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    Community Moderator Al_The_Man's Avatar
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    Default Re: How do you guys, price your retrofit services ? What traps to avoid ?

    I was in the retro fit business since the 80's, started out with Fanuc, but found them hard to deal with, I eventually settled for Mitsubishi, a great company.
    For the small guy with the smaller machines, I used to shoe in a PC/Galil based system using a HMI software developed by Galil at that time.
    I also used Acroloop, Galil competitor, in many ways the Acroloop was better, but they sold out to one of the big guys and they were not the same.
    I gave a customer a price and stuck to it, fortunately for me, in this part of the world, I was the only game in town, this together with service, eventually took on a partner due to the work load, we were kept pretty busy!
    Al.
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    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.


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    Default Re: How do you guys, price your retrofit services ? What traps to avoid ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Al_The_Man View Post
    I was in the retro fit business since the 80's, started out with Fanuc, but found them hard to deal with, I eventually settled for Mitsubishi, a great company.
    For the small guy with the smaller machines, I used to shoe in a PC/Galil based system using a HMI software developed by Galil at that time.
    I also used Acroloop, Galil competitor, in many ways the Acroloop was better, but they sold out to one of the big guys and they were not the same.
    I gave a customer a price and stuck to it, fortunately for me, in this part of the world, I was the only game in town, this together with service, eventually took on a partner due to the work load, we were kept pretty busy!
    Al.
    .
    Thanks for the reply Al_The_Man, always a joy to read your very helpful posts, in fact I was going to ask you by PM but, refrained from bothering you an started this thread instead.

    I guess competition is low around me, as a guy with an old Fanuc EDM was quoted ~$2000 to get it connected to a PC through RS-232...etc. to upload gcode instead of typing it on the machine's panel.

    What do you guys consider a reasonable amount of time to read docs + install + wire +tune a new to you servo bundle ? I am aware that professional work costs money but, I'd hate to become an "overcharging learner".

    Thanks very much !



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    Default Re: How do you guys, price your retrofit services ? What traps to avoid ?

    Quote Originally Posted by bmn View Post
    I guess competition is low around me, as a guy with an old Fanuc EDM was quoted ~$2000 to get it connected to a PC through RS-232...
    What do you guys consider a reasonable amount of time to read docs + install + wire +tune a new to you servo bundle ? I am aware that professional work costs money but, I'd hate to become an "overcharging learner".
    !
    Seems a little steep to supply a serial cable and there is terminal S/W out there free for RS232.
    Sounds like a Fanuc service charge!
    I liked to do much of the research on my own time, then set a price when a quote is requested.
    Not sure what the market is like where you are located, but the bare minimum I would charge was $350.00/day for service.
    Retro-fits would be quite a lot more.
    Al.

    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.


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    Default Re: How do you guys, price your retrofit services ? What traps to avoid ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Al_The_Man View Post
    Seems a little steep to supply a serial cable and there is terminal S/W out there free for RS232.
    Sounds like a Fanuc service charge!
    I liked to do much of the research on my own time, then set a price when a quote is requested.
    Not sure what the market is like where you are located, but the bare minimum I would charge was $350.00/day for service.
    Retro-fits would be quite a lot more.
    Al.
    Thanks for the figures Al_The_Man !

    It sure was very steep considering the free S/W but, I quoted that moron a little more than half that price and he found it too high and wanted me to work for the $100 parts I needed him to cut and said it'd be an experience to me... when I stuck to my price, he said I had no experience ...so lame he didn't even negotiate I was not going to work for the privilege of working as it wouldn't even cover my commuting costs.

    Thanks very much !



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    Community Moderator Jim Dawson's Avatar
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    Default Re: How do you guys, price your retrofit services ? What traps to avoid ?

    Quote Originally Posted by bmn View Post
    ...

    What do you guys consider a reasonable amount of time to read docs + install + wire +tune a new to you servo bundle ? I am aware that professional work costs money but, I'd hate to become an "overcharging learner".

