Hi I am looking to build a CNC mill/router....

[KainKelly]

Hi I am kain kelly, I am looking to build a CNC mill/router hybrid. I only have hand drawings at the moment, I worked with cancer/cad in highschool. We used rhino and I am still learning free cad and CNC tool kit.

I am hoping to cut steel, stainless steel and unlikely but possibly titinium attached are my hand sketch's, ignore the top one on the far right and the one on the vary bottom left. I need to come up with better ways of doing those. (One is to mount the work table on and the other was to raise the linear rails up to prevent some flexing.) This will be a moving gantery that will be a three screw machine made largely from 3/8 steel with a epoxy granite fill. Machine size is not set in stone but I am thinking between 24*36 and 30*40. For a spindle I am looking at a 2.2kw "milling" head, however the RPMs are WAY to high to mill with. I have pondered as a first project to make a plantary gear reduction to get the RPMs down to something more reasonable for metal working. However I think that is a entire different thread.

The top middle drawing is for my X axis, it will me a 3/8 wall by 4*3 C channel that will be braced by welding in 3/8 plate every four inches filled with epoxy granite. All plates will be 3/8 and I really don't know how to explain the bracing I have come up with.

I am building this machine with the hope I will be able to easily move it in and out of a apartment, or at least easier than a converted mill. While taking up less space for work area, being in a apartment noise isolation and a enclosure are musts of course. However those are not rocket science, and I am still going over different designs for them.

Thanks for any advice, I know that this is not the best way to go about this. I hope to get it better than just good enough.

Sincerely,
Kain Kelly

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[awerby]

Sorry to rain on your parade, but if those numbers are inches and not millimeters and you really want to machine stainless steel, there's no way you're going to do that with a home-made moving gantry machine that you can easily move in and out of an apartment. You're right about the spindle, though - it would be totally unsuited for the job. There's really no such thing as a "router-mill hybrid" - these are separate species that don't normally produce viable offspring. If you build a very heavy-duty router, you can use it to cut aluminum. If you build a mill with a very fast auxiliary spindle, you can use it to cut wood. If you want a large mill that will cut steel, it's not likely to be compatible with apartment living, and could well fall through the floor. Have you asked your landlord about this idea?

I can't make much sense of your drawings - do you still have a CAD program? I've never heard of "cancer/CAD" but it sounds like something I wouldn't want to catch...

[hanermo]

You can build a cnc router fairly easily.
Some can be very cheap.

I suggest You make one, as small as possible, to test your concept.
Then start scaling up- ..

I have a machine similar to your goals, totally scratch built.
About 2400 kg mass, 2-3-4-5 cm thick steel parts.
About 100.000 € in cost of the parts needed to make it, current value + 100.000€+ euros lost along 15 years of work and trials and training industrially in real cnc.

It is perfectly possible to use a good router made for wood/alu and mill steel with it ..
if You can give allowance for everything and adjust the process.. until it works.
Several have done so with quite good results.

So .. a given fact is that sometimes with some routers some steel milling works well.
Yes.

My lathe now mills steel well.
A 50 mm D, ISO30 face mill, aptn inserts, 100 css/m, upto 3.5 mm depth of cut full width 50 mm, == 500 rpm.
Jig is ==40 kg in mass.
12" chuck is == 10-12 kg.
Socket taper at 2-4 um TIR is MT5.
Power is 2.5 kW cont. servo at 90 Nm torque at spindle.
Z axis rigidity is 54 kgf force / um on a 32/5 mm ballscrew.

All above are actual results, about 100x higher than any light router.
Multiply 100x100x100x100 ==

[KainKelly]

Sorry to rain on your parade, but if those numbers are inches and not millimeters and you really want to machine stainless steel, there's no way you're going to do that with a home-made moving gantry machine that you can easily move in and out of an apartment. You're right about the spindle, though - it would be totally unsuited for the job. There's really no such thing as a "router-mill hybrid" - these are separate species that don't normally produce viable offspring. If you build a very heavy-duty router, you can use it to cut aluminum. If you build a mill with a very fast auxiliary spindle, you can use it to cut wood. If you want a large mill that will cut steel, it's not likely to be compatible with apartment living, and could well fall through the floor. Have you asked your landlord about this idea?

I can't make much sense of your drawings - do you still have a CAD program? I've never heard of "cancer/CAD" but it sounds like something I wouldn't want to catch...

