TaK's Sieg X3 CNC Upgrades - Page 3


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Thread: TaK's Sieg X3 CNC Upgrades

  1. #41
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    THAT is sweet! I bet your going to LOVE the fog buster! I've only used the kool mist, but FYI installing a ball valve near my keyboard on the air in makes mine 1000 more enjoyable to use. having to adjust the pressure as you turn it on every time is annoying. Flipping the ball valve opens it exactly at its last setting stop no fiddling every time. don't know if the buster will have the same issue, but I had to install a one way check valve from mcmaster to keep the coolant line from sucking air bubbles back into the line from the mixing head between usages. Air bubbles really mess up the flow.

    what are the part numbers and info on the pulleys? I think I'll be doing a similar mod only with a treadmill motor soon. I'm waiting until I get a lathe to surface the NEW quill and spindle I will buy to add the new bearings to.

    Air pressure is a constant battle over here too. I haven't posted anything about it yet, but last night I ran a .062" 3flute end mill at 25 ipm in aluminum slotting, pocketing and finishing at .02" deep :-D I was testing my new Air Turbine Spindle at 40,000 rpm. it has a 3/4" shank so its even Tormach Tool System friendly. It wants 6cfm at 90 psi which I don't have, but short runs (5 minutes) at 60psi tool my 23 minute program down to 5 minutes so its worth every penny to me. the finish is scary good with .0004 TIR IIRC. Cant wait to wire 240 to the shed/garage for a big compressor to be able to run this thing full out.



  2. #42
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    The exact pulleys you order are going to depend on your motor, target speed, etc. For reference, here's the part numbers for the pulleys and belt I ordered.

    Misumi: MISUMI, the catalog company of Machine Components eCatalog
    ATPA21L050-A-P35
    ATPA18L050-A-P14
    TUN187L050

    One pulley for the motor shaft and one for the quill. You could do what some others have done (yantra?) and skip the quill, going strait for the spindle, but then you loose the quill functionality. Also the interface is pretty ugly since you basically need to mount the pulley to the spline gear. My goal was to simply attach to the quill and replace that gear at the top.

    What model of air spindle do you have? I've been looking for a better solution for PCB milling.

    I got basically the largest air compressor I could find that would run at normal 120V. It's a Makita MAC5200
    Makita USA - Tool Details - MAC5200
    I've only used it a small amount so far, but I'm impressed with how heavy-duty it feels. It runs with about a 30% duty cycle when the FB is at 10 PSI, and about 20% when the FB is at 5 PSI. 5 PSI is already a reasonable air stream from the FB.

    Priddy-
    Are you doing CNC tapping? If so how?

    One thing that's been in the back of my mind is how I want to tap. I really prefer the idea of rigid tapping, but Mach has no support for it. What I'm thinking about is using Mach for normal milling and drilling, then having a separate .tap for my tapping operations and doing that with separate hardware.

    TK



  3. #43
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    rigid tapping would be really nice, but right now I do it manually. I edit the g code and just copy the hole locations from the G83, paste below them calling T22 which is my tap guide. Then I copy and paste:

    M01
    G1 F8 Z-.6
    M01
    G0 Z3

    after each hole position. my M6 is programmed at Z3 so I set T22 at .1 above the tap and handle -3". in use this its really fast. finish drilling, load tap guide (TTS 1/2" SS holder), press cycle start (tap positions directly above the hole with .1" clearance to insert tap w/ handle), press CS again (tap guide loads tap with .5"), turn tap in, press CS (tap guide retracts and moves to next hole leaving room to back the tap out), load tap in next hole and press CS.
    It sounds like a lot of work but I can tap ten 1/4-20 threads in just a few minutes and they are all nice and strait. typically I'm standing there during drilling operations anyways vendor changing spot drill, then drill, then next tool is too short to do anything in between.