    Thanks very much !
    In general I would not quote a job on a machine that is new to me without looking at both the machine and the documentation. That may require physically going to the customer (assuming easy driving distance, 100 miles or so) to look at the machine and taking pictures of both the machine and the documentation. The time I spend driving and looking at a machine also depends on the size of the job. I would normally not charge for this, or maybe I should say that it's included in the quote if I get the job. Sometimes I'll ask the customer to take pictures of the machine and copy the documentation. In other words, free estimates. If looking at the machine requires air travel, then I invoice the customer for travel expenses only.

    In any case, I have to review everything in order to prepare a quote. It may take a day or so to prepare a quote, but if the customer decides not to proceed then you lose that time. That is just part of your operating cost.

    For a normal on-site CNC retrofit, the install + wiring + tuning, normally 1 to 3 days depending on the complexity of the job. For other jobs it may be a few days to a couple of weeks or more, and may require both work in my shop in addition to on-site work.

    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA


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    Community Moderator Al_The_Man's Avatar
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    Default Re: How do you guys, price your retrofit services ? What traps to avoid ?

    Another time consuming job was writing the PLC ladder, especially if a relatively complex tool changer was in place etc.. All this has to be allowed for.
    After the job, then the required CAD drawings and any other documentation should be implemented and allowed for in the price.
    Fortunately I have a copy of AutoCad which does a good job.
    Al.

    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.


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    Default Re: How do you guys, price your retrofit services ? What traps to avoid ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Dawson View Post
    In general I would not quote a job on a machine that is new to me without looking at both the machine and the documentation. That may require physically going to the customer (assuming easy driving distance, 100 miles or so) to look at the machine and taking pictures of both the machine and the documentation. The time I spend driving and looking at a machine also depends on the size of the job. I would normally not charge for this, or maybe I should say that it's included in the quote if I get the job. Sometimes I'll ask the customer to take pictures of the machine and copy the documentation. In other words, free estimates. If looking at the machine requires air travel, then I invoice the customer for travel expenses only.

    In any case, I have to review everything in order to prepare a quote. It may take a day or so to prepare a quote, but if the customer decides not to proceed then you lose that time. That is just part of your operating cost.

    For a normal on-site CNC retrofit, the install + wiring + tuning, normally 1 to 3 days depending on the complexity of the job. For other jobs it may be a few days to a couple of weeks or more, and may require both work in my shop in addition to on-site work.
    Thanks for the figures Jim !

    A 100 miles, Wow ! I sure didn't look at it that way... my latest visit was an under 30min 20Km trip as the road wasn't congested so, I can't complain I guess but work volume is low around me so, it might explain the steep rate of that established competitor...

    For a normal on-site CNC retrofit, the install + wiring + tuning, normally 1 to 3 days depending on the complexity of the job. For other jobs it may be a few days to a couple of weeks or more, and may require both work in my shop in addition to on-site work.
    Wow, seems cheap to me for a CNC retrofit ? is that just the motor bundles upgrade excluding machine controller ?

    How are the odds for you that your craftsmanship is below the parts cost ? how often does that happen ?

    Thanks very much !



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    Default Re: How do you guys, price your retrofit services ? What traps to avoid ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Al_The_Man View Post
    Another time consuming job was writing the PLC ladder, especially if a relatively complex tool changer was in place etc.. All this has to be allowed for.
    After the job, then the required CAD drawings and any other documentation should be implemented and allowed for in the price.
    Fortunately I have a copy of AutoCad which does a good job.
    Al.
    Never thought about documentation, I was expecting operator training though...

    No tool changer in this case, but I'll have to figure out a machine controller... I was thinking about EMC2 which should be relatively straight forward for a simple 3 axis ... how does that compare to your Galil solution from your experience ?

    Thanks very much !



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    Default Re: How do you guys, price your retrofit services ? What traps to avoid ?

    Quote Originally Posted by bmn View Post
    Thanks for the figures Jim !

    Wow, seems cheap to me for a CNC retrofit ? is that just the motor bundles upgrade excluding machine controller ?

    How are the odds for you that your craftsmanship is below the parts cost ? how often does that happen ?

    Thanks very much !
    My Pleasure.

    It is most common that the cost of parts exceeds the cost of the labor.