Sorry about the cancer cad.... Auto correct, I was affraid you were going to say that. Do you think it would be easier to gear up a mill for foam and wood or gear down a router for milling metals. I will work on drawings this in free cad, my assumption is to speed up a mill do to the assumed loss of accuracy and regity of a device just hanging out. As for free cad it will be a few days before I can post screen grabs from my laptop, I have no wifi at the moment. I will also make note to attach units to my dimensions in the future. Also with cutting stainless, is it only a cutting force issue or is it also partly due to work harding?

[KainKelly]

You can build a cnc router fairly easily.
Some can be very cheap.

I suggest You make one, as small as possible, to test your concept.
Then start scaling up- ..

I have a machine similar to your goals, totally scratch built.
About 2400 kg mass, 2-3-4-5 cm thick steel parts.
About 100.000 € in cost of the parts needed to make it, current value + 100.000€+ euros lost along 15 years of work and trials and training industrially in real cnc.

It is perfectly possible to use a good router made for wood/alu and mill steel with it ..
if You can give allowance for everything and adjust the process.. until it works.
Several have done so with quite good results.

So .. a given fact is that sometimes with some routers some steel milling works well.
Yes.

My lathe now mills steel well.
A 50 mm D, ISO30 face mill, aptn inserts, 100 css/m, upto 3.5 mm depth of cut full width 50 mm, == 500 rpm.
Jig is ==40 kg in mass.
12" chuck is == 10-12 kg.
Socket taper at 2-4 um TIR is MT5.
Power is 2.5 kW cont. servo at 90 Nm torque at spindle.
Z axis rigidity is 54 kgf force / um on a 32/5 mm ballscrew.

All above are actual results, about 100x higher than any light router.
Multiply 100x100x100x100 ==

Thank you, I will make note of your numbers. If I may do you have a build thread posted?

[KainKelly]

Sorry to rain on your parade, but if those numbers are inches and not millimeters and you really want to machine stainless steel, there's no way you're going to do that with a home-made moving gantry machine that you can easily move in and out of an apartment. You're right about the spindle, though - it would be totally unsuited for the job. There's really no such thing as a "router-mill hybrid" - these are separate species that don't normally produce viable offspring. If you build a very heavy-duty router, you can use it to cut aluminum. If you build a mill with a very fast auxiliary spindle, you can use it to cut wood. If you want a large mill that will cut steel, it's not likely to be compatible with apartment living, and could well fall through the floor. Have you asked your landlord about this idea?

I can't make much sense of your drawings - do you still have a CAD program? I've never heard of "cancer/CAD" but it sounds like something I wouldn't want to catch...

Could a CNC spindle be rigged to use EDM for working metals? Maybe spin it at something along the lines of 6-8 k rpm to use that as a chip/sluge evacuation? Make the electrodes shaped like end Mills from brass or copper, while pumping the EDM fluid through the tool and up like flood coolant. I would think such a machine could be made from aluminum profile with maybe a EG infill.

[KH0UJ]

On my opinion, if you like to work with steel I think you can have a hybrid router / milling CNC machine, I just finished drawing my dream CNC machine haha, hopefully I can finish it in the end of this year , if you want to mill metals, all the ball screws and rails should be at least hidden, covered by the flying metal chips, wood chips, in that way you dont have to always overhaul your ball screws, large manual knobs for you to be able to zero the machine easily, larger spindle motor at least 2.2K inverter type water cooled, for you to scrape thicker passes on metals and a shortcut on CAM programming, a recirculator bin for you to recycle the coolant and for your tool bit to be as cool as possible from start to finish.

[KH0UJ]

You dont need to put limit switches for it will give you problems in the future specially on milling metals @ 24K RPM, the harmonic vibrations of the table will cause the limit switches to vibrate too, thus interrupting the machining process

[ger21]

Also with cutting stainless, is it only a cutting force issue or is it also partly due to work harding?

I think they are related.

If you want the machine to be able to cut like a mill, it needs to be massively built. You need very high rigidity, and a lot of mass. A router can be much lighter, as the materials are much softer. But even a small, $20,000 router would struggle cutting steel, even with an appropriate spindle.

[A_Camera]

Personally I think I would not build a CNC if I was living in an apartment. It makes too muck noise so it would drive my neighbours crazy and I would end up on the streets. So, ask your land lord first, but be honest. Also, the use of chemicals needed for metal milling is really not healthy, so you have to check other regulations. Building a machine requires other tools and machines, using those in an apartment is another "noise and conflict generator"...

