Hi, it seams it will be interesting thread, I have feeling I will learn lot of pro things
Good luck with project, I will follow with great interest.
Hello!
Some background at first. I'm Finnish machine builder and I have retrofitted tens of machine couple last years. I got nice Brother TC225 in machine exchange couple months ago. It has "little" problem with it's speed command, it ran to limits with all axes when EM-stop have set off. That problem got fixed just replacing DAC chip (btw, there's pretty weird system for VMCD, same DAC gives speed command for each axis by sample&hold chips, but that's whole different story...), but I looked this little cute machine (I normally make really big ugly ones ) and I think it deserves better than Brother's original controller (even that is for its purpose very nice one). It is really fast machine and idea of somekind of high speed milling test start to develop.
Ok, here's what this machine going to get:
Original servos are X&Y 410W (1.4Nm nominal), top speed 4000rpm (which makes 5mm screw 20m/min rapid speeds). Z seems to be 720W, lead 5mm, original speed 15mm/min, so servo runs 3000 rpm. I firstly thought to use original servos and even solved original servo connector pinout (it couldn't get anywhere!) with scope, but I give up that idea; these Sanyo-Denki motors&drives are 25 years old, and new ones are not that expensive. So new servos would be Delta Electronics ASDA-B2 with 160 000 ppr coders (not really all that resolution is going to used...), Z get 1kW or 1.5kW and X&Y 750W. Both motors runs to up to 5000rpm (nominal 3k), so feed speed increase 20%.
Controller would be Advantech-LNC M628, Fanuc compactile closed-loop controller (3+1+1 axes) which can 4000rpm ridig tapping, 30m/min high speed milling and 60m/min rapid speed. However, without screw replace we can't reach those speeds, so we have to satisfied what we can get with originals. Also even we could run motor like 6000rpm, we probably come another problem, critical speed of screw and G-force what ball screw can stand. Anyways, I think ~4000 rpm tapping speed would give some honour to Brother original idea. I thought 5-axes modification as well, but Brother don't have enough opening or Z-movement for tilt&rotary packet.
Spindle motor is still open. Original permament magnet motor (4.1kW) runs 6k rpm, and I can use Delta's C2000 VFD for running it with no problem, but I really like to rise that 10 000 rpm. Only question is can original bearing handle that speed? Probably not... Brother's manual says there have been 10k spindle as option, but really no descrition of it what is main difference between these models. Is there some coolant unit or pressure lubricated spindle bearings? Second option is induction motor, what I can get up to 10k rpm models. I think I'll go with original way soon as I solve the bearing problem.
Tool changer is really fast its time, but there could make some improvements. Now its works with one phase motor and malta's cross mechanism. I could add there 400W servo and planetary gear if I have enough time from my works (those have to do too :/ ). Tool changer is not problem to get work way or another, controller have internal PLC and macro programming, so that's left hand job.
All electrics is going to make new and correspond European safety standards, what means safety relays, door locks, etc. stuff.
But the machine itself is mechanically good; straight all axes, ball screws and guides are in great shape, even machine's apperance could tell something else. So, I probably not going put this machine totally pieces, just little sandplast and new paint. New controller is little bit bigger than old one, so I'll make new casing for controller at local sheet metal shop.
Here's video (sorry about compressor noise) of the machine and couple photos. I'll get back to business soon as I have something new to tell!
Ps. http://www.cnczone.com/forums/vertic...-retrofit.html looks like Pivotalcustoms making same type machine another side of the globe. Nice Bro, bro! If you reading this we could change our knowledge of Brothers if you like!
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Hi, it seams it will be interesting thread, I have feeling I will learn lot of pro things
Good luck with project, I will follow with great interest.
Thank you "Zmajmr"! I'm not sure how pro this would be but I'll try my best
Anyways, goods have arrived! Still need to order bellow couplings and box for controller (I'm not that excited to do my own, local sheet metal shop makes that box lot faster than me) and make adapter plates for new servos. Maybe I can get this project further at weekend...