    Let's look at some real world examples:

    1) My milling machine. Parts cost about $3500. About 8 hours labor. Controls only, no motors. So rewire the control panel for the new controls, tune.

    2) CNC router. Parts cost about $3500. About 12 hrs labor. Replaced motors & drives only. Install motors, pull in new cables & wire, tune. Some control panel rewiring, but used original controls.

    3) CNC router. Parts cost about $4500. About 4 days labor. Rebuild control panel in my shop, build new motor mounts. Replace both motors and controls.

    4) My lathe, very complex project. Parts cost about $7500. About 2 weeks labor. Replace motors & drives. New controls, complete control panel rebuild.

    Like Al, I use Galil products in my retrofits. But in most cases you need to be an industrial programmer to use Galil products, I write my own CNC software. Mach3 does have a plugin for Galil, but it doesn't work well. CamSoft also sells Galil products with their upgrade packages. Galil products are very flexible and can be programmed to run any machine that requires a motion controller. They are somewhat expensive compared to other available options, but they are industrial class devices and I have been installing them for about 25 years.

    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA


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    Default Re: How do you guys, price your retrofit services ? What traps to avoid ?

    For my part, the Mitsubishi is excellent but not cheap, a large 3 axis mill would be around at least $10K plus for the control alone, ~ one week on site labour then a couple of days documentation.
    Most of my customers were hi end manufacturers, buses, agricultural, railways, aerospace = assembly line type outfits.
    The small one-man owner operations I used Acroloop or Galil.
    In between the retro's, I did service work.
    Al.

    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.


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    Default Re: How do you guys, price your retrofit services ? What traps to avoid ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Al_The_Man View Post
    For my part, the Mitsubishi is excellent but not cheap, a large 3 axis mill would be around at least $10K plus for the control alone, ~ one week on site labour then a couple of days documentation.
    Most of my customers were hi end manufacturers, buses, agricultural, railways, aerospace = assembly line type outfits.
    The small one-man owner operations I used Acroloop or Galil.
    In between the retro's, I did service work.
    Al.
    Thanks for the real life example Al_The_Man !

    So, a retrofit is kind of your thanksgiving dinner...once in a while... I didn't realize that Mitsubishi was so expensive, where can I find a price list to give my customer a comparison basis for the Chinese stuff ? I know it's like comparing a BMW to a Maruti... but at least the customer will be aware that it is his choice.

    Do you know of any cheap & cheerful Chinese controller for simple 4 axis machining ?

    Thanks very much !



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    Default Re: How do you guys, price your retrofit services ? What traps to avoid ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Dawson View Post
    My Pleasure.

    It is most common that the cost of parts exceeds the cost of the labor.

    Let's look at some real world examples:

    1) My milling machine. Parts cost about $3500. About 8 hours labor. Controls only, no motors. So rewire the control panel for the new controls, tune.

    2) CNC router. Parts cost about $3500. About 12 hrs labor. Replaced motors & drives only. Install motors, pull in new cables & wire, tune. Some control panel rewiring, but used original controls.

    3) CNC router. Parts cost about $4500. About 4 days labor. Rebuild control panel in my shop, build new motor mounts. Replace both motors and controls.

    4) My lathe, very complex project. Parts cost about $7500. About 2 weeks labor. Replace motors & drives. New controls, complete control panel rebuild.

    Like Al, I use Galil products in my retrofits. But in most cases you need to be an industrial programmer to use Galil products, I write my own CNC software. Mach3 does have a plugin for Galil, but it doesn't work well. CamSoft also sells Galil products with their upgrade packages. Galil products are very flexible and can be programmed to run any machine that requires a motion controller. They are somewhat expensive compared to other available options, but they are industrial class devices and I have been installing them for about 25 years.
    Thanks for the real life figures Jim !

    Industrial programming ? how involved is that ? I have the basics in C language but, I have no idea what it really takes... I saw on their vid that they had a Python wrapper (me knows zit about snakes) so, yeah...

    Do you just code a custom UI or is that some sort of glorified ladder program pushing API buttons and feeding them with parameters ? so, you end up with a FrankenApp which is a patchwork of custom UI and API calls, right ?
    Well, chances are I don't want to get involved in that on this project, where an EMC2 or simple plug&play Chinese controller might do the trick.

