DIY CNC Mill - Playing around with the thought


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    Default DIY CNC Mill - Playing around with the thought

    Hi everyone!

    This is my first post, but I've been lurking the forum every now and then for a while.

    I am playing around with the thought of building a VMC from scratch. I have all the tools and machinery available; CNC-mills and lathes, welding tables, materials etc. I'm employed as a CNC-operator (apprentice at the moment).

    Before anyone ask why I would like to build my own if I already have everything available, the answer is simply I would like to build one to fit besides my computer desk at home. I'm not aiming for a small 200x300x100mm CNC mill - if I'm doing this I'm going all in. I am not looking to carve things in wood or plastics. I want a VMC being strong enough to cut stainless and other hard steels. I'm probably going to work a lot with aluminium - but I know I will regret not making it strong enough for harder metals.

    Before anyone points it out, I would like to say that I have limited knowledge about the need for torque performing these tasks - which is why I am opening a thread. My hope is that some of you wise souls in here can shed some light on some aspects for me. Pardon me if I seem a bit to ambitious, and if it seems like I don't know what I'm doing. I'm still learning CNC, and I'm a talented CAD-designer. Everything is still conceptual at the moment, so I don't have any CAD drawings yet. Right now I'm just collecting information!

    I'm picturing a budget of around 10 - 15 000 USD, with investments made over time. I am not rich, but I make an okay living.

    I'm thinking I would weld the frame in 100x100x5mm squared steel tubing, with crossovers for stability. To increase the work-area, I want to get the spindle doing the moving, while the table stands still. I know most CNC-mills have the spindle moving only in Z-axis to increase spindle stability - but I have some ideas.

    I am thinking of using 4 HGW65 linear rails for each axis to increase stability - combined with some heavy duty ball-screws with double nuts to keep backlash to an absolute minimum. If I make it so that I can adjust the pressure on the rails, I can adjust it until it's dead-tight.

    Regarding the axis control I started thinking about steppers, but after what I've understood these are inferior to servos. I've been looking around at some servos at eBay that I suspect should do the trick. With the little knowledge I have I see that it's capable of 15NM, which seems stronger than most servos for CNC online. I've understood that most DIY'ers build routers for wood and plastics, so I guess I need something stronger than usual.

    Would this do the trick for something like this?
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/3-8KW-NEMA5...EAAOSwWORbmI2s

    Eventually, would the use of matched speed reducers be sufficient to gain more power? What ratio would you suggest=

    Regarding the spindle, I've contacted a chinese spindle manufacturer, and I think they have what I'm looking for. They can also give me CAD-drawings of the spindle so that I can design the VMC to fit it before I order. I have the following demands for the spindle; water cooled, strong enough to cut steel, high quality bearings (preferably ceramic), automatic tool change, and ready to accept BT-30 tool holders. They've sent me a suggestion to a 7.5 Kw spindle that they say should do the trick. Picture is attached! Thoughts on this?

    By all means guys; if you think I'm a way to ambitious dreamer with his head up his a** - I expect to hear it on a public forum as large as this. I've been using forums for too long to expect anything else. But please, any tips will be taken to consideration with gratitude.

    Thanks for reading!

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    Default Re: DIY CNC Mill - Playing around with the thought

    Quote Originally Posted by DuxEtCapital View Post
    Hi everyone!

    This is my first post, but I've been lurking the forum every now and then for a while.

    I am playing around with the thought of building a VMC from scratch. I have all the tools and machinery available; CNC-mills and lathes, welding tables, materials etc. I'm employed as a CNC-operator (apprentice at the moment).

    [Have you got metal-casting equipment set up? All the VMCs I know of are based on heavy iron castings, not weldments.]

    Before anyone ask why I would like to build my own if I already have everything available, the answer is simply I would like to build one to fit besides my computer desk at home. I'm not aiming for a small 200x300x100mm CNC mill - if I'm doing this I'm going all in. I am not looking to carve things in wood or plastics. I want a VMC being strong enough to cut stainless and other hard steels. I'm probably going to work a lot with aluminium - but I know I will regret not making it strong enough for harder metals.

