WOW ! Parts are getting a Wee bit hard to find now

[joeavaerage]

Hi,

Intel has manufacturing in China as does every other major manufacture

According to:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...acturing_sites

there are NO Intel wafer manufacturing sites in China, the last closed in 2021. All the 3nm and 5nm nodes are in the US exclusively, one 7nm and one 14nm node in Ireland,
22nm, 10nm, and 7nm in Israel. There are a number of other international manufacturing plants involved in dicing and packaging, or the manufacture of 22nm or bigger,
but Intel has kept all the high value stuff in the US.

The US has nothing to do with EUV machine manufacture, a Dutch company called ASML is the only manufacture of the EUV machines.

The US has patents which are employed in ASML's machines and therefore have banned the sale of EUV machines to China.

https://www.wired.com/story/europe-asml-chip-shortage/

Craig

[joeavaerage]

Hi,

Intel has manufacturing in China as does every other major manufacture

According to:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...acturing_sites

there are NO Intel wafer manufacturing sites in China, the last closed in 2021. All the 3nm and 5nm nodes are in the US exclusively, one 7nm and one 14nm node in Ireland,
22nm, 10nm, and 7nm in Israel. There are a number of other international manufacturing plants involved in dicing and packaging, or the manufacture of 22nm or bigger,
but Intel has kept all the high value stuff in the US.

The US has nothing to do with EUV machine manufacture, a Dutch company called ASML is the only manufacture of the EUV machines.

The US has leaned on the Dutch government to prevent sales of EUV equipment to China, and the Dutch government has refused to issue export permission
to ASML for their latest EUV machines to China, siting potential military use.

https://www.reuters.com/technology/a...eo-2022-01-19/

https://www.wired.com/story/europe-asml-chip-shortage/

Craig

[mactec54]

Certainly more diversity is a good thing, but the "eggs" dollar wise are mainly in high density chips which are not made in China.

Actually Chinese chip capacity for low tech legacy chips is helping in the current situation. Most shortages are in 45 nm or larger geometry parts.
These commodity parts have a very low profit margin compared to the latest 7 nm or smaller cell phone chips for example

The Chinese already have moved forward way past the 45nm they are doing 20nm to 28nm right now and have started their own EUV program, the US can only manage 10nm Taiwan, and South Korea can both do 5nm / 7nm
https://www.verdict.co.uk/china-chip...re-technology/

[mactec54]

Hi,



According to:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...acturing_sites

there are NO Intel wafer manufacturing sites in China, the last closed in 2021. All the 3nm and 5nm nodes are in the US exclusively, one 7nm and one 14nm node in Ireland,
22nm, 10nm, and 7nm in Israel. There are a number of other international manufacturing plants involved in dicing and packaging, or the manufacture of 22nm or bigger,
but Intel has kept all the high value stuff in the US.




The US has patents which are employed in ASML's machines and therefore have banned the sale of EUV machines to China.

https://www.reuters.com/technology/a...eo-2022-01-19/

https://www.wired.com/story/europe-asml-chip-shortage/

Craig

Don't believe everything you read

US patents are not in ASMLs machines, some of the equipment used to build the ASML machine have US patents, this is no concern for China as they have the own EUV machines now, with their own groundbreaking light beam source that has ASML with their jaws wide open, that it only took them 6 months to have their first machine running, took ASML 30 years to get there first machine in service

[joeavaerage]

Hi,
I was of the opinion that it was patent infringement that the US used to prevent the EUV sales but they have leaned on the Dutch government about the potential for military use.
The Dutch government has complied and refused an export license to ASML for their EUV machines, but has not restricted their earlier generation machines. ASML sells about 2.3billion Euros
of stuff to China annually, but NO EUV stuff.

If Reuters is not good enough for you , try The Wall Street Journal.

