New Grizzly Mills

[handlewanker]

Hmmmm….Ryobi with a Lithium battery......I'll do some searching for that goody.....the NMH one is an 18volt type

On the topic of the mill, I baulked at the prospect of going to a manual mill retrofit when I took the bait and wanted to get into CNC.

I'm an oldie from the 50's and manual stuff is/was all I know.....I wanted to get into CNC for the challenge so I decided after a long forum posting on the Skyfire thread to get the SVM-0 production model after the prototype was established (UTUBE) and with the various options that I was lucky to get.

A couple of options became available after twisting Defeng Ren's arm and I got a mill with a lot more than just the basic model.....long story if you like to be bored.

One thing that tipped the balance in my favour and that was the spindle mod to an ISO20 taper for interchangeable tooling and a power drawbar.....the complete enclosure was also the cream on the top so to say.

It came ready to run straight out of the box although I had trouble initially when I tried to run it with a 64 bit computer instead of a 32 bit one but the guys at Skyfire .com bent over backwards to get it up and running.....can't say enough about the experience when I wrote my first bits of G code and got it running.

I would think that the end justifies the means and overkill is just an expensive way of getting to where you want to go.

If a ROI is not an issue then having a new state of the art machine that you know is great makes working with it so much more fun......I love good tools and the cost sometimes is not a deciding factor...….having been in close contact for 60 years or so with industrial machinery does make you expect anything that moves to be just as good.
Ian.

[magudaman]

Don't for get about the new Grizzly G0875: https://www.grizzly.com/products/Gri...CNC-Mill/G0875

$16500

For a hobbyist like me even this is more than I want to spend but I feel like it is decent value compared to the Tormach 1100m when similarly equipped. The grizzly is running servo based actuators, heavier BT30 spindle, and 300in/min rapids. Such a slow spindle on the Grizzly is a major downside. I am really looking for something under $10K and don't plan on making any money with it but this had me reading about those Siemens controllers last night in bed. I will be keeping my eyes pealed for some reviews to come down the line and maybe that site wide 10% coupon ;-)

[CL_MotoTech]

The slow spindle is actually why I sort of overlooked it. Looks great otherwise. BT30 spindle is a win all around, and I would assume the Siemens can handle new spindle motors, an upgrade can't be too far fetched. If it wasn't for terrible column on the G0704 i'd be looking at a BT30 conversion for it. I am happy with my horsepower and work envelope (though extra would of course be better).

handlewanker, I missed the 12v remark. Why would you want a 12v drill?

[metalmayhem]

I do think the entry level Haas machine is more attractive, at least on paper, assuming $30k is in the budget. What I don't necessarily care for is the additional costs associated with a Haas machine. In a shop I worked in, we had a used Haas VF2 that we paid $35k for. What a steal! Then it took $10k of Haas servicing to even get it going. Then an unfortunate spindle crash cost us another $3k.



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the additional set up fees are a pita I can agree , 10k seems a bit steep for a few hours work . In regard to the spindle crash , thats the cost of a bad crash unfortunately . I'd be concerned with how much it would cost to replace the grizzly spindle , time involved in getting the new one and if it'll fit properly into place . 10yrs from now the likelyhood of getting a replacement would be slim to none . The last company I worked at had a spindle seize up on a mini , cost of parts and labor was around $3500 , not bad considering it was at least 10 yrs old and has run a lot of parts .

I've worked on most big brand machines in numerous shops over the years so I have a lot of experience with the variety . I myself have Chinese mills 3 tormachs , novakon and 1/2 dozen retrofit benchtops , simply for dollar value . They get the job done and when the time comes I will have no problem loading them into into a scrap bin , and replace them with others . In what I said previously , I'm not looking to give the impression that I am not familiar with Chinese machines or that I am against them .

If you look at alibaba you'll see similar machines with ct40 spindles and better specs than the grizzly . It would mean having to broker in the machine but after tariff etc you'd probably match their price with a beefier machine with similar controls .
Personally in that price range I'd rather buy a couple or a few more tormachs , or even a used super mini . The likelihood of buying a used mill with all the extra options is pretty high , and they are reliable machines

[metalmayhem]

Mostly, a machine can be judged quite easily by the build quality.....judging a book by the cover is one way but a person with an inkling of mechanical ability would soon be aware of shortcomings.

It's all a matter of longevity if all things are equal.....the car industry is totally up there on that aspect although no two cars are the same so comparison is then a matter of reliability.

How do you judge a good machine from one that will eventually fail?...……..by the experiences of those that bought them, but not everyone puts a machine to the maximum test, first you have to buy one if you can't fault it in any other way.

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When a cnc is enclosed in sheet metal it's tough to see down to the core .