    Before anyone points it out, I would like to say that I have limited knowledge about the need for torque performing these tasks - which is why I am opening a thread. My hope is that some of you wise souls in here can shed some light on some aspects for me. Pardon me if I seem a bit to ambitious, and if it seems like I don't know what I'm doing. I'm still learning CNC, and I'm a talented CAD-designer. Everything is still conceptual at the moment, so I don't have any CAD drawings yet. Right now I'm just collecting information!

    [Torque is important, particularly low-speed torque for the spindle, but the main issue is rigidity. Most of us here are building routers of one sort or another, which at the top end can handle aluminum. But something that can cut stainless and other hard metals effectively is another thing entirely,]

    I'm picturing a budget of around 10 - 15 000 USD, with investments made over time. I am not rich, but I make an okay living.

    I'm thinking I would weld the frame in 100x100x5mm squared steel tubing, with crossovers for stability.

    To increase the work-area, I want to get the spindle doing the moving, while the table stands still. I know most CNC-mills have the spindle moving only in Z-axis to increase spindle stability - but I have some ideas.

    [That's less rigid than a fixed-spindle moving-table design. Mills are all done the other way for a reason.]

    I am thinking of using 4 HGW65 linear rails for each axis to increase stability - combined with some heavy duty ball-screws with double nuts to keep backlash to an absolute minimum. If I make it so that I can adjust the pressure on the rails, I can adjust it until it's dead-tight.

    [I'm afraid you'll find that keeping all those rails absolutely aligned with one another is a total nightmare. If they're just a little off in any direction the whole thing will bind up. There's no way those welded tubes are going to be flat, rigid or stable enough for all those rails to mount orthogonally. And doubling up the nuts on a ball screw and loading them together makes it harder for the motors to turn them. "Dead tight" might as well just be dead. Less resistance to motion is the main reason you use ball screws in the first place. It's better to use a single nut and oversize balls.]

    Regarding the axis control I started thinking about steppers, but after what I've understood these are inferior to servos. I've been looking around at some servos at eBay that I suspect should do the trick. With the little knowledge I have I see that it's capable of 15NM, which seems stronger than most servos for CNC online. I've understood that most DIY'ers build routers for wood and plastics, so I guess I need something stronger than usual.

    Would this do the trick for something like this?
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/3-8KW-NEMA5...EAAOSwWORbmI2s

    [Servos would probably be better than steppers for a machine like you describe, although I don't know anything about those particular ones. You're in Australia?]

    Eventually, would the use of matched speed reducers be sufficient to gain more power? What ratio would you suggest=

    [Servos run a lot faster than steppers, so speed reducers are a good idea to get into their sweet spot. But you'd need to find ones that don't introduce backlash.]

    Regarding the spindle, I've contacted a chinese spindle manufacturer, and I think they have what I'm looking for. They can also give me CAD-drawings of the spindle so that I can design the VMC to fit it before I order. I have the following demands for the spindle; water cooled, strong enough to cut steel, high quality bearings (preferably ceramic), automatic tool change, and ready to accept BT-30 tool holders. They've sent me a suggestion to a 7.5 Kw spindle that they say should do the trick. Picture is attached! Thoughts on this?

    [I doubt a 36k rpm spindle will have much torque at all at the speeds you'd use for cutting steel, unless you're using very small cutters. It would be OK for wood, though.]

    By all means guys; if you think I'm a way to ambitious dreamer with his head up his a** - I expect to hear it on a public forum as large as this. I've been using forums for too long to expect anything else. But please, any tips will be taken to consideration with gratitude.