    My high speed spindle is a Air Turbine Spindles™ 602js. its insane. can't even hear it in my shop until it goes FLYING through metal. I'm still working up the courage to feed it metal at the rate it wants, but at 20-25ipm with a .0625" end mill it leaves a perfect finish and is scary fast. I actually have two of these and just posted the brand new one on ebay to pay to run 240v to the garage and get a big compressor. They were both purchased in 07 by a local company. the one I'm running was used in mold making for years and its still prefect. immeasurable run out and silent. the one I posted was purchased as a back up in case the first one was crashed and needed repair, but after 5 years the first one is still prefect. really says something for the design. Ceramic bearings sit inside below the motor chamber so they are blasted with constant high pressure circulating air to cool. no gears to grind, no vanes, just 40k rpm all the time... I tried stopping the spindle by holding the nut with a dowel in there... not a chance.



  4. #44
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    I spent the last week trying to get rid of the backlash on my machine. I got it down to .002" on the x and y. The latter is sometimes less. I'm using a double ball nuts. In order to get it below .001, I think the screw needs to be aligned perfectly.



  5. #45
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    I played with some blue last night. My photos were not uploading well so maybe I will post them later.

    I was looking at the X gib specifically. First I checked it's actual flatness by blueing it against a granite plate. As expected, it isn't very flat. Only about the last 1/4" on either side (the short edges) had any blue.

    Next, I put blue on the gib and tightened the screws so I could just move the table by hand. I slid it back and forth a few times to see where it touched. I think I actually did this step wrong. I should have blued the table dovetail and looked at where it got on the gib. I'll do it correctly tonight. Either way, it looks like there is only a thin strip where it touches as Priddy also saw.

    I noticed that the table gets quite tight at the ends of its travel.

    Ok, a few questions:

    How far do you push the table when transferring blue? The whole length or just back and forth over a small area?

    Can you ever make the travel smooth if you don't scrape the dovetails flat first? I ask because the ends of the travel are tight. So if the dovetails aren't flat, you can't make the gib fit for the whole length of travel. The best you could hope to do would be to make a good fit for some particular spot. This would obviously defeat the purpose.

    I didn't actually start any scraping yet. I need to shape my tool into more of rounded point as Mueller suggests in his videos.

    TK



  6. #46
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    I did a lot of work on the X gib. This scraping is a very long process. I'm sure it would get easier as you refine your technique and your tool, but for now it's a pain.

    This is how the X gib started against a granite plate.



    And this is how I left it last night. It's about 2/3 done.



    It's definitely not perfect yet. The whole middle section doesn't touch and on the left and right side where it does touch, it doesn't have enough gaps.

    I decided it was good enough to give it a test back in the machine with the dial indicator. The backlash is now just over 0.001". A slight improvement. It seems to vary a large amount with how tight you make the screws. Too loose and you get a lot of backlash. Too tight and you get 0.002"-0.003". Just right and its just a hair over 0.001".

    I don't know if I'll continue with the scraping or not. Maybe every once in a while I'll do some more. I want to get back to installing my new motor. This tangent has been more time consuming then I intended.

    The last thing I want to try before going back to the motor install is making sure the ballscrew is perfectly strait. To do this, I need to take the Y saddle off and unbolt the X ballscrew. Then carefully reinstall it while the fixed side of the ballscrew is seated strait. This should be reasonably quick.

    Here's a few more pics of my scraping process for anyone interested.








    TK



  7. #47
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    I noticed something interesting regarding the backlash on the X.

    I took the table and the saddle and assembled on the benchtop:



    I tightened the gibs screws very tight so the table won't slide on the saddle, then I flipped it over:



    If everything was perfect, there should be no movement, but I am able to twist the coupling by hand and observe some small rotation of the screw. I used a dial indicator placed on the table to check various points for movement when I twisted the coupling by hand.

    The saddle doesn't move at all. The ballnut seems to move a tiny bit (maybe 0.00025"). But the fixed side end plate seems to move about 0.001"! Here is a pic of the setup:



    If this end plate moves about 0.001" with just me twisting the coupling by hand, it could be the biggest contributor to my total backlash. It's possible the two screws that hold that end plate are not making much contact because it's a slotted hole. I need to find a way to fix that end plate more tightly to the table and see what impact it makes on the overall backlash.

    TK



  8. #48
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    Very interesting. I think I might cut some pieces tonight/tomorrow to fill the slots with a hole drilled where the cap screw is. Then I can use a longer cap screw and washer and distribute more pressure over a larger contact area.

