Tree Journeyman 320 B Retrofit

[will gilmore]

Tree Journeyman 320 B ready for retrofit.











This site (CNC Mill CPU Update) has similar mill, same drives / motors and claims motor specs are 12.5 amps 86 volts MAX. Can anyone confirm by looking at the pictures?



I've put together a Mach3/Gecko/Keling steppers for a lathe. (http://www.cnczone.com/forums/vertic...ate_lathe.html)

I was set on using Mach3/Gecko 320/existing servos for this project but then I started reading about EMC2 and it seems powerful plus the open source aspect appeals to me. Reading about EMC2 led me to discover that people are bringing encoder feedback into the computer rather than just to the drive. Here are the options I'm considering:
1. Mach3/Gecko 320/Existing servos (may need new slightly lower voltage PS)
2. EMC2/Gecko 320/Existing servos
3. EMC2/Gecko 320/Pico sys Gecko interface (Pico Systems Gecko Interface) which would allow encoder info to be brought into computer/Existing servos.
4. EMC2/Pico PWM servo amps/Existing servos. This would allow full closed loop control by the computer.

I don't know much about option 4 but having the computer fully aware of the machine position (or at least motor position) intrigues me.

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[Al_The_Man]

This site has similar mill, same drives / motors and claims motor specs are 12.5 amps 86 volts MAX. Can anyone confirm by looking at the pictures?
.

Well if based on 2500rpm max for the motors, that would = ~86VDC, but your power supply can be easily be +10% if you wanted to get rated rpm.
You should still have the drive supply in the machine you can use?

I was set on using Mach3/Gecko 320/existing servos for this project but then I started reading about EMC2 and it seems powerful plus the open source aspect appeals to me. Reading about EMC2 led me to discover that people are bringing encoder feedback into the computer rather than just to the drive. Here are the options I'm considering:
4. EMC2/Pico PWM servo amps/Existing servos. This would allow full closed loop control by the computer.
I don't know much about option 4 but having the computer fully aware of the machine position (or at least motor position) intrigues me.

If you want true closed loop have you looked at Dynomotion, if you get the Kanalog option, you could reuse your existing drives if they are still OK.
Al.
I looked at the link on the other machine, and if they are the same then you don't have a DC power supply as they are 3ph drives.
But with Kanalog you could use non intelligent drives such as Advanced Motion. No tach required and the encoder goes back to the controller.

[will gilmore]

Well if based on 2500rpm max for the motors, that would = ~86VDC, but your power supply can be easily be +10% if you wanted to get rated rpm.
You should still have the drive supply in the machine you can use?


If you want true closed loop have you looked at Dynomotion, if you get the Kanalog option, you could reuse your existing drives if they are still OK.
Al.
I looked at the link on the other machine, and if they are the same then you don't have a DC power supply as they are 3ph drives.
But with Kanalog you could use non intelligent drives such as Advanced Motion. No tach required and the encoder goes back to the controller.

Thanks for your input.

Is 2500 rpm and industry standard or did you deduce that from the pictures some how?

I'll look into Dynomotion.

I think you are right about the 3ph drives. There are a couple big transformers in the cabinet but I guess they aren't for servo power.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that the mill was sold to me as being electrically inoperative.

[will gilmore]

Encoder

[Al_The_Man]

Is 2500 rpm and industry standard or did you deduce that from the pictures some how?
I think you are right about the 3ph drives. There are a couple big transformers in the cabinet but I guess they aren't for servo power.
.

The motors did not show max rpm but motors of that era topped out around 2500-3000rpm and at 34.2v/1krev would give approx. 86vdc.
If three phase SCR 1/2wave drives, they would have had a 208-220v 3ph star connected transformer to drive them, and maybe one for the spindle, if it is DC?
The encoders are older DRC and are 500p/rev differential.
Al.

[will gilmore]

The motors did not show max rpm but motors of that era topped out around 2500-3000rpm and at 34.2v/1krev would give approx. 86vdc.
If three phase SCR 1/2wave drives, they would have had a 208-220v 3ph star connected transformer to drive them, and maybe one for the spindle, if it is DC?
The encoders are older DRC and are 500p/rev differential.
Al.

You are right again.

[Al_The_Man]

That is a 1ph transformer with a dual voltage primary, should make a good servo P.S.?
Al.

[will gilmore]

oops wrong transformer picture.

here is one that looks like it does delta to wye.

The other transformer is 1kva. Too small for the three motors?

[Al_The_Man]

Probably the bare minimum you would want to go is 1.5Kva, 2kva on the safe side.
Al.

