Are Twin spindle Twin turret lathes as complex as they look?

[vfsi]

I am trying to select a twin spindle twin turret machine, used, what do I need to know that is not obvious.
Can they feed all axis simultaneously? Or only this controller or with these options?
Can either turret machine on either spindle, guarding against collisions of course?
What usually breaks, wears out or never worked as stated?
I see some lathes with milling heads in place of the upper turret. What is more productive for making 4 axis parts (X Y Z and C)?
What machine did you like? Not like?

Thanks in advance for your opinions.

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• Twin Turret

[mactec54]

I am trying to select a twin spindle twin turret machine, used, what do I need to know that is not obvious.
Can they feed all axis simultaneously? Or only this controller or with these options?
Can either turret machine on either spindle, guarding against collisions of course?
What usually breaks, wears out or never worked as stated?
I see some lathes with milling heads in place of the upper turret. What is more productive for making 4 axis parts (X Y Z and C)?
What machine did you like? Not like?

Thanks in advance for your opinions.

If you are looking at a twin spindle lathe with twin turrets, you should already have a good understanding of them, and how they work, live tooling is part of a machine like this, it would be worthless without live tooling

Can they crash, any setup is only as good as the programmer, they are not easy if you have never done one before

Each turret is normally only use for the spindle that it is associated with

What is more productive for making 4 axes parts, a 5axes lathe like what you have been asking about, you can bar feed a machine like this, and have finished parts, and don't need a operator to watch over it, only to check parts are in spec and load a new bar stock when needed

[vfsi]

Thanks for your response.
I have a good understanding of the machines but not the details and limitations. I was looking for a little bit of detail on how different manufactures and different ages of machines compare as to the multi tasking capability.
Also I see videos of two single point tools, one in each turret, working on the same part at the same time. Are most machines, controllers capable of doing that or is that an option feature?
Can some one tell me about challenging operations that they accomplished with their multi task machine?

[mactec54]

Thanks for your response.
I have a good understanding of the machines but not the details and limitations. I was looking for a little bit of detail on how different manufactures and different ages of machines compare as to the multi tasking capability.
Also I see videos of two single point tools, one in each turret, working on the same part at the same time. Are most machines, controllers capable of doing that or is that an option feature?
Can some one tell me about challenging operations that they accomplished with their multi task machine?

These machines are manufacture independent, what one has may not even be an option on another machine, as for both turrets moving working at the same time, not all do this, you will have to find a machine that will do everything you want to do, write out a list of what you want to achieve with your finished parts, and then find a machine that will do all those operations you want, add some extra operations as well, for those jobs that need more operations

[Green0]

I am trying to select a twin spindle twin turret machine, used, what do I need to know that is not obvious.
Can they feed all axis simultaneously? Or only this controller or with these options?
Can either turret machine on either spindle, guarding against collisions of course?
What usually breaks, wears out or never worked as stated?
I see some lathes with milling heads in place of the upper turret. What is more productive for making 4 axis parts (X Y Z and C)?
What machine did you like? Not like?

Thanks in advance for your opinions.

I think they are very complicated to program and operate, it would be a small mountain if you had not already programmed and run a C&Y single turret lathe for example. You will need a better operator and programmer for them. The efficiency of a twin turret is relational to the programming strategies and quality, so things like a timed rough and finish operation, drilling and grooving etc, are ways to bring down a run time, but are also ways to make operating the machine more dangerous for crashes. We have a 70-30 balance on our parts keeping the upper on the main and the lower on the sub. We could probably force an 8% improvement in run time through the use of dangerous strategies that would complicate restarting procedures and have the turrets dancing around on the main side of the machine but we haven't employed those strategies yet out of desire to keep the machine unharmed.

We have a TT1800SY. It can feed all axis simultaneously (not sure about A (the subspindle)<but you want it still while machining. It has a 31i-B control which can do that. Either turret could machine on either spindle, but wait codes are required to safely bring a turret across the machine or you could crash the turrets together. I'm not sure anything normally breaks, wears out or doesn't work as stated. The live tools hate large chucks. Working around large chucks is tough so you should want the smallest diameter chuck that will do what you need to do. We have to use a lot of 3/4" ER extensions in radial milling operations in special 3/4" ER25 collets and we use teflon tape on the ER nut securing the 3/4 shank because they can and will try to come out of the live holders if the operation is too aggressive.