    Thanks for reading!
    [It's okay to dream, but try to wake up and pull it out of there before you start spending serious cash. If what you really want is a good working machine as cheap as possible, you'd be better off looking for a good used VMC with a blown or obsolete controller and retrofitting it with something more state-of-the-art. At least in the US, one can often find them pretty cheap from people who basically just want their floor space back for a newer or better one. But if you're mainly interested in proving all the other mill designers in the world wrong by showing how it can be done so much cheaper and easier, go for it, and post a video when you're done of this thing chewing through stainless steel like a hot knife through butter, leaving a surface that looks polished already...]

    [FONT=Verdana]Andrew Werby[/FONT]
    [URL="http://www.computersculpture.com/"]Website[/URL]


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    Default Re: DIY CNC Mill - Playing around with the thought

    I think most of us have been here and shared this dream. A few have gone on to spend bulk dollars for the great feeling of a DIY well done leaving them with less machine for more bucks than a 2nd hand rebuild.

    I want to home in on one thing, though, and that's the ergonomics of a machine inside the domicile: you lost me at "to sit beside my computer at home". Presumably in a study or your bedroom? I have all my machines in the shed except for the 3D printer which does live in the same room as my computer in the house and even that is too noisy most of the time to have running and still be able to concentrate on a job at the computer. Even with a full enclosure, the printer generates a lot of mess on the floor and leaves dodgy fumes in the air. A mill cutting stainless? Forget it, the noise will kill you and if anyone else lives in the house they'll kill you too. That's just the machine, then add the noise of the shop air you invariably need to run them effectively (if not for the collet holder then at least for clearing chips etc).

    Then move onto the mess these things make, even with an enclosure you'll have chips and coolant all over the place. Your floor, wall, bench and probably computer too will be stained beyond redemption in short order.

    Then consider the stank from coolant, lubes, hot metal and so on. It's fine, it's better than fine, it's the smell of heaven in the context of a workshop. But in a small room in a house or apartment where you can't leave it behind after a job? You'll learn to hate it in short order.

    There's a spot in my shed where I could put the printer, and I don't, because I can put up with the minor noise and mess issues for the sake of having it close to keep an eye on when it's running. Thinking outside the box, maybe it'd work for you too: forget the CNC and instead have a printer at home for prototyping, then if you get to a form you like and want to do in stainless, chuck the post processor output on a thumbdrive and sneak it through at work when a machine's idle...

    Don't despair - many of us posted something similar to this thread and we all got slammed and, a few months later, most of us were grateful for being shut down early



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    Default Re: DIY CNC Mill - Playing around with the thought

    1. How much power do you have to drive this machine? You're headed in the direction of needing a dedicated 3 phase circuit.

    2. The torque you need depends on how much weight you want to move and how fast you want it to get there. I know many industrial machines might use a 3 kw motor to move an axis at 1500 IPM, but that big of a motor is only needed when that axis has more stacked on top of it. Direct drive, no reductions necessary. Those same machines generally use 32 and 25 mm ballscrews.

    3. Do not use 4 rails. If that much rigidity is needed, move up to 2 rails with rollers.

    4. For mills that don't use a typical XY on table/ Z on column design, look at DMG Mori's designs. A lot of their youtube videos show exploded views of the machine. Brother's pallet changing D&T machine has a static table with XYZ all on the column.

    5. For steel you need torque, not RPM. 12K RPM is a good middle ground for some steel and aluminum jobs. It will be difficult to find a motorized spindle with RPM at 12K.

    6. In my experience, Chinese companies will tell you anything you want to hear.

    7. I agree with dharmic. Either it can fit besides your computer, or it can be a VMC. Clarify your goals, but keep in mind a Tormach 440 can cut stainless. Slowly and not terribly accurately but it will cut it.

    8. 10-15000 USD is definitely doable for a 3 axis mill the size of a RoboDrill or Brother. $1500 for steel tubing/bars, $2000 for DMM servos, $2000 for Chinese rails/ballscrews, $2000 for a Chinese servo spindle and drive, $1000 for a Chinese BT30 spindle, $1000 for metrology equipment to read tenths, $500 for a mini PC for LinuxCNC, $1000 for electrical components, $500 for pneumatic components. As Andrew said, though, it's generally cheaper and easier to buy a used machine.



