, EMCO, Sieg, Taig, Sherline, Wabeco, etc. I wouldn't like to invest a thousand bucks or so in a machine that I'll start having trouble with a few days after I first used it.

BTW, I've got a question regarding machine precision. I've never got to see in lathes nor in milling machines specifications that the manufacturer mentioned how precise the machine is (i.e, that it'll be able to cut metals to a precision of 0.001 [mm] of the intended value). Why is that? Or am I misreading the specifications?

Boy you guys don't know how eager I'm to just go online and already purchase for myself one of these milling machines and lathes. I'm DIEING to start cutting metal already!!! I just want to a peaceful mind, though, knowing that I got the best bang for the buck.

Also, when the time will come, is every milling machine CNC-convertible? And how would one go about doing so? I mean, does the manufacturer supply us with ready-for-assembly kits, designed for this purpose? Or must we buy all the parts (i.e, stepper motors, their drivers, etc.) and figure out by ourselves how to make the machine CNC-ready?

Boy, it's seems as if I'm eating more than I can chew here, hehe... Haven't ever got to drill a whole through metal, and already I'm thinking about CNC...

I'll appreciate any comments you guys may have regarding the matter!

Yours greatly and looking forward to hearing from you guys soon,

Arye Segal.

[pfred2]

I'll say this I have a couple of machines and I don't know where I'd be without my bandsaw. Job one is to break down stock so you can work with it. Actually I do know where I'd be, I'd still be sawing through a chunk of metal with a hacksaw!

As far as your precision concerns go that all depends on the operator. If I have to choose between lucky and good I'll go with lucky every time. I can make parts on my cheap chinese mill accurate to .001, but it takes me a while to do it.

Serious commercial operations rarely look for closer than .003 of an inch out of toothed cutting operations. Anything closer that is what grinders are for. Although your typical small time Internet armchair machinist insists upon .0001 accuracy out of their benchtop machinery and I'm not about to argue with them just because they don't have the equipment to do it right.

Really, its an apples and oranges comparison, because what most people are doing at home is more akin to grinding than actual milling. So home tinkerers aren't worried about tool deflection so much as production jobs where heavy cuts are taken and work is flying by the cutter.

If you're so gung-ho to machine I don't see why you don't just get a job in a little tool and die shop. You'll learn a lot more there than anywhere else about just what it takes to shape stock.

I believe the basics of machining are best picked up with hands on experience. I mean if I'd never seen jobs setup right in front of me it might have never dawned on me just how it is done.

As far as how you get a CNC machine it depends on what you are willing to do. Some buy turn key systems, others build theirs from scratch, and everything in between too. There are merits to all approaches. It all depends on individual need, and circumstances.

[segal.arye]

WGH

Very thorough answer, pfred2. I REALLY appreciate it! There's one thing I don't understand, though... You said that bench-top machinery don't have the ability to reach such high precision levels (i.e, 0.0001 of an inch). Why is that? I mean, bench-top machines are simply a down-sized version of the same big machines. Is the mass of the machine itself a precision factor? Leave aside the operator of the machine and how good he is at operating it. I simply want to know which parameters affect the final precision level that will be achieved.

Once again, thanks a ton for all the assistance!

Arye Segal.

[degreaser]

Size matters.

As you cut, the force of cutting deflects the mass holding the cutter. That can lead to inaccuracies. The harder you cut, the more the mass deflects. Large masses usually are more rigid and deflect less. That's why the more precise and powerful machines weigh thousands and thousands of pounds. A Sherline is a great little mill and is very well designed but don't expect to take heavy cuts in steel on large parts.

There are tons of other sources of errors. For example on my dovetail column mill/drill (RF45), the table can change position by .002" between having the gibs tight vs having them loose. A lot of that is "dialing in" the machine but those sorts of errors are not unusual.

Has the machine been "trammed"? That means aligning the column and head w/r to the table. If not then the various planes of the cuts you are making may not be parallel.

The screws that you use to move the table have backlash. .015" isn't uncommon. You must be aware of that when making movements of the table or lathe carriage.

Then there's "run-out" of the spindle which can be substantial. Run-out is how far off the center of rotation is from the center of the cutter on a mill or the center of the workpiece on a lathe. On benchtop lathes, the inexpensive 3-jaw chucks can have incredibly large runouts of the order of .005" or more. There are ways to deal with this but you need to be aware of the limitations of the machines and work within those limitations.

Does that mean you can't make really neat parts with relatively inexpensive machine tools? Absolutely not. You can get .001" accuracies but it will take practice and patience.

As far as the bandsaw, I also use an abrasive chopsaw for steel and a non-ferrous blade on a miter saw for aluminum.

When you decide what to buy, plan on spending at least as much on "tooling" for the machine - vises, clamps, cutters, measuring tools etc.

[pfred2]

Anythings possible but cut surfaces aren't even that smooth compared to ground surfaces anyways. There are tooling marks, I mean scratches can be deeper than .0001. If you want that kind of precision then surface finish comes into play.

My machine is graduated in .001 and that is being optimistic. But one must consider scales on machines to have some sort of a guide as to their overall accuracy. Really you can't leave out the operator either, without me my machine just collects dust! As I've grown more familiar with my machine I can get more out of it today then I used to be able to.

And yes, mass translates into stability, and chatter reduction. A more massive machine can be abused a lot more and still give excellent results. My machine has a very narrow window I must pass through in order to achieve anything desirable with it at all. I've run mills that'd eat my toy up for lunch.

