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Thread: Large Epoxy granite VMC building

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Large Epoxy granite VMC building

    Is the 1kw servo for the spindle?

    Sent from my MI 5s Plus using Tapatalk

    Suat
    Proud father, C# developer, Model heli pilot, newbie free time machinist for hobby


  2. #22

    Default Re: Large Epoxy granite VMC building

    Quote Originally Posted by vakeiros View Post
    I haven't made the order now but pricing is:
    Non absolute:
    cnc1000mdb 5 axis + E panel - 980usd
    1kw servo 80mm frame 4Nm - 131usd
    1kw servo driver - 145usd
    With all the needed cables
    Motors have Japan tamagawa encoders

    Absolute system
    Cnc1000mdc 5 axis + E panel - 1070usd
    1kw servo 80mm frame 4Nm - 170usd
    1kw driver - 200usb
    All cables included and motors with 17bit Japan tamagawa encoders

    The mpg 5axis hand mpg is 85usd
    That's really not a bad price, around $2,000 US for full control system with all three servo axis motors.



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    Default Re: Large Epoxy granite VMC building

    They are not bad price, you can keep your cam software using mach3 compatible. I will consider to retrofit lathe, cheaper ...



  4. #24
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    Default Re: Large Epoxy granite VMC building

    Quote Originally Posted by asuratman View Post
    They are not bad price, you can keep your cam software using mach3 compatible. I will consider to retrofit lathe, cheaper ...
    yeah I asked for the programming manual exactly for that to check the gcodes, and they are very similar to mach3, at most need to do some slight changes in the post processor but I don't think so....



  5. #25
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    Default Re: Large Epoxy granite VMC building

    Quote Originally Posted by AutomatedIngen View Post
    That's really not a bad price, around $2,000 US for full control system with all three servo axis motors.
    yeah that's exactly it... it adds shipping costs of course but 2600usd total for the absolute controller + servos + drivers and all the wiring looks pretty good to me. I'll be ordering this stuff really soon so I can start playing with it I'll make a review once I have everything tested



  6. #26
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    Default Re: Large Epoxy granite VMC building

    Hi,
    have you ever tried casting something in Epoxy?

    I have not tried Epoxy/Granite but I do have some experience casting Epoxy components for high voltage assemblies and encapsulating
    high voltage assemblies/circuits.

    It was a steep learning curve.

    Mold making and preparation and mold release are critical.
    All epoxies exotherm to a certain extent, you must select the right epoxy or you will be throwing stuff out the door trying to squirt it with water!
    If you think that's a joke go ahead and try. Without attention to exotherm you will sink.
    You need to know about viscosity of your selected epoxy.....for instance you can warm the epoxies resin and hardener prior to mixing to get
    a runnier mix and therefore easier to cast but only at the expense of potential exotherm.
    Next you will need to decide if you need vacuum degassing, its important in high voltage stuff, not sure about machine beds.

    No doubt many of these items are covered in the appropriate forum. Take advantage of what others have learnt. Epoxy is a costly material
    in the volumes you are talking about. I would certainly consider making some smaller expoy/granite parts BEFORE I committed myself to a project
    of the scale you are talking about.

    Craig



  7. #27
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    Default Re: Large Epoxy granite VMC building

    Quote Originally Posted by joeavaerage View Post
    Hi,
    have you ever tried casting something in Epoxy?

    I have not tried Epoxy/Granite but I do have some experience casting Epoxy components for high voltage assemblies and encapsulating
    high voltage assemblies/circuits.

    It was a steep learning curve.

    Mold making and preparation and mold release are critical.
    All epoxies exotherm to a certain extent, you must select the right epoxy or you will be throwing stuff out the door trying to squirt it with water!
    If you think that's a joke go ahead and try. Without attention to exotherm you will sink.
    You need to know about viscosity of your selected epoxy.....for instance you can warm the epoxies resin and hardener prior to mixing to get
    a runnier mix and therefore easier to cast but only at the expense of potential exotherm.
    Next you will need to decide if you need vacuum degassing, its important in high voltage stuff, not sure about machine beds.