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    Default Re: DIY CNC Mill - Playing around with the thought

    Half way through building pretty much as you describe, however I would suggest as others have suggested & retrofit an existing machine. they seem to be plentiful for reasonable coin states side.
    Otherwise look for an RF45 clone with a BT30 spindle. Built with closed loop steppers would be a god compromise.
    Careful as costs can get away from you. If you can get away with doing a few foreign orders on your work machines may save some.
    Regards,
    MB
    DIY CNC Mill - Playing around with the thought-img_0643-jpg



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    Default Re: DIY CNC Mill - Playing around with the thought

    Go ahead !

    It will be an interesting and educational and expensive journey.
    There are 3-4 relevant samples of people milling steel with shop built tools. Afaik.
    The wall thicknesses are typically 1/2" or more.

    I am re-finishing (version 5) my big VMC.
    Parts cost alone == 20.000€ in bulk import wholesale costs.
    Total current value of tools+parts == 100.000 €.
    + 17.000+ hours of work.

    Certainly a small VMC can be made for 15.000$ in parts..
    .. if you aim for cheap vs good.

    Good results from rigidity.
    Thicker screws, bigger linears, thicker section size flats.
    Bigger section sizes.

    All modern machine tools embody about 2% load vs capacity.
    So do all good lathes, since forever.
    My VMC with == 1000 kgf force on x,y has 50.000 kgf linears on the z axis.
    35 mm hiwin hgw, and doubled rails on the front. 32 mm screws.



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    Default Re: DIY CNC Mill - Playing around with the thought

    As mentioned above your biggest barrier to getting this in a home is power. If you're looking at having something with enough torque to cut hard materials you will easily exceed the amount of power you can reasonably run off of 220V single phase. Unless you have 3 phase power already run to your home it's going to cost thousand to tens of thousands to get it wired to your house (if its available at all). The 7.5 kW spindle alone would pull 35 amps on 220V 1ph.



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    Default Re: DIY CNC Mill - Playing around with the thought

    First of all , u need to see what precision u need , if u need high precision , u need go epoxy granite , if u dont need that much precision u can go with steel frame.
    Noise is not a problem with a very rigid vmc , it wont sound at all , and if u build it with eg , it will make low noise .
    Beside this u can make an enclosure isolated , and it will be ok , for all sounds that will bother u .
    Don"t listen to people that want get u out of line with ur dream , just do it and leave others with they dreams .
    With that money u can buy an vmc , and retrofit , but is not like u do it , u learn a loot of thinks , if u make the vmc . And u will know all the tricks for building one vmc , but u need tools for this , and help of other machinist with a good vmc , for aligning the rails and ballscrew .



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    Default Re: DIY CNC Mill - Playing around with the thought

    Quote Originally Posted by dharmic View Post
    I think most of us have been here and shared this dream. A few have gone on to spend bulk dollars for the great feeling of a DIY well done leaving them with less machine for more bucks than a 2nd hand rebuild.

    I want to home in on one thing, though, and that's the ergonomics of a machine inside the domicile: you lost me at "to sit beside my computer at home". Presumably in a study or your bedroom? I have all my machines in the shed except for the 3D printer which does live in the same room as my computer in the house and even that is too noisy most of the time to have running and still be able to concentrate on a job at the computer. Even with a full enclosure, the printer generates a lot of mess on the floor and leaves dodgy fumes in the air. A mill cutting stainless? Forget it, the noise will kill you and if anyone else lives in the house they'll kill you too. That's just the machine, then add the noise of the shop air you invariably need to run them effectively (if not for the collet holder then at least for clearing chips etc).

    Then move onto the mess these things make, even with an enclosure you'll have chips and coolant all over the place. Your floor, wall, bench and probably computer too will be stained beyond redemption in short order.

