Looking for a CNC router to cut fiberglass+


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    Default Looking for a CNC router to cut fiberglass+

    Hello. I was wondering if anyone might be able to help me find a CNC that will fit my needs.
    My employer is wanting to find a 4'x8' (1325) CNC router to cut 1/2 to 3/4 inch FRP sheets. Since I'm the resident 3D printing "expert" He thinks that I'm the perfect man to find him one. We haven't agreed on a buget yet, but he's pushing me to find a machine so here I am. Though I'm not entirely sure if he's looking to spend $30.000 or $10.000. I have a feeling it may be the later. It'd be nice to get input of people more knolegable on the matter to help decide, not only what we should expect to spend, but which machine is best suited to our needs.
    The fiberglass we will be cutting is mostly chopped or hand layup, with Vinyl-Ester resin. 3/8 and 1/2 inch will be our most common thicknesses, but I'd like to say 3/4 max just in case the guys chopping get a little overzealous. We'd only be cutting a couple of parts a day so it won't see super heavy use. Our main goal is to have a machine to do some of the more tedious work. This will, in turn, free up some workers to focus more on assembly.
    Please excuse my lack of knowledge on the subject. I just thought it'd be good to ask the community before we call a big company like HAAS to let their salesmen hustle us.

    Thank you all. Any help is greatly appreciated.

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    Default Re: Looking for a CNC router to cut fiberglass+

    FB is not cut with a router. Unless you fancy scratching your skin hourly and dying in <24 months of recurrent and chronic lung infections, then the router & bits is the way to go!
    Your boss is looking for a Waterjet Machine instead. Any within your required cutting envelop and budget will do.
    Hope this helps a bit. Sorry can't recommend you an exact make/model for the job.



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    Default Re: Looking for a CNC router to cut fiberglass+

    FB is not cut with a router.
    Well... it actually is, but I am pretty sure they have some sophisticated dust collection and environmental mitigation hardware on the machines that do it. Specifically, I'm thinking of PCB drill/router machines; which primarily work in FR4 fiberglass PCB material.

    More on-topic to the actual question, though... I have seen on TV people who build boats (manufacturers, not just guys in their garage) use trim routers on fiberglass panels to, well, trim. Usually they are wearing a respirator; sometimes a full hazmat bunny-suit (and when they aren't, I just sigh and shake my head). Consequentially, I would tend to expect a CNC router to be able to do the same general thing... but you're going to have to do something about the hazmat situation that doing so will generate. Not only will it mess up your skin and lungs, the fiberglass dust is abrasive and will eat the linear slides and bearings of the router. I would also tend to expect your tool life (i.e, the router bit or endmill) to be comparatively poor, because of the abrasive qualities of the fiberglass. Some sort of coolant will be required; not only for the cutting tool itself, but to keep the resin in the fiberglass from melting (flood coolant would also help with the dust situation).

    If possible, waterjet would be better. I haven't checked recently, but waterjet machines used to be upwards of $100K... and I suspect the good ones still are... so prepare for a bit of sticker shock there. Waterjets also consume abrasive media, and have a variety of consumable components in them for "focusing" the jet. These can get expensive... but, on the other hand, when you add up all the expense with dust mitigation, and going thru cutting tools, the router may end up being comparable in running cost (there's too many variables here to make a generalized statement).

    Unfortunately, I'm afraid I can't recommend a specific machine; because all my equipment is either DIY or a retrofit of some sort.

    You mentioned 3D printing... is your experience primarily with off-the-shelf machines (like a Stratasys), or have you built your own RepRap based machine? If it's the latter, you may wish to consider a machine with a more "open" design - one with step & direction based motor drivers, a PC based control that uses standard software (Mach, UCCNC, or something like it), etc. For example, Haas has their own control system; and if there's any issue with it, you more-or-less have to go back to Haas for service. If you have the skills, an open machine can be fixed or upgraded yourself, with parts from a variety of sources.

    In any case... good luck!