    No doubt many of these items are covered in the appropriate forum. Take advantage of what others have learnt. Epoxy is a costly material
    in the volumes you are talking about. I would certainly consider making some smaller expoy/granite parts BEFORE I committed myself to a project
    of the scale you are talking about.

    Craig
    hi thanks for the advice, yes I did used this stuff before, I made epoxy granite before, didn't made extended casting tests but I will do.
    I made the base of my machine with about 200kg of this stuff and yes I do know what this stuff is... like I said I will do some testing with release stuff and molds.

    best regards



  8. #28
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    Default Re: Large Epoxy granite VMC building

    well, I went forward with the controller and motion servos. went with the CNC1000Mdc-5 axis (however, I might end up using only 4 axis, since the 5th axis might not be necessary for the ATC, I'm now more convinced that an AC motor will do the job just fine with the Geneva mechanism), 3*1kw 80mm servos, 2500RPM 4NM + driver absolute. should be here before the end of the month.

    next I'll order the linear stuff, soon I'll go to my friend with the Y cover design to see if he can make the elements to my spec.
    also will order some epoxy to start making tests with molds and release agents and agglomerates. as for agglomerates, I'm thinking to use gravel and multiple sand grades, need to figure it out the ratios tho... I'll have to make a search on the web for these.

    best regards



  9. #29

    Default Re: Large Epoxy granite VMC building

    Quote Originally Posted by vakeiros View Post
    well, I went forward with the controller and motion servos. went with the CNC1000Mdc-5 axis (however, I might end up using only 4 axis, since the 5th axis might not be necessary for the ATC, I'm now more convinced that an AC motor will do the job just fine with the Geneva mechanism), 3*1kw 80mm servos, 2500RPM 4NM + driver absolute. should be here before the end of the month.

    next I'll order the linear stuff, soon I'll go to my friend with the Y cover design to see if he can make the elements to my spec.
    also will order some epoxy to start making tests with molds and release agents and agglomerates. as for agglomerates, I'm thinking to use gravel and multiple sand grades, need to figure it out the ratios tho... I'll have to make a search on the web for these.

    best regards
    Excellent, your really pressing on here. Most people (like me so far) have intentions of building something but take long or never get there, you on the other hand have taken the first leap with purchasing the electronics. Please let us know how the electronics work out for you. I have to admit purchasing the electronics is yet again an odd place to start but I guess your trying to fit the motor mounts to the servos and ensure you have the control system checked out before you continue.

    Looking forward to the mechanical portion of your build as well, and the actual building of the machine. Make sure you post your epoxy test and release agents etc so others have a good idea of what to use for future builds.

    Have a look at this link, he does quite a few test. May be something useful to get you started: https://www.adambender.info/single-p...e-Frame-How-To



  10. #30
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    Default Re: Large Epoxy granite VMC building

    well I really want to get the machine done as soon as possible to me.

    Yes electronics were more at the end of my shopping list but as Starks say, "winter is coming" and I want to have the electronics all tested prior to assembly, also need to tweak the post processor of my cam to have it posting the right code for the machine, this way I'll have plenty of time for that on those cold nights. servos weren't even part of the plan at the beggining but the price wasn't bad and as my initial plan was using the nema34 I have here, the work of making the mounts and making all the wiring, knowing me as I know either I would upgrade them in a few months or not ugrading it at all so I decided to save in shipping and order them right now and it's done, no need for changes in the future... also I want to have the motors here so I can actually see them and make sure they fit were they belong... I'll be making a review on the electronics since I think if it works nice it's a really nice option not at that high price... let's see.

    yeah I'll try to document the mechanical stage of the build the best I can! all testing and ingredients will be displayed. just took a look at the link you shared those were nice tests and a nice place to start with, he went out with the gravel but I really want gravel there, will increase overall strength IMO
    I made some testing on my own when I epoxy filled the base of my other machine BUT my hard drive died on me and I don't have the recipies anymore... I'll have to start all over again... I got it right within 3-4 tests... anyway, life goes on...

    thanks for the interest on this build! it gives me strength to go on



  11. #31
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    Default Re: Large Epoxy granite VMC building

    also need to tweak the post processor of my cam to have it posting the right code for the machine
    Have you checked with the factory about the compatibility with mach3, so you won't have problem to program your machine.