You won't beat a turret machine for speed. The live head machines would be better for low volume production or work on large parts, or work that is nearly 100% milling, because the spindle quality will be higher then and your milling operations will be more efficient and only your tool change times will suffer.

[Green0]

In the middle of programming a job - really the worst thing about twins is the programming. I paid a lot of money for Mastercam Mill-turn, and I manually program wait codes and part handling as well as part ejects. A better programming solution would really increase the desirability of these machines. They are very capable, but you have to play some seriously time consuming mental chess to program these machines.

If you had a solid solution for those issues, the first part run offs would be a lot faster and less stressful as well.

[vfsi]

Thanks for the information. I just ordered the post processor for a 2S2T machine. I will see how it goes writing programs. As for milling, we will need more speed and less torque from the live tools. Have you ever used the speeder live tools?

[deadlykitten]

I am trying to select a twin spindle twin turret machine, used, what do I need to know that is not obvious ............

hi vfsi go & hire ur self at someone who has such a lathe; work on it; quit & buy that cnc

... and there will be a 2nd hand cnc that you know everything about it

we will need more speed and less torque from the live tools

i seen just know that your 1st post is from december what have you done ? what cnc did you got ?

about live tools, there are some holders with gear ratio <> 1:1 at ews :
https://www.ews-tools.de/en/online-catalog/english.aspx
https://www.ews-tools.de/en/online-c...h/machine.aspx

kindly

[vfsi]

Well first off, the only person dumb enough to hire me would not be smart enough to buy good equipment.

We did buy a Mori Seiki ZT machine. It looks well maintained and appears to run smoothly. Now the fun begins.

[Green0]

Thanks for the information. I just ordered the post processor for a 2S2T machine. I will see how it goes writing programs. As for milling, we will need more speed and less torque from the live tools. Have you ever used the speeder live tools?

We have wto 1:3's, heimatech 1:3's, and bmt 55 mdtool 1:2's. They typically arent quite as rigid as std rpm live tools but when you maybe slightly adjust a feed or accept a slightly worse surface finish, they work fine and can save a lot of cycle time.

You will not imo get 1000 hours out of them. Their lifespans might be 40% of that prior to rebuild so there is a cost associated to them. We find them really nice to have though so that certain jobs dont run like total ****. Aluminum for example essentially loves to have speeders.

We run regofix recoool adapters and 1000psi coolant also to keep the tools flushed and sometimes tools go 4000 minutes in aluminum or 300 minutes in 17-4.

[vfsi]

We have wto 1:3's, heimatech 1:3's, and bmt 55 mdtool 1:2's. They typically arent quite as rigid as std rpm live tools but when you maybe slightly adjust a feed or accept a slightly worse surface finish, they work fine and can save a lot of cycle time.

You will not imo get 1000 hours out of them. Their lifespans might be 40% of that prior to rebuild so there is a cost associated to them. We find them really nice to have though so that certain jobs dont run like total ****. Aluminum for example essentially loves to have speeders.

We run regofix recoool adapters and 1000psi coolant also to keep the tools flushed and sometimes tools go 4000 minutes in aluminum or 300 minutes in 17-4.

Thanks for the info. Your info on the life span confirms my expectation. Our machine will see a steady diet of aluminum so it sounds like we bite the bullet and tool up with speeders and a good PM plan.

[Ox1]

Lower turrets and all associated slides and covers are high maint items.
Expect to dink with these 2-3 times as much as uppers.

If you are looking at a twin spindle lathe with twin turrets, you should already have a good understanding of them, and how they work, live tooling is part of a machine like this, it would be worthless without live tooling

I hope that you were having a bad day when you posted that...

[deadlykitten]

Lower turrets and all associated slides and covers are high maint items

hy ox / one may deal with them by installing shower coolants, secondary pumps, etc

if u wish, pls check the photos : https://www.cnczone.com/forums/okuma...ject-fast.html

kindly

[PMT]

I would be very cautious looking for this type of machine used.