    Then consider the stank from coolant, lubes, hot metal and so on. It's fine, it's better than fine, it's the smell of heaven in the context of a workshop. But in a small room in a house or apartment where you can't leave it behind after a job? You'll learn to hate it in short order.

    There's a spot in my shed where I could put the printer, and I don't, because I can put up with the minor noise and mess issues for the sake of having it close to keep an eye on when it's running. Thinking outside the box, maybe it'd work for you too: forget the CNC and instead have a printer at home for prototyping, then if you get to a form you like and want to do in stainless, chuck the post processor output on a thumbdrive and sneak it through at work when a machine's idle...

    Don't despair - many of us posted something similar to this thread and we all got slammed and, a few months later, most of us were grateful for being shut down early
    Would the smell, chips and fumes be a problem if the VMC has a full enclosure, with constant ventilation blowing everything outside? The chips would hit the walls, and fall down into the shute - and a conveyor belt taking the chips out into a 40L bucket? I mean even at work the chips is rarely a problem unless we use the blow-gun and chips go flying everywhere. I was thinking I could get around this using a fan-tool in the spindle. So that I can make a program to clean the table/workpiece after machining is complete.

    I already have a printer at home which have served me for some time now. I spend enough time at work as it is, and would like to enjoy milling in the comfort of my own home. I totally get what you mean regarding sound though. I though I should completely isolate the enclosure with several layers, as well as isolating the office where it would be placed. This combined with as rigid frame as possible, as well as rubber feet - I hope to minimize it to a level where I will be able to live with it.

    I don't have a garage - or a shed for that matter. :P



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    Default Re: DIY CNC Mill - Playing around with the thought

    Quote Originally Posted by footpetaljones View Post
    1. How much power do you have to drive this machine? You're headed in the direction of needing a dedicated 3 phase circuit.

    2. The torque you need depends on how much weight you want to move and how fast you want it to get there. I know many industrial machines might use a 3 kw motor to move an axis at 1500 IPM, but that big of a motor is only needed when that axis has more stacked on top of it. Direct drive, no reductions necessary. Those same machines generally use 32 and 25 mm ballscrews.

    3. Do not use 4 rails. If that much rigidity is needed, move up to 2 rails with rollers.

    4. For mills that don't use a typical XY on table/ Z on column design, look at DMG Mori's designs. A lot of their youtube videos show exploded views of the machine. Brother's pallet changing D&T machine has a static table with XYZ all on the column.

    5. For steel you need torque, not RPM. 12K RPM is a good middle ground for some steel and aluminum jobs. It will be difficult to find a motorized spindle with RPM at 12K.

    6. In my experience, Chinese companies will tell you anything you want to hear.

    7. I agree with dharmic. Either it can fit besides your computer, or it can be a VMC. Clarify your goals, but keep in mind a Tormach 440 can cut stainless. Slowly and not terribly accurately but it will cut it.

    8. 10-15000 USD is definitely doable for a 3 axis mill the size of a RoboDrill or Brother. $1500 for steel tubing/bars, $2000 for DMM servos, $2000 for Chinese rails/ballscrews, $2000 for a Chinese servo spindle and drive, $1000 for a Chinese BT30 spindle, $1000 for metrology equipment to read tenths, $500 for a mini PC for LinuxCNC, $1000 for electrical components, $500 for pneumatic components. As Andrew said, though, it's generally cheaper and easier to buy a used machine.
    I have 220V. I was thinking I could use multiple power supplies - so that each servo, and the spindle, can get their own. Connected to different ports around the house. That way I can distribute the load, and get around the need for all power through one port. I don't have a 3 phase circuit at home, and getting one in my neighborhood would be next to impossible - or at least exceed the the cost of the VMC by itself. I have electrician friends that I hope could help me find a way to make the multiple power-supply idea work.

    2. I'll have to put some more thought into how fast I would like the machine to move. At the moment I still don't understand how I should calculate this. I guess I was thinking I would just get more power than I initially need - just to make sure I don't lack any power. I've checked out some 32mm ball-screws with anti-backlash from Alibaba. Again - rather too strong, than too weak.