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    Default Re: Looking for a CNC router to cut fiberglass+

    Dunno, routers for glass fibers all sounds like the kinda silly stuff they used to do in 1960 to me. Was suggesting the alternative as I've seen a general upgrade in sheet processing over the last few years e.g. guy down the street cutting carbon fiber sheets for us (occasionally) is 100% waterjet & fiber lasers. Never seen a router there, to my knowledge anyway.

    Dunnodon'tcare. I've used a chainsaw the only one time in my life I had to cut this nasty FB stuff, took 3.47seconds...



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    Default Re: Looking for a CNC router to cut fiberglass+

    Hi Point - Any commercial router will cut the FG sheet as you like. You will need diamond burrs or tools that are used for PCB's. FG is very rough on HSS or carbide. The edge doesn't hang in there for very long. You will need excellent dust extraction and a water mister. I doubt you will cut 1/2" in one pass. I've only had experience routing thin glass and carbon. Most of the major router tooling suppliers have specific tools for composites so speak to your local tool supplier to figure out whats needed. People mention water cutting and that's great but its 10x the cost of a router. If its one or two parts a day you maybe better off finding a local contract router with an expensive fast machine that can cut it for you? or a water cutter.... If the shapes are consistent why not make a flat mould cavity? Infusion will make a very nice flat part and then you are cutting up cloth and not producing waste (and dust) if the parts vary in shape then yes you need to make flat plate and cut it up maybe. Formply with packing tape on the edge works quite well for a simple mould and it can be infused or hand laid... Cheers Peter



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    Default Re: Looking for a CNC router to cut fiberglass+

    If you want a reasonably priced and quality machine you might consider China.

    https://www.igoldencnc.com/

    My supplier :

    Lucas miao
    Telephone:0086-18560209651
    E-mail:sale026@igoldencnc.com
    (Wechat,Whatsapp,Skype:008618560209651)



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    Default Re: Looking for a CNC router to cut fiberglass+

    Dunno, routers for glass fibers all sounds like the kinda silly stuff they used to do in 1960 to me.
    Ahh... the '60s, What is it they say... if you can remember it, you weren't there?

    No matter what you do... this one's going to have definite pain points...

    If the shapes are consistent why not make a flat mould cavity?
    Yeah.. if possible, I would at least think about how the process could be re-engineered such that the fiberglass didn't have to be cut...



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    Default Re: Looking for a CNC router to cut fiberglass+

    I agree with peteeng,almost any machine will do the job.If its only going to be used for trimming GRP it would be best to build a booth to contain the machine and the dust and run an additional extractor to clean the air as well as the cup brush around the tool.The better the extraction,the longer it will take for abrasion form the dust to affect the machine.I'm sitting about five miles from where a 5 axis machine regularly trims carbon components and the occasional glass part.



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    Default Re: Looking for a CNC router to cut fiberglass+

    Hi point -If your going down the path of CNC think about a tangential cutter. From my experience in production composite parts cutting cloth is the slowest and most inaccurate task. If you CNC your cloth you are streets ahead. Peter



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    Default Re: Looking for a CNC router to cut fiberglass+

    There's a lot to unpack here. I didn't expect so many replies overnight.

    Lets get started.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mecanix View Post
    FB is not cut with a router. Unless you fancy scratching your skin hourly and dying in <24 months of recurrent and chronic lung infections, then the router & bits is the way to go!
    Your boss is looking for a Waterjet Machine instead. Any within your required cutting envelop and budget will do.
    Hope this helps a bit. Sorry can't recommend you an exact make/model for the job.
    I work with fiberglass on a dailey basis. I know all too well about the dust this stuff generates. With a decent dust collection system a router would actually produce much less dust than our current methods, so I dont see a problem there.


    Quote Originally Posted by __Britt View Post
    Well... it actually is, but I am pretty sure they have some sophisticated dust collection and environmental mitigation hardware on the machines that do it. Specifically, I'm thinking of PCB drill/router machines; which primarily work in FR4 fiberglass PCB material.