Craig

[mactec54]

Hi,
I was of the opinion that it was patent infringement that the US used to prevent the EUV sales but they have leaned on the Dutch government about the potential for military use.
The Dutch government has complied and refused an export license to ASML for their EUV machines, but has not restricted their earlier generation machines. ASML sells about 2.3billion Euros
of stuff to China annually, but NO EUV stuff.

If Reuters is not good enough for you , try The Wall Street Journal.

Craig

They don't need any EUV machines they are developing their own and to date it is very successful, and a step up from ASMLs technology

Why would you use either, neither are associated in any way to Chip manufacturing, there are other more reliable technical sources of current information, on the different companies and what they are manufacturing, your sources are more of you unintelligent choices

[PCW_MESA]

ASML uses hundreds of US patents just for the EUV light source they acquired from Cymer (San Diego)

[PCW_MESA]

The Chinese already have moved forward way past the 45nm they are doing 20nm to 28nm right now and have started their own EUV program, the US can only manage 10nm Taiwan, and South Korea can both do 5nm / 7nm
https://www.verdict.co.uk/china-chip...re-technology/

Way to miss the point...

The current chip shortage is chiefly in 45 nm and older processes

[mactec54]

ASML uses hundreds of US patents just for the EUV light source they acquired from Cymer (San Diego)

Not according to ASML they say there is no US patents used in there machine only in the equipment that is used to make their machine

One of the many Patents filed by ASML

US7595931B2 - Grating for EUV lithographic system
https://patents.google.com/patent/US7595931
2004-01-09 Priority to US10/753,557 priority patent/US6867846B2/en 2005-01-19 Application filed by ASML Holding NV filed Critical ASML Holding NV 2005-01-19 Assigned to ASML HOLDING

Also, Russia has a EUV machine also
Russia develops EUV lithography machine, technology surpasses ASML,

Just so you and others know SMIC a Chinese company is already making 7nm so there is nothing stopping them at all, and they are not using the ASML machine to do it, so it is a lot of nothing that is going on.

[mactec54]

Way to miss the point...

The current chip shortage is chiefly in 45 nm and older processes

It proves a point that they are moving forward at a very fast rate, yes, they have been making the 45nm for years, 28nm right now is where there is a huge shortage also.

[PCW_MESA]

Not according to ASML they say there is no US patents used in there machine only in the equipment that is used to make their machine

One of the many Patents filed by ASML

US7595931B2 - Grating for EUV lithographic system
https://patents.google.com/patent/US7595931
2004-01-09 Priority to US10/753,557 priority patent/US6867846B2/en 2005-01-19 Application filed by ASML Holding NV filed Critical ASML Holding NV 2005-01-19 Assigned to ASML HOLDING

Also, Russia has a EUV machine also
Russia develops EUV lithography machine, technology surpasses ASML,

Just so you and others know SMIC a Chinese company is already making 7nm so there is nothing stopping them at all, and they are not using the ASML machine to do it, so it is a lot of nothing that is going on.

Many Cymer US patents are used for the EUV light source in every ASML EUV machine...

[PCW_MESA]

It proves a point that they are moving forward at a very fast rate, yes, they have been making the 45nm for years, 28nm right now is where there is a huge shortage also.

Nope 28 nm is heading for over supply.

The center of supply line issues is actually closer to 100 nm

[mactec54]

Many Cymer US patents are used for the EUV light source in every ASML EUV machine...

Now who is not doing their homework, do you known anything about patents, ASML owns Cymer everything belongs to ASML everyone files patents in the US and every other country that could pose a threat to there intellectual property

[PCW_MESA]

Now who is not doing their homework, do you known anything about patents, ASML owns Cymer everything belongs to ASML everyone files patents in the US and every other country that could pose a threat to there intellectual property

Exactly, these were Cymer US patents that ASML acquired so your "Not according to ASML they say there is no US patents used in there machine only in the equipment that is used to make their machine
"
Is pure nonsense, ASML EUV equipment depends on the Cymer invented and US patented technologies.

[mactec54]

Nope 28 nm is heading for over supply.