The quality of the mill doesn't necessarily depend on how long it lasts . It's how well it's going to cut . Even haas can have their short comings on finish quality and there are old discussions on these forums about that .
When you start throwing hard steels into the equation , the desire to use insert tooling , and taking heavy cuts is where the difference in quality shines , or fails .
I've seen machines nearly bounce off the ground trying to run the same program another mill run fairly smoothly

[CL_MotoTech]

the additional set up fees are a pita I can agree , 10k seems a bit steep for a few hours work . In regard to the spindle crash , thats the cost of a bad crash unfortunately . I'd be concerned with how much it would cost to replace the grizzly spindle , time involved in getting the new one and if it'll fit properly into place . 10yrs from now the likelyhood of getting a replacement would be slim to none . The last company I worked at had a spindle seize up on a mini , cost of parts and labor was around $3500 , not bad considering it was at least 10 yrs old and has run a lot of parts .

I've worked on most big brand machines in numerous shops over the years so I have a lot of experience with the variety . I myself have Chinese mills 3 tormachs , novakon and 1/2 dozen retrofit benchtops , simply for dollar value . They get the job done and when the time comes I will have no problem loading them into into a scrap bin , and replace them with others . In what I said previously , I'm not looking to give the impression that I am not familiar with Chinese machines or that I am against them .

If you look at alibaba you'll see similar machines with ct40 spindles and better specs than the grizzly . It would mean having to broker in the machine but after tariff etc you'd probably match their price with a beefier machine with similar controls .
Personally in that price range I'd rather buy a couple or a few more tormachs , or even a used super mini . The likelihood of buying a used mill with all the extra options is pretty high , and they are reliable machines

With my G0704 I've ordered parts and had them arrive next day. Of course, I've also had them take 5 days. And who knows with these new machines what that's going to be like. I certainly would rather deal with Grizzly than a no name on Alibaba, but I did have a search there and found some enticing machines for the price. These size machines certainly come with their issues. They aren't really big enough to do everything you might need, but they do just enough to get yourself into trouble. Of course for somebody like me with only 500 square feet of shop space, I don't have a lot of choice, especially if I want to bring a car or motorcycle in for service. And of course 3 phase is an issue in that I don't have it.

I forget why the startup on the VF2 was so expensive, it's been like 8 years since that happened. Suffice it to say, I do remember it being a ***** of a process.

[handlewanker]

The slow spindle is actually why I sort of overlooked it. Looks great otherwise. BT30 spindle is a win all around, and I would assume the Siemens can handle new spindle motors, an upgrade can't be too far fetched. If it wasn't for terrible column on the G0704 i'd be looking at a BT30 conversion for it. I am happy with my horsepower and work envelope (though extra would of course be better).

handlewanker, I missed the 12v remark. Why would you want a 12v drill?

Hi, I bought the 12 volt drill as it's Lithium to replace the Ryobi that kept dying after charging and 2 days just sitting on the bench idle.

With the Lithium model I can go into the shop and know the drill(s) is good to go at any time.

It's small and compact and gets the job done for screw driving and drilling......but...…..when I did some tile adhesive mixing with one of those long metal stirrers it kept cutting out due to overload as the adhesive is quite thick once mixed and the drill doesn't like a continuous load, also the chuck is only 10mm.....it came with two batteries and a 3 year warranty.

So I bought the 18 volt one with the 13mm chuck to do the heavy mixing work, it also came with 2 batteries and a 3 year warranty..........and it also has a hammer capacity for masonry drilling.

That was 6 months ago and the charge is still good.

One thing I like and that is the battery packs on the Lithium stuff are much slimmer and lighter than the NMH one.
Ian.

[CL_MotoTech]

Oh yeah, lithium is all around better.

[metalmayhem]

sounds like you got a dud drill . I bought a ryobi with the lithium and I can't believe that it is still strong after all these years(12-15) . by the time I kill one battery the other is fully charged and thats when I'm going hard on it , but one battery has lost a bit of it's oomph

CL_MotoTech , I don't know what your intentions are for what you want to machine but would any of the the tormachs not suit your needs ? Space is also my issue , so I purchased 3 pcnc440's . They are well suited to the smaller parts that I machine , and they are capable of running up to a 2" face mill . my next purchase will be some 770's . I look at it it the sense of what I can buy within that 30k range , because that was the exact budget i set for myself when I was looking to expand and add some more mills . I could have bought a used haas and I heavily considered it , except it wouldn't keep up to production vs 2-3 running machines . I'd never physically seen a tormach before hand but they've been around for a long time , the models don't change every year , and the forums are a good example of how much support there is
Funny thing is that pathpilot is so good that on lighter cuts and high speed surfacing - it'll out do a mini that doesn't have the high speed option . I say lighter cuts because the spindle power obviously isn't the same

[CL_MotoTech]

I was looking at used Mini Mills this morning, looks like $20k can get one.

I am not totally sure what my needs are yet. I actually have a Novakon NM145 sitting in my shop that I should put together. It needs some love including a spindle and head.