    What do you get from a Galil solution compared to an EMC2+Mesa interfaces ? apart from industrial grade HW solution ?

    Thanks very much !



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    Default Re: How do you guys, price your retrofit services ? What traps to avoid ?

    Quote Originally Posted by bmn View Post
    Thanks for the real life figures Jim !

    Industrial programming ? how involved is that ? I have the basics in C language but, I have no idea what it really takes... I saw on their vid that they had a Python wrapper (me knows zit about snakes) so, yeah...

    Do you just code a custom UI or is that some sort of glorified ladder program pushing API buttons and feeding them with parameters ? so, you end up with a FrankenApp which is a patchwork of custom UI and API calls, right ?
    Well, chances are I don't want to get involved in that on this project, where an EMC2 or simple plug&play Chinese controller might do the trick.

    What do you get from a Galil solution compared to an EMC2+Mesa interfaces ? apart from industrial grade HW solution ?

    Thanks very much !

    The Galil UI software can be programmed in several languages, and yes, it uses API calls. C++, C#, and VB.net are quite common, Python and other languages less so. I use VB.net.

    The UI displays the normal information that the operator needs to run the machine, and allows operator control of the normal machine functions required for operation using mouse or keyboard. It also does the file handling for loading and editing G code, and setting up tool offsets and that kind of thing. The UI also translates the G code into DMC code that the Galil can understand. When running a job, the primary purpose of the UI is to keep the command buffer full so the controller does not run out of things to do before the end of the job. So yes, I would say it's a FrankenApp and pretty much works like any other CNC operator interface.

    The primary reason for me using a Galil product is that it's easy for me to program and is very flexible. As I said above, it will run any machine that requires a motion controller, not limited to CNC machine tools. Writing my own software allows me to easily make any changes or add functionality as needed. I have all of the communication modules written and can drop those into a program to create a UI for any type of a machine.

    For most CNC machine tool applications, the EMC2+Mesa interfaces will work fine.

    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA


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    Default Re: How do you guys, price your retrofit services ? What traps to avoid ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Dawson View Post
    The Galil UI software can be programmed in several languages, and yes, it uses API calls. C++, C#, and VB.net are quite common, Python and other languages less so. I use VB.net.

    The UI displays the normal information that the operator needs to run the machine, and allows operator control of the normal machine functions required for operation using mouse or keyboard. It also does the file handling for loading and editing G code, and setting up tool offsets and that kind of thing. The UI also translates the G code into DMC code that the Galil can understand. When running a job, the primary purpose of the UI is to keep the command buffer full so the controller does not run out of things to do before the end of the job. So yes, I would say it's a FrankenApp and pretty much works like any other CNC operator interface.

    The primary reason for me using a Galil product is that it's easy for me to program and is very flexible. As I said above, it will run any machine that requires a motion controller, not limited to CNC machine tools. Writing my own software allows me to easily make any changes or add functionality as needed. I have all of the communication modules written and can drop those into a program to create a UI for any type of a machine.

    For most CNC machine tool applications, the EMC2+Mesa interfaces will work fine.
    Thanks for the reply Jim !

    Didn't look at it that way ! if Galil is your automation Swiss knife then, it makes sense to bother learning/mastering the tool which allows you to diversify/broaden your market opportunities.

    So, you get paid the same whether you work on a machine tool or a skinny flow pack machine, it only depends on the time it takes

    Thanks very much !



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    Default Re: How do you guys, price your retrofit services ? What traps to avoid ?

    Quote Originally Posted by bmn View Post
    Thanks for the reply Jim !

    Didn't look at it that way ! if Galil is your automation Swiss knife then, it makes sense to bother learning/mastering the tool which allows you to diversify/broaden your market opportunities.

    So, you get paid the same whether you work on a machine tool or a skinny flow pack machine, it only depends on the time it takes

    Thanks very much !

    You're welcome.

    Galil = Swiss Army Knife of automation controllers. That is very good, I like that

    Designing and building machines for any purpose is what I do or rather used to do, I'm mostly retired now. But I still do some stuff.