  12. #32
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    Default Re: Large Epoxy granite VMC building

    Quote Originally Posted by asuratman View Post
    Have you checked with the factory about the compatibility with mach3, so you won't have problem to program your machine.
    I have asked for the programming manual so I could take a look at the controller codding it's very very close to the mach3. I'm not saying that's a 100% the same cause I really haven't check all the stuff but the basic movement stuff is the same, spindle commands are the same the regular m commands are the same, coord systems are the same. so I might need to tweak just in the specific stuff like custom m codes or so but everything I look at was the same. as I'm not used to work with auto coolants and that kind of stuff I want to have the controller here soon as possible so I can get familiar with.



  13. #33
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    Default Re: Large Epoxy granite VMC building

    Hi guys, sorry for the absence but I've been out of town last week and no further advances. Anyway, I've been tweaking the design and been thinking about the head... that's me, always thinking... thinking too much I guess...
    Well, I was almost sure I was keeping the head design as it is, it's basically a steel box, all welded and then EG filled. The idea was had the box made, filled then machine both sides flat so they became parallel then just make the holes and threads for the linear blocks and for mounting the spindle. this way I would have an high level of adjustment for tramming the head. if needed I would epoxy joint the spindle mount to the head as I'm going to do with the column and base...

    But after some thinking casting the whole head might be a valid option... I had the intention of buying the spindle+cast iron mounts+air cylinder all from the same manufacturer but the cast iron mounts are very heavy and will increase both the cost of the unit itself as the shipping (shipping cost doubles) so the idea of casting the head is growing on me...

    I know it's still early for this kind of concerns but how the hell am I gonna cast this thing fairly straight???

    so what am I thinking to do? I have many ideas...
    first one:
    machine the plate where the spindle screws in, in the top of that machine a recess where I would insert a tube with a nice fit for the spindle so I could cast the the head and than just mount the spindle in. Problem. what if I need to tram the spindle? I mean, this would be a great way of doing assuming all ended up absolutelly perfect whitch it won't lol...

    from that comes the second idea:
    so machine the spindle plate with the spindle threads and an oversized hole for the spindle (let's say +1 to 1.5mm diameter), machine a small recessin the back for a plastic oversized tube (PVC or something like that) so admiting the spindle is 90mm diameter, I'll need an aluminum tube with a close fit for it so let's say its 100mm OD and 90mm ID, so let's say the PVC pipe would be 110OD, ok I would cast the head with the 110mm tube there and after the EG had cured I would remove the PVC pipe and end up with a 110mm hole for the spindle, plenty of space for adjustment. the backplate would be already flat on the linear block side so just needed to drill and tap the holes for assembly. this would be the reference face, next either set the head in a precision angle plate and machine the plate where the spindle seat flat or, even better, do all tramming (some orings in the screws between the spindle and the head so will be a gap between the head and spindle flange) and epoxy joint the flange with the head, in the end, insert the tight fit tube from the upside and epoxy fill the gap between the tube and the head body...
    what you guys think? of course I can only decide and design exactly what I need when I have the actual spindle... I'm looking for some HQ chinese spindles with nice bearings and also a Taiwan made spindle. the Taiwan made looks awesome is 100mm in diameter and uses 4*7009 bearings while the chinese I'm seeing are 90mm in diameter and use either 4*7008 or 2*7008+2*7007 bearings... prices are not far from each.... so probably I'll go with the Taiwan... the one made in taiwan has grooves in the body for oil cooling tho don't really know if I'll need that but I wasn't counting on using that...