The center of supply line issues is actually closer to 100 nm

You are behind the 8 ball if you think that for a minute, all computer chipsets being made are now in the 28nm range

[mactec54]

Exactly, these were Cymer US patents that ASML acquired so your "Not according to ASML they say there is no US patents used in there machine only in the equipment that is used to make their machine
"
Is pure nonsense, ASML EUV equipment depends on the Cymer invented and US patented technologies.

The only nonsense is what you are saying, sure the patents are filed in the US and other countries as well, the patents belong to ASML not Cymer ASML is the name that is on the Patents not Cymer, anyway it is a moot point as their technology has been surpassed by Russia and China so the LUV system of ASML will lose its value and the ASML will not be happy

Do you know anything about Patents ??

[RCaffin]

their technology has been surpassed by Russia and China so the LUV system of ASML will lose its value and the ASML will not be happy
An interesting idea, but do you have any published references to support this claim?
An enquiring mind would really like to know.

I ask, because every published reference I can find says something along the lines of
Apr 29, 2022 EUV lithography is the most expensive step in making the advanced microchips that power data centers, cars and iPhones. The machines are made by only one company: Advanced Semiconductor Materials Lithography.

Cheers
Roger

[joeavaerage]

Hi,
Intel have struggled to achieve 10nm by quad patterning DUV (Deep UV),illuminated with 193nm wavelength ArF excimer laser.
The Chinese are struggling away with double patterning and have got to 20nm, just when they get to even match Intel's 10nm remains to be seen.

Intel have just bought for $340 million USD a Hi NA EUV lithography machine from ASML. That would tend to indicate that Intel believe
EUV is the way to go.

https://www.reuters.com/technology/i...ge-2022-01-19/

Of course matec doesn't believe Reuters, the world premier new service, nor apparently The Wall Street Journal. Funny he doesn't post any sources for
his inside knowledge, though he claims there are sources..

Why would you use either, neither are associated in any way to Chip manufacturing, there are other more reliable technical sources of current information, on the different companies and what they are manufacturing, your sources are more of you unintelligent choices

Anyone claiming to get 5nm or less with DUV (193nm wavelength) is dreaming whereas sub 1nm is possible with EUV (14nm wavelength). IBM are already experimenting
with what they call '20A' process, that's 20 Angstrom, and they are relying on EUV.

https://au.pcmag.com/processors/8703...ill-years-away

Craig

[mactec54]

their technology has been surpassed by Russia and China so the LUV system of ASML will lose its value and the ASML will not be happy
An interesting idea, but do you have any published references to support this claim?
An enquiring mind would really like to know.

I ask, because every published reference I can find says something along the lines of
Apr 29, 2022 EUV lithography is the most expensive step in making the advanced microchips that power data centers, cars and iPhones. The machines are made by only one company: Advanced Semiconductor Materials Lithography.

Cheers
Roger

There was only one company AMSL until the Chinese and Russia were denied access to their LUV machines, so they have started developing their own, and have surpassed the AMSL technology

[mactec54]

Hi,
Intel have struggled to achieve 10nm by quad patterning DUV (Deep UV),illuminated with 193nm wavelength ArF excimer laser.
The Chinese are struggling away with double patterning and have got to 20nm, just when they get to even match Intel's 10nm remains to be seen. Craig

This is all common knowledge, if you check my posts, I already posted this, and I did not have to use reuters

The Chinese are far from struggling as you say, they only started mid 2021 to develop LUV tec and in 6 months were making wafers, so are rapidly developing their own technology.

Of course matec doesn't believe Reuters, the world premier new service, nor apparently The Wall Street Journal. Funny he doesn't post any sources for
his inside knowledge, though he claims there are sources.. Craig

I don't have to prove anything I post the facts like it or not. and don't have to use Reuters or wall street like some amateurs have too

I usually go direct to the manufacture that way you get the correct information

Just for you, here is a link that you can sign up so you can inform yourself with ASMLs latest information
https://www.asml.com/en/news/news-subscription