Here's controller and it's accessories & couple Delta's servos. I thought to use firstly M528A "all-in-one" controller, but this M628 fits more better on it's size for Brother. Also there is some nice additional features comparing smaller eco-model, this have 7-segment display where you can put numbers from PLC like alarm codes tool number etc. 6-series have CAD/CAM and DXF-import, but I have to say, both are pretty useless because there is lot better ones for PC. However, there is still quick cycles for drilling paths, pockets and so on, which I commonly use with my Deckel FP2A (which is powered by M528...).
Servos sizes are 1kW for Z, 750W X & Y. Original spindle motor stays at this stage, I just order Delta's 11kW C2000 VFD for it. Why that big? Because our grid voltage is 3x400VAC, motor 200VAC, and amps have to get enough. Original transformer have 3x200VAC, but I planned use that transformer for servos.
Controller has only 3 axes port, one spindle port. However, we can use spindle port with 4th axes and some "clever" parametering we can get closed loop spindle and open loop 4th axes. There is available 5+1 -axes version M568A, but I really couldn't see any reason to make this Bro to 5-axes. It is too small.
IO-ports include 20 in / 16 out each. Also there is serial IO port for IO expansion, but not needed. Bro would need just 20 / 16 board, let's count:
Inputs:
3 inputs for home switches
2 inputs for Z position at the tool change
4 inputs for tool magazine position coding
1 input for trips
2 door open/close
1 EM-stop
Total 13
Outputs:
2 for each EM-stop channel (machine RDY)
1 door lock
2 magazine FF/REV
1 coolant
1 air blow
1 Z brake open
Total 8
Servo IO (SRVON, RST, ALR) is in the axes ports as well MPG, and tool measurement high speed input is seperately, so those are not count this table. Limits are not needing seperate switches, just softlimits from controller based distance from zero position and hard limits, which drops second em-channel down.
Controller has some EM-stop connection inside, but those are not filling European safety standards. So we have to use real safety relay, like this Omron GS9:
This relay has point; it keep on eye both emergency channels. If there is any problem in channels (leak to ground or other voltage) it drops machine down. Also you have to seperately reset safety relay with button before game begins. Reset button's line goes through two main contactor's auxialary contacts. Yes, two contactors in serial, because if another one get stucked, and then you can't reset EM-stop... Maybe European safety standards try to shoot fly with cannon ...Need to say, it is lot safier than some 70's Bridgeport safety system which pulls down 24VDC line with resistor(!) or some 5VDC signal to Windows PC's printer port
This safety relay what I'm going to use has delay function and it is very usefull to avoid drive break down at the emergeny stop. Standards demends to put main contactors before drives, so dropping voltage down at the full load can damage the drive. Delayed relay fix the problem; firstly controller gets information of safety relay, drops down enable signals from the drives and then delayed contacts of safety relay drop down main contactors. Time between these events have to be shorter than machine user can get his/hers head between table and spindle... All this relay&wire meed can be reduced by using some fancy Omron/Siemens drives, which have own EM-stop input, but that's whole another topic...
Anyways, more to come after weekend if I get something to done!
Very interesting and pro
Little update. Because of my work (I have awful lot of work), this project takes some time... But now new box is installed and original electrical cabinet is cleaned up all wires & other old stuff. If I'm lucky, I think I can take first run for all axes next week. Spindle is little tricky, no documentation of encoder, so I have scope signals out of it.
Hi Jonne,
Your machine look very interesting! I've Sanyo Denki spindle look like your. I've some docs that could fit your driver.
Beside, I also get stuck in servo drive connection because of bad take out. Please take some close shot of your servo drive connection, specially at the big capacitor! Please check where the big capacitor hook into.
Thanks in advance!
Hmmm, what you are exactly needing? Big capacitors comes to intermediate circuit (after rectifier)... I can take some photos at weekend. If you need pinout for servo cables, here is it:
Pinout is from motherboard connector. Use this pinout with your own risk, not 100% sure is that correct. Also I'm not sure would that work with spindle, hard to say because I didn't measure that back then... Very sure just same.