    I don't know if I've been explicit enough with the process but I think it will work...let's see... I'll be waiting for some comments. anyway the head will be the last component being casted so I guess I'll have a long time to think about it lol



  14. #34

    Default Re: Large Epoxy granite VMC building

    Quote Originally Posted by vakeiros View Post
    Hi guys, sorry for the absence but I've been out of town last week and no further advances. Anyway, I've been tweaking the design and been thinking about the head... that's me, always thinking... thinking too much I guess...
    Well, I was almost sure I was keeping the head design as it is, it's basically a steel box, all welded and then EG filled. The idea was had the box made, filled then machine both sides flat so they became parallel then just make the holes and threads for the linear blocks and for mounting the spindle. this way I would have an high level of adjustment for tramming the head. if needed I would epoxy joint the spindle mount to the head as I'm going to do with the column and base...

    But after some thinking casting the whole head might be a valid option... I had the intention of buying the spindle+cast iron mounts+air cylinder all from the same manufacturer but the cast iron mounts are very heavy and will increase both the cost of the unit itself as the shipping (shipping cost doubles) so the idea of casting the head is growing on me...

    I know it's still early for this kind of concerns but how the hell am I gonna cast this thing fairly straight???

    so what am I thinking to do? I have many ideas...
    first one:
    machine the plate where the spindle screws in, in the top of that machine a recess where I would insert a tube with a nice fit for the spindle so I could cast the the head and than just mount the spindle in. Problem. what if I need to tram the spindle? I mean, this would be a great way of doing assuming all ended up absolutelly perfect whitch it won't lol...

    from that comes the second idea:
    so machine the spindle plate with the spindle threads and an oversized hole for the spindle (let's say +1 to 1.5mm diameter), machine a small recessin the back for a plastic oversized tube (PVC or something like that) so admiting the spindle is 90mm diameter, I'll need an aluminum tube with a close fit for it so let's say its 100mm OD and 90mm ID, so let's say the PVC pipe would be 110OD, ok I would cast the head with the 110mm tube there and after the EG had cured I would remove the PVC pipe and end up with a 110mm hole for the spindle, plenty of space for adjustment. the backplate would be already flat on the linear block side so just needed to drill and tap the holes for assembly. this would be the reference face, next either set the head in a precision angle plate and machine the plate where the spindle seat flat or, even better, do all tramming (some orings in the screws between the spindle and the head so will be a gap between the head and spindle flange) and epoxy joint the flange with the head, in the end, insert the tight fit tube from the upside and epoxy fill the gap between the tube and the head body...
    what you guys think? of course I can only decide and design exactly what I need when I have the actual spindle... I'm looking for some HQ chinese spindles with nice bearings and also a Taiwan made spindle. the Taiwan made looks awesome is 100mm in diameter and uses 4*7009 bearings while the chinese I'm seeing are 90mm in diameter and use either 4*7008 or 2*7008+2*7007 bearings... prices are not far from each.... so probably I'll go with the Taiwan... the one made in taiwan has grooves in the body for oil cooling tho don't really know if I'll need that but I wasn't counting on using that...

    I don't know if I've been explicit enough with the process but I think it will work...let's see... I'll be waiting for some comments. anyway the head will be the last component being casted so I guess I'll have a long time to think about it lol
    By casting the whole head your talking about epoxy granite or cast iron?

    If I'm picturing what you mean with the PVC tube correctly then yeah it can work, but a picture would speak 1000 words



  15. #35
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    Default Re: Large Epoxy granite VMC building

    Quote Originally Posted by AutomatedIngen View Post
    By casting the whole head your talking about epoxy granite or cast iron?