    More on-topic to the actual question, though... I have seen on TV people who build boats (manufacturers, not just guys in their garage) use trim routers on fiberglass panels to, well, trim. Usually they are wearing a respirator; sometimes a full hazmat bunny-suit (and when they aren't, I just sigh and shake my head). Consequentially, I would tend to expect a CNC router to be able to do the same general thing... but you're going to have to do something about the hazmat situation that doing so will generate. Not only will it mess up your skin and lungs, the fiberglass dust is abrasive and will eat the linear slides and bearings of the router. I would also tend to expect your tool life (i.e, the router bit or endmill) to be comparatively poor, because of the abrasive qualities of the fiberglass. Some sort of coolant will be required; not only for the cutting tool itself, but to keep the resin in the fiberglass from melting (flood coolant would also help with the dust situation).

    If possible, waterjet would be better. I haven't checked recently, but waterjet machines used to be upwards of $100K... and I suspect the good ones still are... so prepare for a bit of sticker shock there. Waterjets also consume abrasive media, and have a variety of consumable components in them for "focusing" the jet. These can get expensive... but, on the other hand, when you add up all the expense with dust mitigation, and going thru cutting tools, the router may end up being comparable in running cost (there's too many variables here to make a generalized statement).

    Unfortunately, I'm afraid I can't recommend a specific machine; because all my equipment is either DIY or a retrofit of some sort.

    You mentioned 3D printing... is your experience primarily with off-the-shelf machines (like a Stratasys), or have you built your own RepRap based machine? If it's the latter, you may wish to consider a machine with a more "open" design - one with step & direction based motor drivers, a PC based control that uses standard software (Mach, UCCNC, or something like it), etc. For example, Haas has their own control system; and if there's any issue with it, you more-or-less have to go back to Haas for service. If you have the skills, an open machine can be fixed or upgraded yourself, with parts from a variety of sources.

    In any case... good luck!
    Thank you Britt.
    Yes we do use routers and grinders here to cut and shape the fiberglass. For this we have Tyvek suits and respirators as there are large amounts of dust.
    The abrasive qualitys of fiberglass are a deffinate issue. I would assume that rails and bearings would need to be considered as consumables. Being a thermoset plastic, we don't come across any issues with the resin melting durring cutting, so i'd want to say that a dry cutting sistym would be fine. I have heard that you need a low spindle speed and high feedrate to keep the frp from burning though. this would nessitate multiple passes to cut thicker material.
    Though it would be ideal a waterjet would probably be well outside our price range.
    As far as 3D printing is concerned. most my machines are RepRap so I do have experiance building them. I've even designed and built some from scratch. I have tinkered a little with GRBL, but never got far enough to make a functional CNC.
    Though I would love to build my own CNC. I think that somthing plug and play is better suited to the workplace.



    Quote Originally Posted by peteeng View Post
    Hi Point - Any commercial router will cut the FG sheet as you like. You will need diamond burrs or tools that are used for PCB's. FG is very rough on HSS or carbide. The edge doesn't hang in there for very long. You will need excellent dust extraction and a water mister. I doubt you will cut 1/2" in one pass. I've only had experience routing thin glass and carbon. Most of the major router tooling suppliers have specific tools for composites so speak to your local tool supplier to figure out whats needed. People mention water cutting and that's great but its 10x the cost of a router. If its one or two parts a day you maybe better off finding a local contract router with an expensive fast machine that can cut it for you? or a water cutter.... If the shapes are consistent why not make a flat mould cavity? Infusion will make a very nice flat part and then you are cutting up cloth and not producing waste (and dust) if the parts vary in shape then yes you need to make flat plate and cut it up maybe. Formply with packing tape on the edge works quite well for a simple mould and it can be infused or hand laid... Cheers Peter
    I have looked into bits for fiberglass. Diamond does seem like the way to go, but also brings along aditional expences. I think we'd probably end up comparring diamond to carbide to find out whats going to be the most cost effective.
    As far as molds are concerned, we do have molds for our most common parts, but keeping them for our more varried parts would be inpractical as most of what we make is made to order.