If you want hunt down the pinout by yourself, here's picture which would help you:
If you have some documents, please out PM. I could take those my machine document library anyway!
My Bro's progress is quite slow now, I have so much to do, as usual (btw, if somebody likes to check my latest projects, here's link: https://drive.google.com/folderview?...FU&usp=sharing) and now we have summer (last only three months) so I have really better to do
...but some little progress have happen, cabinet is taking it's shape:
I did a search for the control your using and haven't had much luck finding information. Do you have a link to source or additional information.
Thanks
Hi Jonne, please take a look at below link, I can't insert image here.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/56044420@N07/14587914766/
Here I take a close shot at the big capacitor. Your driver should have the same connection with me.
Also, this is my driver condition
https://www.flickr.com/photos/56044420@N07/14610453462/
Full driver image here, found it on Ebay:
Sanyo Denki BL Super Servo Amplifier 60BA150VFW00 | eBay
Thanks a lot for your replay, you are so kind.
Here is a partial list of the drives and equipment ICS can repair. sales@ics-repair.com
SANYO DENKI 20BA025FXWU0 Servo Amplifier
SANYO DENKI 20BA050FFW14 Servo-Amplifier.
SANYO DENKI 20BM120MXP 3K Servo-Amplifier.
SANYO DENKI 60BA075FFW04 Servo-Amplifier.
SANYO DENKI 60BA100SFW01 Servo-Amplifier.
SANYO DENKI 60BA100SFW02 Servo-Amplifier.
SANYO DENKI 60BA100SFW03 Servo-Amplifier.
SANYO DENKI 60BA150SFW00 Servo-Amplifier.
SANYO DENKI PDT-203G-69 San-Driver DC motor control
SANYO DENKI PDT-203G-691U San-Driver DC motor control
SANYO DENKI 20BA030FFW14 Servo-Amplifier.
SANYO DENKI PRS2120C Power control card
SANYO DENKI 60BB75FXW14 Servo Amplifier.
SANYO DENKI 20BA075FFW Servo Amplifier
SANYO DENKI 20BA150FFW01 Servo Amp.
SANYO DENKI 67ZA150XXXC01 BL Super Servo Drive
SANYO DENKI APC-400C-4 Position controller.
SANYO DENKI 20BA050FFW55 Servo-Amplifier
SANYO DENKI 65BA030VDT13 Servo-Amplifier
SANYO DENKI 20BA090FFW14 Servo Amplifier
SANYO DENKI 20BA100FFW01 Servo Amplifier
SANYO DENKI 60BA100SFW05 Servo Amplifier
SANYO DENKI 60BA150SFW03 Servo Amplifier.
SANYO DENKI Tachogenerator For 20BM120MXP Motor
you can reach them by emailing sales@ics-repair.com
- - - Updated - - -
Here is a partial list of the drives and equipment ICS can repair. sales@ics-repair.com
SANYO DENKI 20BA025FXWU0 Servo Amplifier
SANYO DENKI 20BA050FFW14 Servo-Amplifier.
SANYO DENKI 20BM120MXP 3K Servo-Amplifier.
SANYO DENKI 60BA075FFW04 Servo-Amplifier.
SANYO DENKI 60BA100SFW01 Servo-Amplifier.
SANYO DENKI 60BA100SFW02 Servo-Amplifier.
SANYO DENKI 60BA100SFW03 Servo-Amplifier.
SANYO DENKI 60BA150SFW00 Servo-Amplifier.
SANYO DENKI PDT-203G-69 San-Driver DC motor control
SANYO DENKI PDT-203G-691U San-Driver DC motor control
SANYO DENKI 20BA030FFW14 Servo-Amplifier.
SANYO DENKI PRS2120C Power control card
SANYO DENKI 60BB75FXW14 Servo Amplifier.
SANYO DENKI 20BA075FFW Servo Amplifier
SANYO DENKI 20BA150FFW01 Servo Amp.
SANYO DENKI 67ZA150XXXC01 BL Super Servo Drive
SANYO DENKI APC-400C-4 Position controller.