    If I'm picturing what you mean with the PVC tube correctly then yeah it can work, but a picture would speak 1000 words
    casting would be epoxy granite.

    yeah I know about the image... I'll put the idea in Fusion360 when I've the time, meanwhile, I've been planning the molds for the casting...

    here're some pics. for the square holes in both the column and saddle I'm thinking cut cut some rectangle aluminum tube 80*60mm and 80*80mm 4mm wall thickness and leave them there, for the base they are quite large I guess they will be in MDF and just destroy them afterward...



    still need to find a way to secure the saddle plates where the linear blocks and ballnut set in, I think I'll stick them to the bottom steel bars that will hold the linear rails... I guess I'll figure it out at the time...

    so the idea behing the casting is leave the plates sticking out from the EG so they can be machined flat. I'll be using 40mm square steel, leaving 10mm out so I can machine them 4mm down and leave a sidewall datum. that's the idea anyway... I'll be tuning the linear way on a granite parallel anyway so not sure that the datum will do any good... It would if I counter tightned the ways with some side clamp... I actually though about doing that with countersunk screws but I don't think I'll be doing any of that... let's see.
    the mounting plates for the linear blocks, motors, bearing blocks and ballnut blocks will be in 7075 aluminum... I would like to use steel here but I can't source this kind of steel stock without buying a full length bar and I don't want to buy 6m while I'll only need 1 or 2m.. the aluminum I can buy it per size needed... as it will be casted in the EG I guess in won't matter anyway... 7075 aluminum is quite strong...

    BTW, this is the spindle i'm thinking using:


    I like this design alot better than the chineses, stronger body (larger, 100mm VS 90mm chinese), larger bearings (4*7009 VS 4*7008C or 2*7008+2*7007c chinese), possibility of cooling (I'm not sure where's the cooling exit though...), roughly same price...
    12K RPM, <0.003mm runount in the arbor, <0.008mm runout @ 300mm looks pretty nice... also I think the Taiwan design allow me to use the cylinder making all the force in the spindle shaft not in the the body through the bearing I think that's way better than forcinge the bearings for tool release...

    Last edited by vakeiros; 11-12-2018 at 06:15 PM.


  16. #36
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    Default Re: Large Epoxy granite VMC building

    That is Taiwan designed spindles but made in China so that not much different in the price ?



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    Default Re: Large Epoxy granite VMC building

    Quote Originally Posted by asuratman View Post
    That is Taiwan designed spindles but made in China so that not much different in the price ?
    it's from Kenturn actually they are made in Taiwan, at least they claim that all of their products are made in Taiwan.
    anyway I like the specs and even if it's China made and respect the specs it's fine by me...



  18. #38

    Default Re: Large Epoxy granite VMC building

    Quote Originally Posted by asuratman View Post
    That is Taiwan designed spindles but made in China so that not much different in the price ?
    Quote Originally Posted by vakeiros View Post
    casting would be epoxy granite.

    yeah I know about the image... I'll put the idea in Fusion360 when I've the time, meanwhile, I've been planning the molds for the casting...

    here're some pics. for the square holes in both the column and saddle I'm thinking cut cut some rectangle aluminum tube 80*60mm and 80*80mm 4mm wall thickness and leave them there, for the base they are quite large I guess they will be in MDF and just destroy them afterward...



    still need to find a way to secure the saddle plates where the linear blocks and ballnut set in, I think I'll stick them to the bottom steel bars that will hold the linear rails... I guess I'll figure it out at the time...

    so the idea behing the casting is leave the plates sticking out from the EG so they can be machined flat. I'll be using 40mm square steel, leaving 10mm out so I can machine them 4mm down and leave a sidewall datum. that's the idea anyway... I'll be tuning the linear way on a granite parallel anyway so not sure that the datum will do any good... It would if I counter tightned the ways with some side clamp... I actually though about doing that with countersunk screws but I don't think I'll be doing any of that... let's see.
    the mounting plates for the linear blocks, motors, bearing blocks and ballnut blocks will be in 7075 aluminum... I would like to use steel here but I can't source this kind of steel stock without buying a full length bar and I don't want to buy 6m while I'll only need 1 or 2m.. the aluminum I can buy it per size needed... as it will be casted in the EG I guess in won't matter anyway... 7075 aluminum is quite strong...