    Quote Originally Posted by routalot View Post
    I agree with peteeng,almost any machine will do the job.If its only going to be used for trimming GRP it would be best to build a booth to contain the machine and the dust and run an additional extractor to clean the air as well as the cup brush around the tool.The better the extraction,the longer it will take for abrasion form the dust to affect the machine.I'm sitting about five miles from where a 5 axis machine regularly trims carbon components and the occasional glass part.
    I'm all for a good extraction system. I wish it were possible to have extraction systems for all our other tools too. The amounts of dust we deal with on a dailey basis is unreal. If we did build a booth, I think it'd be more to keep the dust from other tool out than the dust from the CNC in. I'v almost thought about bagging the rails or adding bellows to mitigate the dust incursion and slow the wear. Don't know how practical that would be though.

    Quote Originally Posted by peteeng View Post
    Hi point -If your going down the path of CNC think about a tangential cutter. From my experience in production composite parts cutting cloth is the slowest and most inaccurate task. If you CNC your cloth you are streets ahead. Peter
    I have actually thought about using a laser to cut mat and roving. I even went so far as to see if I could cut the roving on my laser at home. Though I was a little underpowered with my 40watt CO2 laser, I feel it wouldn't take too much more to get the job done. Maybe a 60watt. I do have a plotter/cutter at home. I'd assume that thatd be similar to the tangental cutter you mention. Uses a trailing blade to cut the (in the case of my machine vinyl sticker material.) fabic. This might be an option for the future, but for now we're looking for a CNC to cut sheets of FRP.


    Thank you all for the responses. I will continue to reserch until lI find out whats best.

    Cheers. Point.



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    Default Re: Looking for a CNC router to cut fiberglass+

    Quote Originally Posted by pointfiftytracer View Post
    There's a lot to unpack here. I didn't expect so many replies overnight.
    I work with fiberglass on a dailey basis. I know all too well about the dust this stuff generates. With a decent dust collection system a router would actually produce much less dust than our current methods, so I dont see a problem there.
    Reassuring to know that! I bet those dust collector systems are pretty evolved in your industry, perhaps the detail I've missed from the start. All others' comments makes it good learning.
    Thanks, and g'luck with your sourcing project.



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    Default Re: Looking for a CNC router to cut fiberglass+

    I'v almost thought about bagging the rails or adding bellows to mitigate the dust incursion and slow the wear. Don't know how practical that would be though.
    Some machines have bellows or covers standard; on some others it's an option, or possibly a DIY project. It might also be possible to fit a machine's bellows/covers with a HVLP clean-air pressurization system, so that dust is blown away from the sensitive parts of the machine.

    so i'd want to say that a dry cutting sistym would be fine.
    The right coolant - even applied as a spray (i.e, with a "fog-buster" style setup) - can also help with cutting tool life... although if the machine is making "dust" more than "chips" anything less than flood coolant might just end up making "mud" out of the cuttings.

    I think that somthing plug and play is better suited to the workplace.
    Yes - what I had in mind was not that you'd necessarily DIY the whole machine (although I suppose you could) but rather that you might wish to pick an "off the shelf" machine that uses standard components that are available from a variety of sources (an open PC based control; NEMA frame motors; motor drivers that have step-and-direction control signals; linear rails that you can get replacements for from companies such as HiWin, etc). This machine would be fully built by the company that sold it to you; but they would have used common parts to do so - not custom made ones that lock you into that vendor.





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    Default Re: Looking for a CNC router to cut fiberglass+

    although if the machine is making "dust" more than "chips"
    I don't think you can get chips from fiberglass panels, due to the fibers. And the tooling designed for fiberglass are more like burrs that endmills, so there's no cutting edge to cut chips.

    Gerry

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