Repo, bankrupt auction? You may be OK. If it's a trade in sitting at a used dealer facility???

Typically, these things are ridden hard and put away wet. Barfed, automated, multiple shifts sometimes 24/7. Spindles always turning.

Look at it this way. Don't think some shop owner said "You know, I made a lot of money with this machine. Time to pass my good fortune to somebody else."

[jmk021083]

I read in one of your comments you do a lot of work with a TT1800SY. We have several & the problem I run into is holding endmills with the live tooling. Long story short, I have been through several tool holding options and worked with several people and companies on options without success. As you know these machines come with all ER25 live holders and they do not hold an endmill well. What is your suggestion or opinion when it comes to this. I am aware of preci-flex options of endmill holders but I have parts that have tolerances to allow full slotting without the need for a finish pass. So for cycle time I do not want to use the Y axis & want to use a specific diameter endmill. It is strating to look like the best option is buy new heads in ER 32 or 40.

Also, I seen your comment about dissatisfaction with MasterCam MillTurn. I have been programming these "manually" for years and am going through the learning process with this. Makes me second guess my decision.

[deadlykitten]

We have several & the problem I run into is holding endmills with the live tooling

hi jmk, what about changing the arbor inside all live toolholders, so to suit 32 instead of 25 ? i guess the motor can deliver enough power

try also bearing nuts

I am aware of preci-flex options of endmill holders

far as i know, preci-flex is a quick change system, and such systems are not as rigid as integral ones

however, even inside an 32 or 40, if milling operation has high specs, the endmill may slip inside the collet

if you wish to avoid this, maybe you should try to order some custom arbors at shunk, that use tendo-aviation approach / kindly

[jmk021083]

I am familiar with the option MD tooling (MT Marchetta) offers for replacing arbors but most of our holders are Eppinger beings that is what is supplied with the machines. I have never taken the Eppinger apart but I assume the are built differently and I don't see that option with Eppinger?

[deadlykitten]

hello, sometime ago, during a setup, i needed to mess with a live holder, otherwise, downtime would appear, fixtures number would increase, etc

it took me a while, but i like to do such things

so try to take them apart, make a nice sketch, and increase the frontal cone, so to handle a bigger collet

... day one : take it apart, make the drawing, ( try to ) put it back
... day two : machine the new arbor + flame it + grind it
... day three : put the new part inside the live holder and do some tests / kindly


tip : maybe is a good idea to pass this task to the guy on your left

[jmk021083]

I "might" (fingers crossed!!!) found an option with the shunk TRIBOS for one specific application but I would still like to hear what others opinions are.

[deadlykitten]

hello again jmk one more thing : if you simply craft another arbor so to suit a bigger collet, you will end up with a new one, just 'a little bit' longer

if you wish for a preci-flex, or tribos, etc, you may end-up with a much longer arbor

a longer arbor = tool overhang, cutting out of the console, etc ... rigidity loss

so, my, advice, would be to increase the gripping force as much as possible, with minimal added-length to the arbor

this may require :
... changing the bearings, and maybe other organs, inside the live holder ( it has the benefit that you can keep the live holder body as it is, and just invest a bit of time & money so to mess up with it's guts )
... custom live holder body + custom guts ; this is more expensive and more time consuming, but somehow, this allready exists : for example, there are different tool holder manufacturers, and each one of them sells a different live holder for the same er32 sometimes, the difference in length between such holders may be semnificative; like this, if you wish for a longer arbor, but your live holder is too short, maybe you can buy only a bigger holder body and fill it how you like; it helps to be arround a tool holder manufacturer, so to pay them a visit and see what happens

i can craft od, id and simple live holders ( with 1 arbor ) for okuma cncs, with radial turrets, including modified live holders that use hidraulic clamping, that delivers better grip then a normal er collet; however, an endmill will still slip inside, especially if it has tilted flutes and cutting forces are high, but this happens anyhow

if you wish to avoid slipping, think of weldon; weldon has good grip, but also a bit of tir ( there are also other solutions, but weldon is less expensive ) / kindly