Skyfire CNC owners?

[rx8pilot]

Still no peeps out of Jan or Skyfire......crazy. Completely crazy.

The Haas order is all set up with financing and a whole tool package - ready for my signature tomorrow. Delivery in 3 weeks.

My options are limited. Tormach has too many limitations, Skyfire is a mystery....Haas can actually deliver in time for my next job.

[handlewanker]

Hi.....3 WEEKS......wow, that is a real get up and go solution......you won't be going away for Christmas that's for sure.

So the China trip is a no go.....could have saved you a heap of money.....at least when the Haas eventually pays for itself you won't be looking back..........I like your self funded patriotic spirit, so much in keeping with old Trumpie's "make USA grate"......the next face at the window might have a different pint of view.

I suppose you could apply for a special tax break seeing as how you are going to buy American......better be buying all your tooling branded USA too just to keep it in the club.

Come to think of it....Tormach buy all their tooling from China and just sell it on with a markup to stay in business.....hmmmmmm,..... how unpatriotic.

While your whiling away the hours to delivery day........perhaps you could compare the attributes of the Skyfire model to the Haas.......and any compromises for either package......money aside that is.
Ian.

[mactec54]

While your whiling away the hours to delivery day........perhaps you could compare the attributes of the Skyfire model to the Haas.......and any compromises for either package......money aside that is.
Ian.

There is nothing to compare, even the largest SkyFire machine, is still a toy beside the Haas machine, attributes still nothing to compare, ( 2 ) totally different machines for a different market place

The Tormach machine is made in China also not just the tooling, as for tooling for the Haas most of what is available in the USA is imported also, there is some that is manufactured in the USA but you pay the price if you want it, more than double for most tool holders

He does not have to apply for a Tax break, you get it, when you file your taxes, this is every year until the machines whole cost has been deprecated, he also will get a big amount back on the interest he pays on the loan as well

[handlewanker]

Interest on the loan.........oh dear, that is only a 30% tax return for a 100% outlay .....in OZ that is.

Anything you buy that is work related and gets tax deducted is still a burden when you have to pay out top dollar and only get back peanuts......better than nothing I suppose.

I suppose a loan is one way to finance a workshop.........loans are almost as bad as credit cards at 20% +.

I went down a different path when I set up in business in '95.......it's called an asset builder loan account......min take out is $20,000, then you only have to pay the interest each month on the amount you use if you want to, no other charges........same rate as your mortgage.....ours was 5% back then.

About that time I shredded my credit card as the rate was too high.

If you want to end it you just pay off the principle, but the beauty of it is you don't have to re-apply for a loan once it's set up and you have a surplus balance..............also you have to have property with enough equity in it......a careful funds management strategy is a must have or you'll end up owing your soul to the bank.

Hmmmm, Tormach is ALL Chinese??...... wow, the China syndrome is alive and kicking in USA despite what Trump has dreamed up on the platform of lies and lost promises last election day.

Perhaps attributes was a long word to use for the Skyfire, Haas or Tormach et all banana bunch,...... comparison maybe.............in my book if it ain't at least got linear rails, it ain't a CNC mill no matter what the size was and anything without balls crews or ISO 30 is a non starter too.......oh yeah, and a factory fitted enclosure is a must have.

I have ISO 20 on my mill.....it might be BT20 as it has a pull stud......but for anything bigger I'd go for BT30 (with the pull stud).
Ian.

[mactec54]

Interest on the loan.........oh dear, that is only a 30% tax return for a 100% outlay .....in OZ that is.

Anything you buy that is work related and gets tax deducted is still a burden when you have to pay out top dollar and only get back peanuts......better than nothing I suppose.

I suppose a loan is one way to finance a workshop.........loans are almost as bad as credit cards at 20% +.

I went down a different path when I set up in business in '95.......it's called an asset builder loan account......min take out is $20,000, then you only have to pay the interest each month on the amount you use if you want to, no other charges........same rate as your mortgage.....ours was 5% back then.

About that time I shredded my credit card as the rate was too high.

If you want to end it you just pay off the principle, but the beauty of it is you don't have to re-apply for a loan once it's set up and you have a surplus balance..............also you have to have property with enough equity in it......a careful funds management strategy is a must have or you'll end up owing your soul to the bank.

Hmmmm, Tormach is ALL Chinese??...... wow, the China syndrome is alive and kicking in USA despite what Trump has dreamed up on the platform of lies and lost promises last election day.

Perhaps attributes was a long word to use for the Skyfire, Haas or Tormach et all banana bunch,...... comparison maybe.............in my book if it ain't at least got linear rails, it ain't a CNC mill no matter what the size was and anything without balls crews or ISO 30 is a non starter too.......oh yeah, and a factory fitted enclosure is a must have.

I have ISO 20 on my mill.....it might be BT20 as it has a pull stud......but for anything bigger I'd go for BT30 (with the pull stud).
Ian.