Get a very light machine and you'll learn all about chatter real fast. End mills can get expensive to replace! But lighter machines can give excellent results in lighter materials as well. Lots of people just work brass and aluminum.

[mattbesquare]

No Joke, he is serious. Take the price of your machine and double it for the basic tooling. I have what I need but nothing exotic, and it was very expensive. I will dig up my post from january when I asked how to spend 1400.00 on a machine and tooling...I was so cute and optimistic then....

When you decide what to buy, plan on spending at least as much on "tooling" for the machine - vises, clamps, cutters, measuring tools etc.

[degreaser]

Anythings possible but cut surfaces aren't even that smooth compared to ground surfaces anyways.

No argument from me! I wish I had room/money for a surface grinder...

[ImanCarrot]

Also, do remember that your machine is made of metal, the X, Y and Z slide on a mill are considerable lumps of metal which changes size with temperature

For example: a 100mm (4") iron rod will change in length by 0.012mm (0.00047) at a temperature change of 10 degrees C (source- Mitutoyo Engineer's Reference Book, page 11).

Your coolant will be changing temperature, your machine bearing oil will be changing temperature, your shop will be too and the micrometer that you're using to measure will be changing. When you hold whatever you've made you hands will be heating it. If you clean it with acetone or meths it'll cool it

Do you really need to work to 0.001mm? that's a micron, one thousandth of a millimitre, about a tenth of the size of a human red blood cell. I can work to less than a micron, but I got a special machine and total environment control

[segal.arye]

Thanks everyone for replying. You've just made me realize how little I know, and how every little detail counts when trying to machine to such precision levels. I should really lower my expectations from the machines I'm planning on buying, and DEFINITELY buy a few books for beginners about the subject!

Ahm... This is it, guys. For now, at least...

Once again, thank you all for taking the time to read my Qs and thoughts and replying. You taught me quite a few things that might have cost me a few thousand bucks to learn by myself. You're a great forum, indeed!

Rest assured, though, that I'll continue to bug you with some more questions as I go along and finally decide on which equipment to buy, etc.

Yours greatly,

Arye Segal.

[segal.arye]

WGH

Hello again, guys.

I just wanted to know, what do you guys think about the Smithy LX-329 mill? My fathers' friend has it in his garage-based small machine shop, and I got to see it yesterday in action. It seems very solid and precise (from my very un-experienced point of view). My fathers' friend said that he's been using it for about a year now and since day one he had never had any problems whatsoever with it, and overall he's very pleased with it and with the quality of the machine itself and of the results it's producing.

So... What do you guys think? How's this mill in your opinion? It's quite expensive when compared to other mills in its level (it costs USD $2,599), but I'm willing to pay the price if it's worth it

Please bare in mind that, as mentioned earlier, I'm a total beginner, and this will be my first mill, so I'd also like to know if it's recommended for a beginner like me.

Thanks a ton in advance guys!

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts,

Arye Segal.

[degreaser]

I don't have any direct experience with the LX-329 but it looks to be a clone of the RF45. You can see the original RF45 at the bottom of this page:

http://www.americanmachinetools.com/...op_milling.htm

I have a three-phase version of the RF45 and it's very capable. If you are investigating RF45 clones, don't forget IHC:

http://www.ihcnc.com/pages/bed-mill.php

The IHC mills are easily converted to cnc and have a significantly larger work envelope than the RF45 and most other clones. The stock motor is 2HP vs 1.5HP for the Smithy. Unfortunately, their prices seem to have gone up recently. Still, if I were in the market the IHC would be on my short list.

[segal.arye]

Don, thanks a lot for the informative reply. Just one question, though. Who are these companies? :\ I mean, for the last few days I've been doing a lot of reading and research about lathe & milling machines manufacturers, and have never got to see neither of these names come up. I wouldn't like to invest in a tool from some unknown company.

Even so, I'm still new to this entire field, so if they are big names that I somehow missed, these "IH CNC & Machinery" and "Rong Fu" fellas, then I'll be more than happy to further investigate and ask about their products. Just let me know what you guys think about them companies.

Thanks a lot in advance,

Arye Segal.

[degreaser]

Rong Fu is Taiwanese. Here's their corporate site:

http://www.rongfu.com/en/en-company.html

They are reputable. Lots of people have their machines and their distribution network provides rock solid support. With the RF45, they set the standard for the square column benchtop mill. The base RF45 retails for around $3500-$4000 MSRP.

http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT...MT4NO=82581007

IHC has been around for at least 10 years I think. They've changed ownership once (twice?) but still continue to produce excellent machines. They contract with chinese firms to produce custom high quality RF45 clones. They have their own support forum here:

http://cnczone.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=284

You'll find other less expensive RF45 clones at Enco (MSC subsidiary) and Grizzly.

http://www.use-enco.com
http://grizzly.com


Keep looking

[segal.arye]

WGH

How are you, fellas?

I just saw this company, Optimum Machines, which has the OPTI BF 30 VARIO, which's a milling/drilling machine that seems very rigid. And the best part is that this company also sells a ready-to-install CNC conversion kit for this macine! So that means that when I'll be ready to go ahead and make it CNC ready, I'll have this kit to make the job a whole lot easier. Also, let us not forget, that it's VERY well priced within my budget frame.

So... In your opinion, how's this company? They're from Germany, so I guess it's good quality. Is the machine really high quality and gives precise results as they claim in their web-site? Is it any good for the price they're asking for it (around EUR 2,500)? I'd really like to hear any thoughts you guys may be having!

Yours greatly and looking forward to hearing your thoughts,

Arye Segal.