[will gilmore]

I think I'm set on:
Existing servo motors 86V 12.5A
Existing encoders (if they work) 5V 500p/rev
Power supply 1.5kW unless I can find 2kW Antek - PS-15N77

Options:

#1 Pico systems:
EMC2
Universal PWM Servo Controller (4 axis) $250 Pico Systems Universal PWM Servo Controller
PWM Servo Amp $125 x 3 Pico Systems PWM Servo Amplifier
Parallel port ?
Spindle Digital to Analog (DAC) speed control $50

#2 Mesa: Mesa Electronics
EMC2
5i25 PCI card $89
7i76 Step/dir daughtercard 5 axis step/dir + i/o + spindle control $119
Gecko 320 $115 x 3

#3 Mesa:
EMC2
same as above but with 7i77 analog servo interface instead of step/dir
analog drives???


#4 Dynomotion: Dynomotion | Motion Control Boards
Dynomotion software: KMotionCNC
KFLOP $250 USB
SnapAmp1000 $400 4 brushed servos, 80V, 8A cont., 15A peak + 14 i/o
Kanalog $250 a bunch of i/o
I'm a little wary of the software because I don't know anything about it.

I like the idea of the Mesa 5i25 being a purpose built PCI card rather than a repurposed printer port.

I'd really like peoples comments on EMC vs Dynomotion and also general comments and guidance. Thank you.

[samco]

I have looked at the 5i25 and it looks pretty darn cool. Look what you get for about $200. That puts all the configuration in one place (emc2). You can even use emc's integrated ladder logic and the extra i/o as ladder i/o. (I still say it would be a good learning experience for you got go closed loop servos - option 3 - you can get amc drives off of ebay in those ranges pretty cheap) The old control had closed loop control - why go backwards

(my build uses 2 5i20 boards with 10 analog axis (1 7i33 and 7i48)) I needed a lot of i/o (96 i/0 when all was said and done and I think I have pretty much used it all)

Well - or option 1 - pico systems have been used a lot on larger industrial machines also.. I just have no experience with them. I know the owner and he is nice.

sam

I think I'm set on:
Existing servo motors 86V 12.5A
Existing encoders (if they work) 5V 500p/rev
Power supply 1.5kW unless I can find 2kW Antek - PS-15N77

Options:

#1 Pico systems:
EMC2
Universal PWM Servo Controller (4 axis) $250 Pico Systems Universal PWM Servo Controller
PWM Servo Amp $125 x 3 Pico Systems PWM Servo Amplifier
Parallel port ?
Spindle Digital to Analog (DAC) speed control $50

#2 Mesa: Mesa Electronics
EMC2
5i25 PCI card $89
7i76 Step/dir daughtercard 5 axis step/dir + i/o + spindle control $119
Gecko 320 $115 x 3

#3 Mesa:
EMC2
same as above but with 7i77 analog servo interface instead of step/dir
analog drives???


#4 Dynomotion: Dynomotion | Motion Control Boards
Dynomotion software: KMotionCNC
KFLOP $250 USB
SnapAmp1000 $400 4 brushed servos, 80V, 8A cont., 15A peak + 14 i/o
Kanalog $250 a bunch of i/o
I'm a little wary of the software because I don't know anything about it.

I like the idea of the Mesa 5i25 being a purpose built PCI card rather than a repurposed printer port.

I'd really like peoples comments on EMC vs Dynomotion and also general comments and guidance. Thank you.

[will gilmore]

samco-

Thanks for the input. I'll look into AMC drives.

Are you bringing encoder data to EMC? With the Mesa/Gecko option I dont think that is possible without adding something like this :Pico Systems Gecko Interface which is another $100.

[will gilmore]

I started digging into the manual and I'm very thankful to have it.

[will gilmore]

you can get amc drives off of ebay in those ranges pretty cheap

I browsed around on ebay for AMC drives and didn't find anything that looked appropriate plus a lot of drives are being sold as is which scares me.

Jon from Pico emailed me and confirmed that his PWM controller and drives would work. I'm leaning that way although I really like the idea of the Mesa PCI cards because they are designed for I/O applications and they offer more than the 16in/8out of the Pico PWM controller. I can go with the Pico controller and later on add a Mesa 5i20 or 5i25 in a second PCI slot for more I/O right?

[will gilmore]

I have some things sorted out and a lot of remaining questions. I think I'm set on the Pico although I'm still trying to figure out I/O. Questions are in bold.

Computer: HP small form, 3GHz, 2GB RAM
Graphics card: ATI FireMV 2250, no drivers, just plug and go
OS: Linux 10.04 (Lucid)
CNC software: EMC2 v2.4.3 (I think)
Wireless usb: Linksys wusb54gc, no drivers, just plug and go
Parallel port card: which card for Linux / EMC2 / Pico?
I've been running the EMC2 latency test all day and I have max jitter of servo: 22360ns and base: 27231ns. Is this ok?