    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA


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    Default Re: How do you guys, price your retrofit services ? What traps to avoid ?

    Quote Originally Posted by bmn View Post
    Thanks for the real life example Al_The_Man !

    Do you know of any cheap & cheerful Chinese controller for simple 4 axis machining ?

    !
    If I was still in it to the same degree, I think I would be looking at Dynomotion/Kanalog They have a forum site here and support looks very good.
    I was always surprised that Galil did not come out with their own front end controller as they did with the now legacy 1000 card, which was a nice HMI for small systems, I think the posts I made on their forum about the lack of PLC factor, got them going with one eventually, Acroloop had 5 PLC controllers on the Card!!.
    Al.

    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.


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    Default Re: How do you guys, price your retrofit services ? What traps to avoid ?

    If I may add my 2 cents, though you seem to have solid advice from very experienced people already.

    I have ran a number of businesses in various industries over the years (gawd that makes me feel old) & found there are all types of customers out there. Some you will keep forever and some you can't run away from fast enough. Time & experience will help you differentiate the two.

    As far as setting a rate goes it very much gets down to confidence. Confidence in yourself, your skill set and your ability to complete the task. You have worked HARD to gain your knowledge. And you continue to work HARD to keep it relevant and up to date. You have worked HARD doing the grunt work, working your way through the system to become the man (or woman) you are today. You have spent you hard earned cash as you progressed through the system on tools and equipment to make you more efficient in what you do. If what you do was easy then every mug would be doing it. Don't sell yourself or your hard work short!

    On the business front:
    It is important to acquaint yourself with reliable suppliers with a quality product who actually know what they are selling. Treat these people with the respect they deserve. When things don't go according to plan, and they will. These people will soon become your crutch & ultimately your savior.

    It's a business deal, and a customer is just that. Many will comport themselves as "a friend", but this is only a ploy to get a sweeter deal. A friend is someone who's house you have been to for dinner, or gone on holidays with etc. etc. How many customers can you say you have done this with? While we're on the topic, that never works either. Friends and business truly DON'T mix.

    A paying customer is entitled to a few things. Your professionalism in work, advice and manner. To be kept in the loop, this applies to delays as well as running on time updates. Respect, the person you are dealing with is more than likely just doing his/her job. They undoubtedly have someone THEY need to answer to.

    Be reliable and trustworthy! If you say you're going to do then do it. If you're doubtful, then be upfront about that. If you think you can't then just say no. Failures happen (refer to Murphy's Law) but there is nothing worse than the failure you know you should have avoided.

    Accept responsibility for your failures. It's hard, but trying to BS yourself away from blame makes matters worse. Accept and deal with it. You're only human after all

    Never forget it's YOUR name on the finished job. That means it's your name attached to the decision to use cheaper or inferior products, or to use scotch-locks where solder joints should have been etc. From experience I can tell you a customer never says the job failed because I pushed for unreasonable deadlines or I chose to go with a cheaper product.... They simply say (insert your name) F'd up, he's sht, don't use him.

    Don't be afraid of being an "overcharging learner" as you put it (within reason of course). The nature of the beast is that new things will pop up from time to time. Just try to handle it without scratching your head or that lost look on your face. Someone on this forum once had a tag that read something like "If you think you know everything you soon realize you actually know nothing". So true....

    Last but not least, this is the advice I gave to a few of my apprentices when they wanted to go their own way with a new business venture. F%$K OFF YOU F*$^ING INGRATE...YOU PIECE OF Sh! Just playing. What I actually said was pick something you're good at, something you enjoy doing and work hard until you become the first name that falls from peoples lips when they think of that thing.

    Sorry if I wandered off topic a little, it's just that I see you want to succeed and I want you to succeed. If I can contribute to this with my advice/experience then I am happy

    You want value? How's that for stretching the absolute out of my 2 cents worth



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    Default Re: How do you guys, price your retrofit services ? What traps to avoid ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Al_The_Man View Post
    If I was still in it to the same degree, I think I would be looking at Dynomotion/Kanalog They have a forum site here and support looks very good.
    I was always surprised that Galil did not come out with their own front end controller as they did with the now legacy 1000 card, which was a nice HMI for small systems, I think the posts I made on their forum about the lack of PLC factor, got them going with one eventually, Acroloop had 5 PLC controllers on the Card!!.
    Al.
    Thanks or the tip !