    3. Got it. Are you thinking so I can adjust the rollers to adjust the pressure on the rails, thereby tightening it up?7

    4. We have some DMG Mori's at work. I was intrigued by their design to start with, and thought I should do something up that ally to maximize work area.

    5. I'm Norwegian, so English is not my mothers tongue. You say I need torque, and not RPM for steel - but 12K RPM is a good middle ground for aluminium and steel? How would I measure the torque in a spindle? By horsepower? Kw? Would eventually the spindle I found with 7.5 Kw be sufficient?

    6. Indeed. This is my experience as well. However, this manufacturer has delivered spindles for quite some time now - and it seems their previous customers is satisfied with their products. I have been struggling to find other spindle manufacturers than Chinese that can deliver a spindle with the demands I have for it. I'm sure that there are other companies that produces this elsewhere - but it doesn't seem that they are priced, or advertised to sell to individuals or hobbyist. Therefore I'm thinking that the Chinese is my only alternative. If you have any suggestions, then please post!

    7. If there was any other machine that fit my needs I could retrofit, then I would. However, my demands are specific, I have the funds to do it, and I would like to try.

    8. Just to clarify; I would get the materials like steel and aluminium I need from my employer for next-to-nothing. So I have quite some savings there. As mentioned in OP, I'll make the investments over time. So if I stop at 15 000 or 25 000 USD isn't really that important.

    Thanks for the input!



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    Default Re: DIY CNC Mill - Playing around with the thought

    Quote Originally Posted by mick41zxr View Post
    Half way through building pretty much as you describe, however I would suggest as others have suggested & retrofit an existing machine. they seem to be plentiful for reasonable coin states side.
    Otherwise look for an RF45 clone with a BT30 spindle. Built with closed loop steppers would be a god compromise.
    Careful as costs can get away from you. If you can get away with doing a few foreign orders on your work machines may save some.
    Regards,
    MB
    DIY CNC Mill - Playing around with the thought-img_0643-jpg
    I need a spindle with a pull-bar to handle ATC. I have a concept on a tool-magazine that would be too much too explain. I live in Norway, and the variety of machines to retrofit is not very big. I have considered retrofitting - but there just isn't any alternatives to retrofit here. Therefore; I'll rather take my chances of doing it scratch-built.

    Exciting build there, friend! Do you have a thread where you post updates? Would love to follow your work!



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    Default Re: DIY CNC Mill - Playing around with the thought

    Quote Originally Posted by hanermo View Post
    Go ahead !

    It will be an interesting and educational and expensive journey.
    There are 3-4 relevant samples of people milling steel with shop built tools. Afaik.
    The wall thicknesses are typically 1/2" or more.

    I am re-finishing (version 5) my big VMC.
    Parts cost alone == 20.000€ in bulk import wholesale costs.
    Total current value of tools+parts == 100.000 €.
    + 17.000+ hours of work.

    Certainly a small VMC can be made for 15.000$ in parts..
    .. if you aim for cheap vs good.

    Good results from rigidity.
    Thicker screws, bigger linears, thicker section size flats.
    Bigger section sizes.

    All modern machine tools embody about 2% load vs capacity.
    So do all good lathes, since forever.
    My VMC with == 1000 kgf force on x,y has 50.000 kgf linears on the z axis.
    35 mm hiwin hgw, and doubled rails on the front. 32 mm screws.
    I'm pretty sure I'll be able to make mine for less than 100 000 Euro, and 17 000+ work hours. I'm not making a 5x6m VMC. The total size of it will probably be 1600x1200x2100mm (Length, Width, Height).

    Could you post a link to put me in the right direction regarding the load vs capacity question? What defines your kgf (Kg Force?)? Can I convert the oz.lb from the servos though an equation of some sorts to calculate the Kgf with the different speed reducers? Again, pardon my ignorance. I'm trying to learn this.



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