"Breakout board": Pico Universal PWM servo control
Servo driver: Pico PWM
Encoders: Existing is 500ppr differential mounted on the screws. Jon from Pico says this is a little low but I'm hesitant to replace them because the Y encoder is a little hard to access. If I were to buy new encoders what should I get?
Pico USC takes single ended encoder wiring. Is there a way to convert differential to single at the board? or should I just drop A- and B-?
Spindle speed gear sensor. There is a two wire proximity gear tooth sensor on the spindle. It's not marked and there isn't anything in the wiring diagrams to indicate how it works. I assume +VDC goes in one wire and the signal comes back on the other wire. Is there a standard voltage / configuration?
I/O - Pico USC has 16 inputs / 8 SSR outputs
Inputs: 3 home switches (1 or 4 inputs), manual pulse generator (2 or 4 inputs), axis select (4 inputs), feed / speed overrides (1 input each to select then use MPG), feed hold (1 input), cycle start (1 input), estop chain incl limits (1 input), spindle speed sensor (1 input). That is 13 or 18 inputs. Anything I'm not thinking about?

1.5KVA is the biggest power supply I can find. Should I build my own? Can I use two 1KVA power supplies? If so, would I simply connect the DC outputs of the two power supplies? Should I get a 1.5KVA PS now and see how it goes? I'm not planning on adding a 4th axis right away.

Thanks.

[Al_The_Man]

Encoders: Existing is 500ppr differential mounted on the screws. Jon from Pico says this is a little low but I'm hesitant to replace them because the Y encoder is a little hard to access. If I were to buy new encoders what should I get?
Pico USC takes single ended encoder wiring. Is there a way to convert differential to single at the board? or should I just drop A- and B-?
.

US digital or Koyo are good.
I dont know why the builder of DIY board insist on single ended encoder inputs, you can use A & B usually.

Spindle speed gear sensor. There is a two wire proximity gear tooth sensor on the spindle. It's not marked and there isn't anything in the wiring diagrams to indicate how it works. I assume +VDC goes in one wire and the signal comes back on the other wire. Is there a standard voltage / configuration?
.

Generally 2 wire proximities are sink or source, as long as you observe polarity, either can be the input to an opto etc.

1.5KVA is the biggest power supply I can find. Should I build my own? Can I use two 1KVA power supplies? If so, would I simply connect the DC outputs of the two power supplies? Should I get a 1.5KVA PS now and see how it goes? I'm not planning on adding a 4th axis right away.

I think you may get away with 1.5Kva.
Al.

[will gilmore]

Thanks Al. I realized there is a diagram of the speed control circuit. Sensor is all the way to the left. It looks like it says +9V at [G,5.5]. Comments?



Also, I think I need more than 16 inputs:

1 all homes in parallel
2 MPG A
3 MPG B
4 axis select x
5 axis select y
6 axis select z
7 axis select a
8 feed override select (use MPG to set feed)
9 speed override select (use MPG to set speed)
10 feed hold
11 cycle start
12 jog select .0001
13 jog select .001
14 jog select .01 or continous
15 spindle speed sensor
16 estop chain (limits etc)
17 probe / tool setter?

[Al_The_Man]

I missed this post, yes the 9.1 zener drops the 24vdc for the proximity sensor, the circuit uses the popular LM2917 frequency to voltage convertor.
Al.

[will gilmore]

Thanks Al. I wondering if I should try to reuse the speed sensor and control board. I'll leave it alone until I get the axes running.



Any one know where I can buy these connectors? It would be handy to use them to break out the wires coming from each axis rather than cutting these up. They are Amphenol which I looked up but they make 1000s of different connectors.

[erikjgreen]

samco-

Thanks for the input. I'll look into AMC drives.

Are you bringing encoder data to EMC? With the Mesa/Gecko option I dont think that is possible without adding something like this :Pico Systems Gecko Interface which is another $100.

The Mesa boards accept encoder input, either single ended or differential, quite well. No need for a separate board. I recommend the Mesa 5i20+7I33+7I37 combo, used by many folks here. The 5i20 can be configured as a step generator or for analog 10v control. The 7i33 has four encoder inputs (and four 10v outputs). The 7I37 has 16 inputs and eight outputs for all your I/O needs. Some people have even skipped the add-on boards entirely and built breakout boards for the 5i20.

For my own set-up (in progress) I'm bringing the encoder inputs into EMC2 via the 7I33 and leaving the tachs connected to my existing Servo Dynamics analog amps, which take 10v input. I'm using the 7i37 for limit switches and control of things like my coolant pump, and I have a slot free on the 5i20 if I need to add more I/O or axes.

Erik

Erik