    Dynomotion/Kflop/Kmotion is interesting, too bad it relies on a windows host but, there's apparently a Linux port...

    Thanks very much !



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    Default Re: How do you guys, price your retrofit services ? What traps to avoid ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hytek View Post
    If I may add my 2 cents, though you seem to have solid advice from very experienced people already.

    I have ran a number of businesses in various industries over the years (gawd that makes me feel old) & found there are all types of customers out there. Some you will keep forever and some you can't run away from fast enough. Time & experience will help you differentiate the two.

    As far as setting a rate goes it very much gets down to confidence. Confidence in yourself, your skill set and your ability to complete the task. You have worked HARD to gain your knowledge. And you continue to work HARD to keep it relevant and up to date. You have worked HARD doing the grunt work, working your way through the system to become the man (or woman) you are today. You have spent you hard earned cash as you progressed through the system on tools and equipment to make you more efficient in what you do. If what you do was easy then every mug would be doing it. Don't sell yourself or your hard work short!

    On the business front:
    It is important to acquaint yourself with reliable suppliers with a quality product who actually know what they are selling. Treat these people with the respect they deserve. When things don't go according to plan, and they will. These people will soon become your crutch & ultimately your savior.

    It's a business deal, and a customer is just that. Many will comport themselves as "a friend", but this is only a ploy to get a sweeter deal. A friend is someone who's house you have been to for dinner, or gone on holidays with etc. etc. How many customers can you say you have done this with? While we're on the topic, that never works either. Friends and business truly DON'T mix.

    A paying customer is entitled to a few things. Your professionalism in work, advice and manner. To be kept in the loop, this applies to delays as well as running on time updates. Respect, the person you are dealing with is more than likely just doing his/her job. They undoubtedly have someone THEY need to answer to.

    Be reliable and trustworthy! If you say you're going to do then do it. If you're doubtful, then be upfront about that. If you think you can't then just say no. Failures happen (refer to Murphy's Law) but there is nothing worse than the failure you know you should have avoided.

    Accept responsibility for your failures. It's hard, but trying to BS yourself away from blame makes matters worse. Accept and deal with it. You're only human after all

    Never forget it's YOUR name on the finished job. That means it's your name attached to the decision to use cheaper or inferior products, or to use scotch-locks where solder joints should have been etc. From experience I can tell you a customer never says the job failed because I pushed for unreasonable deadlines or I chose to go with a cheaper product.... They simply say (insert your name) F'd up, he's sht, don't use him.

    Don't be afraid of being an "overcharging learner" as you put it (within reason of course). The nature of the beast is that new things will pop up from time to time. Just try to handle it without scratching your head or that lost look on your face. Someone on this forum once had a tag that read something like "If you think you know everything you soon realize you actually know nothing". So true....

    Last but not least, this is the advice I gave to a few of my apprentices when they wanted to go their own way with a new business venture. F%$K OFF YOU F*$^ING INGRATE...YOU PIECE OF Sh! Just playing. What I actually said was pick something you're good at, something you enjoy doing and work hard until you become the first name that falls from peoples lips when they think of that thing.

    Sorry if I wandered off topic a little, it's just that I see you want to succeed and I want you to succeed. If I can contribute to this with my advice/experience then I am happy

    You want value? How's that for stretching the absolute out of my 2 cents worth
    Wow, very nice sum up, & funny too, talk about golden 2 cents

    Thanks very much Hytek !



  20. #40
    Community Moderator Al_The_Man's Avatar
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    Default Re: How do you guys, price your retrofit services ? What traps to avoid ?

    Quote Originally Posted by bmn View Post
    Dynomotion/Kflop/Kmotion is interesting, too bad it relies on a windows host but, there's apparently a Linux port...
    Yes, just uses it as a HMI.
    Al.

    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.


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How do you guys, price your retrofit services ? What traps to avoid ?

How do you guys, price your retrofit services ? What traps to avoid ?