My DIY moving table machine is about 100kg, is fairly small, but is definitely not capable of milling steel. I think that for steel milling I would need one which weights at least ten times more.

[KH0UJ]

Well I can cut almost any material I want on an ordinary flimsy CNC 6090 gantry type boss and @ full speed 24K RPM, as long as it`s softer than a carbide bit I can cut it, it all depends on how you attack it, strength of materials is the key.

[KainKelly]

Well I can cut almost any material I want on an ordinary flimsy CNC 6090 gantry type boss and @ full speed 24K RPM, as long as it`s softer than a carbide bit I can cut it, it all depends on how you attack it, strength of materials is the key.

How much are you cutting vs rubbing?

[KainKelly]

I think they are related.

If you want the machine to be able to cut like a mill, it needs to be massively built. You need very high rigidity, and a lot of mass. A router can be much lighter, as the materials are much softer. But even a small, $20,000 router would struggle cutting steel, even with an appropriate spindle.

Yeah, I have been figuring that. I have been trying to find good information open source about sinker EDM, I am thinking that maybe a better way to mill metal for now at least.

[KainKelly]

You dont need to put limit switches for it will give you problems in the future specially on milling metals @ 24K RPM, the harmonic vibrations of the table will cause the limit switches to vibrate too, thus interrupting the machining process

Looks like a great machine what will it be made from?

[KH0UJ]

The Column and the base will be made of steel (1/4 thick) a CNC plasma will be a better partner for this kind of project, You mentioned you like working with steel this is how I cut metals on a cheap router.

CNC plasma cutting 3/8 steel.





This is how I play with metals








As you an see on the pictures, it`s really a bit messy not to have a recirculator bin, all the chips will be on the place, unlike if there`s coolant flowing, some chips will be flushed on the flowing liquid at the same time cooling the tool bit so that it will not change it`s state when it gets hot, eliminating the resharpening in the middle of the program route

[KainKelly]

The Column and the base will be made of steel (1/4 thick) a CNC plasma will be a better partner for this kind of project, You mentioned you like working with steel this is how I cut metals on a cheap router.

CNC plasma cutting 3/8 steel.





This is how I play with metals








As you an see on the pictures, it`s really a bit messy not to have a recirculator bin, all the chips will be on the place, unlike if there`s coolant flowing, some chips will be flushed on the flowing liquid at the same time cooling the tool bit so that it will not change it`s state when it gets hot, eliminating the resharpening in the middle of the program route

Thanks I see how that is working now, have you thought about flood coolant at all? That is a nice set up you have.

[footpetaljones]

Yeah, I have been figuring that. I have been trying to find good information open source about sinker EDM, I am thinking that maybe a better way to mill metal for now at least.

EDM's are sloooooooow. You aren't talking about inches per minute, but inches per hour.

[KainKelly]

EDM's are sloooooooow. You aren't talking about inches per minute, but inches per hour.

Sadly yes I am aware, its just a not do it at all or do it ungoddly slow. If aluminum can be worked, I would assume that brass and or copper could be to. There by making the electrodes, and then move to a separate EDM machine. Maybe make it a big aluminum casting or something. I just don't see a point to going through the trouble of using steel and/or EG for something that has such little if any cutting force or vibration. I haven't looked into it to much yet, but I have thought about looking into a cheap plasma cutter for roughing/low tolerance work then a proper EDM system for finishing/tight tolerance work. I have to look a little more into the first.

[A_Camera]

...this is how I cut metals on a cheap router...

Yes sure, anything is possible if you do it within the limitations of the machine even if not optimal, but would you do it in an apartment? Apart from the mess and the toxic fumes as well as fire hazard (depending on the chemicals) it generates a HUGE noise which I would definitely not accept if I was the landlord or a neighbour.

[KH0UJ]

Yes sure, anything is possible if you do it within the limitations of the machine even if not optimal, but would you do it in an apartment? Apart from the mess and the toxic fumes as well as fire hazard (depending on the chemicals) it generates a HUGE noise which I would definitely not accept if I was the landlord or a neighbour.

Hahahaha definitely not sir, I work in a shop, away from the neighbors, if it`s in the apartment I think the scenario will be this...........weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeewwwww wwwwwwwwwwwwweeewwwwww, the neigbor will knock on the door, then he will open the door......Do you want me to call 911? I cant sleep on the noise.....then he will pull all the plugs to shut everything down... hahaha so it`s going to be 911 or shutdown.