    BTW, this is the spindle i'm thinking using:


    I like this design alot better than the chineses, stronger body (larger, 100mm VS 90mm chinese), larger bearings (4*7009 VS 4*7008C or 2*7008+2*7007c chinese), possibility of cooling (I'm not sure where's the cooling exit though...), roughly same price...
    12K RPM, <0.003mm runount in the arbor, <0.008mm runout @ 300mm looks pretty nice... also I think the Taiwan design allow me to use the cylinder making all the force in the spindle shaft not in the the body through the bearing I think that's way better than forcinge the bearings for tool release...
    Your molds look good. I've read a bit about using MDF for molds and from what I have seen it's a pain to remove and cleanup after because alot of it sticks to the granite. I've thought about this a bit and I was going to encase the granite for my build in sheet metal (the outer sides). My thinking is for one I wouldn't have to remove it and also it be really easy to paint.

    Have you put any thought into casting the parts on a surface plate, that way if laid out right and if you use ground stock you wouldn't have to machine any parts after (theoretically).

    I like the spindle that you have chosen. 12k RPM ought to be nice especially if u can get a motor that has good torque to suit that full speed.



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    Default Re: Large Epoxy granite VMC building

    Quote Originally Posted by AutomatedIngen View Post
    Your molds look good. I've read a bit about using MDF for molds and from what I have seen it's a pain to remove and cleanup after because alot of it sticks to the granite. I've thought about this a bit and I was going to encase the granite for my build in sheet metal (the outer sides). My thinking is for one I wouldn't have to remove it and also it be really easy to paint.

    Have you put any thought into casting the parts on a surface plate, that way if laid out right and if you use ground stock you wouldn't have to machine any parts after (theoretically).

    I like the spindle that you have chosen. 12k RPM ought to be nice especially if u can get a motor that has good torque to suit that full speed.
    I'll do some testing on the molds/casting first, I think if I cover the MDF with painters tape and then use demoldant spray in the tape I should be ok but I'll need to test first.

    about the casting in the surface plate that's a no-go, 1st I don't own a surface plate, 2nd even I did I wouldn't risk casting epoxy on that thing! and I want to see my friend giant (to me) machines tackling my parts, I'll have the chance of playing in the Pro League XD

    about the spindle, yes I should be ok with the servo 3.7kw 12kRPM, 17.6NM from 0-6000rpm, at 12Krpm I should get 3.5Nm from the curve they sent me, and that will be plenty for my needs...

    I abandoned the metal way covers for the time being, got in touch with a chinese company that makes way covers and those guys make the Accordion Bellows type covers for all axis to my spec for 350usd... that's 5 covers including one armored one (nylon fabric accordion with steel angle sheet protecting the fabric) for the Z axis... shipping included... they look pretty good and all people that buys it are very happy with those... I won't even bother the the metal ones lol... at least for now...

    so I'm gathering the funds to buy all the linear stuff should make the order by the end of the month, meanwhile I'm searching for some good epoxy... I got in touch with a couple of dealers let's see what solutions will they have to me... also need to study some aggregates, need to source many grades of rock and sand... next week I should have some news on this camp... need to find granite sand...



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    Default Re: Large Epoxy granite VMC building

    Hi,

    I'll do some testing on the molds/casting first, I think if I cover the MDF with painters tape and then use demoldant spray in the tape I should be ok but I'll need to test first.
    Go to a boat builder or maybe an automotive fiberglass manufacturer. From them you will be able to get tooling grade spray-ready polyester resins. You spray that onto the
    molds which can then be sanded and polished to a glossy state. Wax with a carnuba release wax and just before casting spray the molds with P(oly)V(ynal)A(lcahol) release.
    You will need about 3 degrees of draft, a little more than patterns for cast iron, for molds to release.

    If you require a material that will release without treatment use polyethelene plastic. Even plastic shrink wrap releases well.

    Keep silicone waxes away from your project/work zone/ your life!!!! Silicone waxes bugger up molding/casting/laminating resins bigtime and once your work zone
    is polluted with them just about impossible to get rid of.

    Craig



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