    Should only take a few minutes. if I change them one at a time and take backlash readings before and after then it should definitively show if it decreased any error.



  9. #49
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    do you recall what size those are? I'm thinking 5mm, but they could be 6mm.

    I'm going to order some thick fender washers from McMaster to better distribute the pressure and use hex bolts instead of cap screws



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    ..watching patiently to see what you guys find out... :-)

    Donald


  11. #51
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    My first thought was that the fixed plate may be rocking on the edge of the table. I tried throwing some big washers in there to allow more force from the table closer to where the ballscrew attaches. I took this pic before I had it fully adjusted:



    It didn't make any difference so that's why I'm thinking the screws aren't holding tight enough.

    Grizzly calls the screws an M6-1x16 (PN 117). I expect the kit ones are similar.

    TK



  12. #52
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    It occurs to me that I should be able check this in another way - by having the machine assembled fully and placing a dial indicator base on the table and the needle on this fixed plate somewhere near the bottom. Then by moving around 0.01" one way and the other (like checking backlash), I can see if the plate is shifting at all.

    Priddy,
    You might try this test before cutting anything to see if you agree with me that the fixed plate is tilting.

    TK



  13. #53
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    good idear. I'll try that too. already ordered some M6x50 hex heads to cut to size and some JUMBO 1/4 ID, 1.5" OD, .25" thick washers. That oughta give er some bite.

    been wanting some jumbo washers for fixtures anyways so this was just a excuse.

    According to "the understanding one" I'm going to... er, taking her to a Martina McBride concert tomorrow night (valentines and all) so I won't likely get to try it till the weekend depending on what the work is that's getting dropped off tonight.

    Been successfully executing a strict "no fix'n, improven, or mod'n when there are paid jobs waiting" policy... wish I had less fix'n time



  14. #54
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    Perhaps you could bolt a 123 block to the top of the table then clamp the top of the mount plate from the side of the 123 block. I am not familiar with the CNCfusion parts but are both ends like this? I did Cadmonkeys conversion and he used 4 bolts to hold the bearing block and the other side it is just floating in the bearing.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails TaK's Sieg X3 CNC Upgrades-2012-02-13_162554-jpg   TaK's Sieg X3 CNC Upgrades-2012-02-13_163224-jpg   TaK's Sieg X3 CNC Upgrades-x3_cnc_conversion-pdf  


  15. #55
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    Yes, it looks very much like that second drawing.



    The original plate on that side (with the hand wheel) had two bolts and two pins. The CNCFusion kit doesn't use the pins, just the screws.

    I will try that test I described tonight and take some pics.

    TK



  16. #56
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    What about the motor side? Is it a single bearing and floats?



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    The motor side has no bearing. Just the motor mounting and a hole for the coupling to pass through.



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    The ball screws can generate a lot of force if you turn it hard enough. Perhaps you don't actually have an issue. 1 mil is quite small compared to the amount of torsional flex that the column would have when the same force is applied during milling.



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    I made the measurement on the fixed plate like I described previously. It seems to move around 0.001" which isn't as bad as I was expecting.

    I have two values for my backlash on the X axis. When the gibs screws are tight, it's about 0.0035" and when they are just tight enough that the table doesn't rotate when I push on it, the backlash is about 0.0015". This issue with the fixed plate may be some of that overall backlash.

    There are two more things I'd like to measure, but I haven't figured out how yet.

    One is the ballnut and saddle. I need some standoff to attach to the nut block because it's too deep under the table to get the indicator in there. Possibly, I could glue a rod to the nut block and then remove it after.

    The other thing I'd like to measure is the ballscrew itself to see if it or the angular contact bearings are moving. The end of the ballscrew is a tempting location, but it isn't flat, so as the screw turns the indicator moves...

    TK



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    Hi all, i've been keeping an eye on this thread for a while now as i am undertaking a very similer build e.g. X3, cncfusion deluxe, 1.6kw ac servo spindle drive.

    Any more updates on measuring the x axis ballscrew backlash?
    It occurs to me that you could take a tdi reading off the end of the screw if you glued a small precision steel ball into the recess created from the centre drill and then measure off if that (i.e. A ball removed from an old bearing).

    Once i'm in a position too i will take and post some backlash readings.

    Matt.



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