My use of the G0704 for learning and then later making money has been gone very well for me. The reality is that a larger machine is in my future. As of now I am mostly window shopping, the plan would be to purchase in the next 12 to 36 months.

I do think I want something with BT30, a tool changer would be fantastic, a decent size work envelope would be good. About the largest part I can envision making would be something like a car up right, maybe 12" by 10" by 5", but more space is always better. I don't need 1000 ipm rapids, but 400 would be good. At least 6k on the spindle, I have 8k now in my G0704. Bigger cuts would be great, but I'm not in mass production so it's not super critical.

When I look at a Tormach to get these features it's going to end with the 1100MX at $25k new. That seems silly to me. The Novakons look better in that sense, but no BT30 and I'd have to build an enclosure. That's something I can do, but do I really want to? For a little more money that puts a Mini Mill back in range. A phase converter isn't even all that expensive either.

Right now my enclosure is 62" wide, 33" deep. All options are going to take up more space, but how much? I certainly don't want something that I can't put against a wall, that's for sure.


So lots to think about...

[metalmayhem]

I didn't realize the mx was going to be that high . the 1100m with stand and tool changer is $17000 which isn't to bad . I've opted out of any options on all my mills and I hand bomb all my tools . It's more work but , I'd be working a lot harder if I had to go back to working for someone else . I look at it in the case that all the options nearly add up to another machine lol . The tormach tool changer looks to be well designed from what I've seen online and i may eventually add them , I wouldn't even consider the novakon changer .
I just got a notice that tormach is raising their prices , I'm expecting it to be equal to whatever tariff is on the mills unfortunately . I'm sure everyone else selling Chinese machinery will follow

[CL_MotoTech]

The tariffs are sucking, I haven't been able to compete overseas since.

Anyways... It will be interesting to see what happens with competitors to the Tormach as their prices continue to climb. Granted they will have to as well, but as they cash in on the brand identity while the spec sheet on their machines stagnates you'd have to think some others might find an angle into their market.

[metalmayhem]

The problem with the tariffs is that the prices of everything won't go down once they are lifted . Companies will pocket the extra cash and us peasants will continue to get less for our dollar . It'll be interesting to see what the price increase is on the tormach . 6 months ago I was quoted on my mills 2 weeks before the last price increase , which was a $1000 jump . I got lucky on timing and saved 3 grand .
As far as competition goes , it would be nice to see but someone will have to come in like a storm to pose a threat within that range of machinery . Novakon has been around for long enough now , and I'm sure they hardly made a dent into tormach . I'm actually starting to question the longevity of that company

[CL_MotoTech]

Novakon needs to make the jump to UCCNC or Acorn. I think Ray had some issue with the Acorn a while back, so UCCNC it is. That would go a long way towards selling his machines. I've considered the larger one many times, but the lack of full enclosure sort of turns me off. My G0704 has been a big project, I would like my next machine to work out of the box. Since I work 99% in aluminum flood coolant is always needed.

I have UCCNC but always end up on Mach 3 just because I like the way the Mach Standard Mill screenset handles probing and tool length offset. It's super fast and easy to work with. In the long run I'd probably be better off with UCCNC just because it would screw up less. Tormach certainly did the right thing when they went with Linux and then customized. If you are still Mach 3 based (mach 4 is just as bad IMO although I haven't tried version 2), then you aren't really worth a look.

[metalmayhem]

they should go to linuxcnc . I had uccnc for a bit on the torus but crossed it over to pathpilot and the difference was incredible

[CL_MotoTech]

I really enjoy using windows for my controller, mostly because I can CAD/CAM right at the controller. Hence I lean towards windows based controllers, but I don't have any linux controller experience. I do know I much prefer MacOSX over Windows, which is unix based, and that benefits from basically the same things that Linux systems benefit from. So, it's probably a good system.

What are the main benefits of PP over UCCNC?

[metalmayhem]

speed and smoothness . uccnc was better than mach in that sense but there were things about it I didn't like . I've always dedicated my control pc's to only run the control software . I've never even had them on wifi till recently with pathpilot which can be linked to dropbox

[CL_MotoTech]

I run CAD/CAM while I run Mach or UCCNC, and I keep all my gcode on a server, one that I can access from inside my network and externally. Pretty often I design a part and run the CAM when I'm not even home, get home to my shop and load up the code, and hit the start button. Being able to do that makes things so much easier. I will adjust a model or CAM in the shop on the controller when I realize a need to. I keep my software and backups on the same server. Keeps everything nice and centralized.

With dedicated control hardware I've not had an issue. I know with serial port stuff there were tons of issues. I play music using the controller PC, check my email, print invoices, pretty much use it like a work station.

[metalmayhem]

I like having dropbox as a pathpilot addon . When it came to widows I used stripped down versions to minimize anything running in the background . I have an array of computers for anything else i want to do and a pile of usb sticks lol . Any time I want to design something then i just do it on other computers while the machines run without any possible interference