SANYO DENKI 20BA050FFW55 Servo-Amplifier
SANYO DENKI 65BA030VDT13 Servo-Amplifier
SANYO DENKI 20BA090FFW14 Servo Amplifier
SANYO DENKI 20BA100FFW01 Servo Amplifier
SANYO DENKI 60BA100SFW05 Servo Amplifier
SANYO DENKI 60BA150SFW03 Servo Amplifier.
SANYO DENKI Tachogenerator For 20BM120MXP Motor
you can reach them by emailing sales@ics-repair.com
thanks Jonne, Do you have pinout for axis servo?
Some progress... I have really hads full of job, so this bulding is pretty slow... Also nasty accident happened and turret frame broke in to two pieces , more next post what happened and how yu can avoid my mistake!
But what so far have happened is all axes running fine, tool change works, spindle orientation and rigid tapping works, everything works! Only paint, some fine tuning and clean up and it is ready!
Original spindle motor wasn't that easy, because I realized after measuring and scoping that spindle motor's (HAL) phase detection is 15V or something like that... Delta C2000 VFD can drive PM motors in sensorless or sensor mode, but that first one was way too difficult to get work properly, I'm not sure is it even possible. So I made quickly board with optos which drop voltage to TTL level which is Delta can read.15VDC for spindle motor sensor is got from original Nemic-Lambda PS, but I'll use 7815 regulator chip to get it from 24VDC for that in future. Anyways, after couple hours tuning I got spindle run nice.
Normal running is commanded from LNC +/-10V and when is need to orient spindle or use rigid tapping, LNC and Delta VFD switches to A/B pulsing (position) mode. This happens simply by LNC's PLC, which pull up certain C-bit which indicates to CNC to change pulsing/position mode for spindle and one output which tell VFD to switch to position mode.
Here's some (old) random pics and videos!
Cabinet couple months ago (it looks little bit messy at this point...)
Servo adapters:
Servos mounted, new cables & some paint job:
Getting color:
Latest pic:
Video of first run, couple months ago. Squeezing sound of comes from Z servo motor which wasn't tuned when I made this video. Also spindle brake resistor is not mounted so spindle stops very slow...
Last edited by Jonne; 11-08-2014 at 09:22 AM.
Awsome retrofit. Thanks for posting it.
Regards,
Mark
Jonne, you have done an great job on your retrofit, I am jumping back into mine this week. I noticed you said you broke your toolchanger. I just happened buy two complete tool changer assemblies that I came accross at a local auction. I got a pretty good deal on them If you need one let me know and we can figure out something.
Just let me know, I got alot of other spare parts like ballscrews and other items for these machines.
Thanks! I'll keep this in mind. I bought just one more Brother, this is little older TC-221. I'm not sure would that machine need some mechanical attention... However I'm not sure do I have enough inspiration to make another Brother, maybe I give it away (...because I just bought flawless Maho MH600E which is one of best vertical machining centers ever. I mean EVER ...topic of modernizating of Maho comes later!)
But this current Brother have no need for tool changer parts, I made my own
...and by the way, I didn't use CAM, just controller's graphical "handy cycles"!
Ps. What happened my machine can be seen below. Why this happened and how this nasty crash can be avoid for good, I'll tell it next post (soon as I get some time from my work...)
More pics and video of progress... More coming later (when I beat winter flu )
I am looking for one of these machine to retrofit if anyone has one PM me
Hello toghter
Your work looks amazing.
I have a TC-225 in good condition and with not many worktime.
Now im looking for a little help to get a new controller on it (with some G-Code).
Im really cheap so is it posible to use again the motors and controller boards?
Or does a new controller also need new motors and resolvers?
Maybe someone can do the work or some help for money?
Greetings from Swiss
Philippe
Hi Philippe!
Oh, I have forgot this topic totally... A couple customers in Europe are modernizing TC-22x with LNC controller, so you can send PM if you need help. But I'm very busy, I can't promise very fast service at he moment.
By the way, here's some last photos of the machine: