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  1. #13
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    Default Re: DIY CNC Mill - Playing around with the thought

    Yes power will be a problem, especially on the spindle. Faced the same issue on current build. Most dedicated spindle motors are 3 phase.
    I am testing one now that is single phase 2.2kW 8000rpm.
    That being said I have 15amp circuit supplying spindle & 10 amp circuit supplying controls & servo's. Both 240v single phase.
    What sort of travel distances are you looking for?
    Regards,
    MichaelDIY CNC Mill - Playing around with the thought-img_0518-jpg



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    Default Re: DIY CNC Mill - Playing around with the thought

    Quote Originally Posted by Andreiir View Post
    First of all , u need to see what precision u need , if u need high precision , u need go epoxy granite , if u dont need that much precision u can go with steel frame.
    Noise is not a problem with a very rigid vmc , it wont sound at all , and if u build it with eg , it will make low noise .
    Beside this u can make an enclosure isolated , and it will be ok , for all sounds that will bother u .
    Don"t listen to people that want get u out of line with ur dream , just do it and leave others with they dreams .
    With that money u can buy an vmc , and retrofit , but is not like u do it , u learn a loot of thinks , if u make the vmc . And u will know all the tricks for building one vmc , but u need tools for this , and help of other machinist with a good vmc , for aligning the rails and ballscrew .
    I would like to get it as accurate as possible. I've seen some DIY'ers on YouTube that have used EG - quite frankly I thought they did this to save money, not to gain rigidity. Would I be able to gain the same result if I were to weld the tubes with all tube ends intersecting? So that I can fill the frame entirely with EG? Or do I have to make it so that the EG will be in direct contact with linear rails and such? Worst case I could make a mold and cast the whole frame, but I think it would be easier to weld it given the machinery and tools I have available.

    Regarding isolating the enclosure; my thoughts exactly. I am thinking I would make it completely isolated, as well as further isolating the room the VMC would be in. If the enclosure is completely sealed, I could give it good ventilation, so that all smells and fumes would be sucked right outside when it's generated. As long as I can make the doors seal properly with a rubber gasket, I think it will be alright.

    Thanks brother! I'm pretty sure that this project is doable. At work I have pretty much any kind of VMC available, and plenty of colleagues willing to help with more years of experience than I have totally in life. We have Matec, Quaser, DMG Mori's, Haas Mori Seiki - you name it. Posts like yours makes my faith stronger - so thank you for that good sir!



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    Default Re: DIY CNC Mill - Playing around with the thought

    I suggest browsing through the forum threads and see what people have build that matches up with what you want. Pay close attention to whether or not the build was ever completed...

    While it is a moving table design, this is a particularly nice build: https://www.cnczone.com/forums/verti...262-forum.html

    bob



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    Default Re: DIY CNC Mill - Playing around with the thought

    With access to equipment you have your project is certainly possible.
    I used multiple tube (10mm wall) boxed & welded together. 25mm flat bar for rail mounts. Head was multiple laser cut 10mm plate. Whole lot internally braced & welded as well, has been post weld heat treated & will be filled with epoxy when done.
    Using 30mm linear rail with 25mm C3 double nut ballscrew. Some of my biggest expense was machining that had to be sent out as my knee mill too small.
    Regards,
    Michael
    DIY CNC Mill - Playing around with the thought-img_0010-jpgDIY CNC Mill - Playing around with the thought-img_0026-jpgDIY CNC Mill - Playing around with the thought-img_0032-jpgDIY CNC Mill - Playing around with the thought-img_0040-jpgDIY CNC Mill - Playing around with the thought-img_0266-jpgDIY CNC Mill - Playing around with the thought-img_0272-jpgDIY CNC Mill - Playing around with the thought-img_0395-jpgDIY CNC Mill - Playing around with the thought-img_0417-jpg



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    Default Re: DIY CNC Mill - Playing around with the thought

    Also in regards to enclosure don't stress too much.
    On previous build biggest noise was the blow off valve on my air compressor & if a tool chattered in a corner.
    Regards,
    MichaelDIY CNC Mill - Playing around with the thought-enclosure-jpg



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    Default Re: DIY CNC Mill - Playing around with the thought

    The max kgf force is defined by what your servos can deliver in Nm, and your ballscrews can impart.
    A typical Haas Vf series machine or ST lathe is == 1500 - 1600 kgf max force.
    The specs are public online.
    Using a 32 mm ballscrew.

    I use 32 mm ballscrews and 35 mm hiwin linear guides on my vmc (y is still 20 mm for now).
    Lathe has 25 mm hgw wide high load high preload blocks.
    The bigger haas (over == 1m table) (and everyone ) use 45 mm+ linears on the bigger machines.
    But they are real 25 kW output power industrial tools with a C frame.

    Basically a 32 mm screw equates to == 1500 kgf max force and 25 kW max spindle power.
    I expect to get about 2-3 kW usable spindle power from an ISO30 spindle on mine (able to do 7-15 kW on the spindle, theory).

    Std import screw mounts are crap.
    They are undersized and don´t use real AC bearings.

    For example the yoke on 12x my lathe, 32 mm screw on x, is 70 mm thick tool steel.
    About 2+ x D on screw is right for a yoke.

    For reference every single exceptional lathe in the world is about 2% load / strength.
    Monarch 10EE, Schaublin 102, Hardinge, Sharp (monarch copy), Wheeler, etc.

    Nm in torque x screw rise converts to push force.
    The actual formula is on the web.
    Essentially 3Nm stepper x 1:3 belt has == 600 kgf peak push force on a 5 mm screw.
    In use, only 30% of that.

    A 400W servo has about double-triple the real push force vs the stepper and 5x the accuracy for == 130$ more cost per axis.
    My VMC has 400 W ac servos, and lathe has higher end 750W servos, 690€ each axis.

    The 750 W servos == 10 Nm peak deliver == 700 kgf push force direct drive iirc.

    My max speed and acceleration on the lathe are vastly higher than I want.
    I want very high resolution, very high accuracy, good repeatability, and good - hopefully excellent - rigidity.
    Using about 30% of max acceleration and speed.

    - Load vs capacity.
    A HAAS DT type machine has theoretical linear guide capacity in several tons, about 20.000 kgf on 35 mm linears iirc.
    The rated table load capacity iirc is under 1000 kg.
    About 20:1.

    If someone loads the table at one end, failing the blocks, the MT builder must still replace and fix them.
    Even though it is against specs, policy, usage guidelines.
    Because the MT builder cannot afford a negative public meme on "weak" machines.

    D:
    I used to work as the Haas Spain commercial manager, under Hitec Mexico.
    Nr 1 dealer of Haas machines in the world.
    I have nothing except admiration and positive experiences from my time with them.
    Bill and Andy are great guys, honest, fair, smart.

    I looked at about 2000 machines in 200+ shops in 5 countries.
    We in Hitec Spain had special training from the best guys in the world.
    In 2013 the Haas Spain outfit was the nr 1 dealer in the world.

    And in 2011/2012 I sold the best, most high-spec haas machines in europe, for the best margins, with very very satisfied customers.
    65+ of them for about 5M++€.

    Dux .. just using cheap 400W ac servos will be fine.
    These will be more than you need for 5kW+ spindle power.


    Quote Originally Posted by DuxEtCapital View Post
    I'm pretty sure I'll be able to make mine for less than 100 000 Euro, and 17 000+ work hours. I'm not making a 5x6m VMC. The total size of it will probably be 1600x1200x2100mm (Length, Width, Height).

    Could you post a link to put me in the right direction regarding the load vs capacity question? What defines your kgf (Kg Force?)? Can I convert the oz.lb from the servos though an equation of some sorts to calculate the Kgf with the different speed reducers? Again, pardon my ignorance. I'm trying to learn this.




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    Default Re: DIY CNC Mill - Playing around with the thought

    Excellent post.
    Very much in line with my experiences and all those who mill steel.

    Quote Originally Posted by mick41zxr View Post
    With access to equipment you have your project is certainly possible.

    I used multiple tube (10mm wall) boxed & welded together. 25mm flat bar for rail mounts. Head was multiple laser cut 10mm plate. Whole lot internally braced & welded as well, has been post weld heat treated & will be filled with epoxy when done.
    Using 30mm linear rail with 25mm C3 double nut ballscrew. Some of my biggest expense was machining that had to be sent out as my knee mill too small.
    Regards,
    Michael




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    Default Re: DIY CNC Mill - Playing around with the thought

    Quote Originally Posted by DuxEtCapital View Post
    Would the smell, chips and fumes be a problem if the VMC has a full enclosure, with constant ventilation blowing everything outside? The chips would hit the walls, and fall down into the shute - and a conveyor belt taking the chips out into a 40L bucket? I mean even at work the chips is rarely a problem unless we use the blow-gun and chips go flying everywhere. I was thinking I could get around this using a fan-tool in the spindle. So that I can make a program to clean the table/workpiece after machining is complete.

    I already have a printer at home which have served me for some time now. I spend enough time at work as it is, and would like to enjoy milling in the comfort of my own home. I totally get what you mean regarding sound though. I though I should completely isolate the enclosure with several layers, as well as isolating the office where it would be placed. This combined with as rigid frame as possible, as well as rubber feet - I hope to minimize it to a level where I will be able to live with it.

    I don't have a garage - or a shed for that matter. :P
    A full isolation enclosure with external venting would make it a lot better, also take a lot more room (just how big is your desk!?? ). Not sure I'd bother with a chip conveyor/screw, you have enough on your plate as it is. You'll end up using the blow gun, though, with the cover off, and it's going to end up going everywhere. Still, you're already thinking of all this stuff and are one step ahead of most attempting it, you may be able to make it work.



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    Default Re: DIY CNC Mill - Playing around with the thought

    Quote Originally Posted by DuxEtCapital View Post
    I have 220V. I was thinking I could use multiple power supplies - so that each servo, and the spindle, can get their own. Connected to different ports around the house. That way I can distribute the load, and get around the need for all power through one port. I don't have a 3 phase circuit at home, and getting one in my neighborhood would be next to impossible - or at least exceed the the cost of the VMC by itself. I have electrician friends that I hope could help me find a way to make the multiple power-supply idea work.
    Unless you have an old house with old incoming electrical wiring, you have 3-phase coming in to your house, but this is just split up for all the normal circuits.

    Quote Originally Posted by DuxEtCapital
    5. I'm Norwegian, so English is not my mothers tongue. You say I need torque, and not RPM for steel - but 12K RPM is a good middle ground for aluminium and steel? How would I measure the torque in a spindle? By horsepower? Kw? Would eventually the spindle I found with 7.5 Kw be sufficient?
    If that spindle will pull 7.5Kw, you will need more than a 32 amp circuit just to power the spindle and I can more or less guarantee that you don't have that in your house. Normally you have one 20 amp or 25 amp socket in the house, which is for the oven in the kitchen.

    Whereabouts in Norway are you located?



  10. #22
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    Default Re: DIY CNC Mill - Playing around with the thought

    Quote Originally Posted by mick41zxr View Post
    Yes power will be a problem, especially on the spindle. Faced the same issue on current build. Most dedicated spindle motors are 3 phase.
    I am testing one now that is single phase 2.2kW 8000rpm.
    That being said I have 15amp circuit supplying spindle & 10 amp circuit supplying controls & servo's. Both 240v single phase.
    What sort of travel distances are you looking for?
    Regards,
    MichaelDIY CNC Mill - Playing around with the thought-img_0518-jpg
    I am aiming for a work area of 1000x800x800mm work area, so with the mounts for the linear guides I guess I'm looking at about 1400x1000x1000mm of travel distance.

    Have you had any success with cutting steel with the 2.2kW spindle? Does this spindle have to spin at 8000rpm, or can you regulate it so it moves slower?

    I'm sorry for my late replies. I'm working night shifts this week.



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    Default Re: DIY CNC Mill - Playing around with the thought

    Quote Originally Posted by mick41zxr View Post
    With access to equipment you have your project is certainly possible.
    I used multiple tube (10mm wall) boxed & welded together. 25mm flat bar for rail mounts. Head was multiple laser cut 10mm plate. Whole lot internally braced & welded as well, has been post weld heat treated & will be filled with epoxy when done.
    Using 30mm linear rail with 25mm C3 double nut ballscrew. Some of my biggest expense was machining that had to be sent out as my knee mill too small.
    Regards,
    Michael
    Very, very nice build! I'm in luck that I have the machinery that I have available - might be able to save quite a lot of bucks that way.

    I was looking through HIWINs products yesterday, and I came across some linear guides that I haven't considered before.

    The plan is to mount the X-axis onto the back wall of the machine with two QRW45CC linear guides, and one 32mm double-nut ballscrew. Then mount the Z-axis onto the slider plate of the X-axis, with the Y-axis mounted to the Z-axis (if that made any sense). I could throw up a quick sketch in paint or something when I get back home tonight, as I don't have my CAD-computer at the moment.

    According to HIWIN, the QR series offers super-high rigidity, and quiet operation - combined with long running life. Sounds like exactly what I need - or do you think this is a bit overkill?

    Hanermo says that I would be just fine with 400w servos, what is your thought on this? I'm starting to realize that I have to compromise with the some of the electrical components to be able to run this mill on 220V single phase. I found some 750W servos for quite a bit cheaper than the ones I posted in the OP.

    https://motioncontrolsystems.hiwin.c...eries-assembly

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-4NM-750W-...4AAOSwjh5bFjdD



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    Quote Originally Posted by DuxEtCapital View Post
    Very, very nice build! I'm in luck that I have the machinery that I have available - might be able to save quite a lot of bucks that way.

    I was looking through HIWINs products yesterday, and I came across some linear guides that I haven't considered before.

    The plan is to mount the X-axis onto the back wall of the machine with two QRW45CC linear guides, and one 32mm double-nut ballscrew. Then mount the Z-axis onto the slider plate of the X-axis, with the Y-axis mounted to the Z-axis (if that made any sense). I could throw up a quick sketch in paint or something when I get back home tonight, as I don't have my CAD-computer at the moment.

    According to HIWIN, the QR series offers super-high rigidity, and quiet operation - combined with long running life. Sounds like exactly what I need - or do you think this is a bit overkill?

    Hanermo says that I would be just fine with 400w servos, what is your thought on this? I'm starting to realize that I have to compromise with the some of the electrical components to be able to run this mill on 220V single phase. I found some 750W servos for quite a bit cheaper than the ones I posted in the OP.

    https://motioncontrolsystems.hiwin.c...eries-assembly

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-4NM-750W-...4AAOSwjh5bFjdD
    Here's a link to a store that bought all the remaining stock of HiWin America and sells their stuff at great prices.

    http://www.automation-overstock.com



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DIY CNC Mill - Playing around with the thought

DIY CNC Mill - Playing around with the thought