I not sure what Trump has to do with anything, just a propaganda machine, anyone would have to be very foolish to take anything he says seriously

The Haas Machine he is getting is a Cat 40, and is 1542Kg or close to 3500Lbs dry weight

If the buyer here has good credit, then he can get a very low interest loan if one needs it, Haas has there own finance program also, if one leases a machine with a $1 buy out at the end, every cent you pay for the lease is tax deductible

[louieatienza]

Hi.....3 WEEKS......wow, that is a real get up and go solution......you won't be going away for Christmas that's for sure.

So the China trip is a no go.....could have saved you a heap of money.....at least when the Haas eventually pays for itself you won't be looking back..........I like your self funded patriotic spirit, so much in keeping with old Trumpie's "make USA grate"......the next face at the window might have a different pint of view.

I suppose you could apply for a special tax break seeing as how you are going to buy American......better be buying all your tooling branded USA too just to keep it in the club.

Come to think of it....Tormach buy all their tooling from China and just sell it on with a markup to stay in business.....hmmmmmm,..... how unpatriotic.

While your whiling away the hours to delivery day........perhaps you could compare the attributes of the Skyfire model to the Haas.......and any compromises for either package......money aside that is.
Ian.

Tormach has sales people, tech support, warehouse, in the US. They are delivered by freight in the US. Then they are used by guys here in the US, to make parts for folks in the US. Smithy does the same thing. And Novakon.

To compare a SkyFire to a HAAS is ridiculous - they each have their place. Like comparing a HAAS to a HERMLE.

[inov8r]

You guys do realize handlewanker will argue his point to his dying breath whether right or wrong. I can't believe Haas and Skyfire are even used in the same sentence or even occupy the brain at the same time.

[GITERDUN]

[QUOTE=handlewanker;2108112



Hmmmm, Tormach is ALL Chinese??...... wow, the China syndrome is alive and kicking in USA despite what Trump has dreamed up on the platform of lies and lost promises last election day.


I have ISO 20 on my mill.....

Dude,
Not sure how you missed the fact that Tormach is made in China, since you seem to be delving into every detail of someone else's purchase.
Regarding Trump, you should worry about your own back yard where your Deputy Prime Minister is a citizen of New Zealand , not Australia.

[handlewanker]

LOL.....if it's politics you want at least we didn't vote for a bleeding Hollywood cowboy look alike actor to "save" the country as ya'all did back in the 60's......LOL.

As previously said,........yeah, I knew Tormach was a foreign import that got reworked a bit ........I never could understand why people still use dovetail slides when linear rails are by far the best way to move metal.

If Tormach had really seriously re-worked their offering and cut the dovetails off in favour of linear rails......as others have done and are currently doing on other manual mills......that would have rivaled Defeng's offering and maybe put a product in the market that meant something.

With that degree of rework, despite the cost involved, Tormach would be a must have product without having to go on a waiting list and do a direct import.

If Tormach did do one like that, provided they had the means, the current model would die a natural death........tell me why not otherwise......perhaps all the cheepies and bargain hunters would still go for the cheaper model.

Dovetail slides are not the PREFERRED way I might add, no matter how many reams of paper you expend extolling the virtues of hand scraped slides and tapered gib strips........in this day and age.
Ian.

[handlewanker]

Tormach has sales people, tech support, warehouse, in the US. They are delivered by freight in the US. Then they are used by guys here in the US, to make parts for folks in the US. Smithy does the same thing. And Novakon.

To compare a SkyFire to a HAAS is ridiculous - they each have their place. Like comparing a HAAS to a HERMLE.

Perhaps they do have some outlets in the USA, but their TTS system is NOT the best way to hold cutters in a spindle......it's just one way and has drawbacks that CAN'T be overcome.

Nobody is actually comparing a Haas to a Skyfire......it's the buyer who determines that and the eventual usage he puts it to.

One of your own countrymen wanted to buy a Skfire model with all the bells and whistles etc but couldn't get the order placed.....so he plumped for the Haas as it had a 3 week delivery date........cost a bomb too but what the heck when the Devil drives.
Ian.

[GITERDUN]

LOL.....if it's politics you want at least we didn't vote for a bleeding Hollywood cowboy look alike actor to "save" the country as ya'all did back in the 60's......LOL.
Ian.

If you are referring to Ronald Reagan, he was elected in 1980 and was largely responsible for the collapse of the Soviet Union, a fact that grates on the socialists of the world to this day. BTW, it was you who started with the political talk, which really has no place on this forum, so how about posting something about what you have done lately with your machine. What exactly do you have machinery wise- Mori, Haas, Tormach, Harbor Freight 3 in1 ?

[handlewanker]

If you are referring to Ronald Reagan, he was elected in 1980 and was largely responsible for the collapse of the Soviet Union, a fact that grates on the socialists of the world to this day. BTW, it was you who started with the political talk, which really has no place on this forum, so how about posting something about what you have done lately with your machine. What exactly do you have machinery wise- Mori, Haas, Tormach, Harbor Freight 3 in1 ?

Yep I agree....even though a one liner is hardly political talk, keep politics out of the fun stuff for sure.

Meanwhile back at the ranch...... the machine I bought is a Skyfire SVM-0 model with a few options I wanted to have.

I'm a manual machinists from way back last century but wanted to learn the CNC techno and get into the CNC world etc......100% for hobby use, so Haas et al are monsters compared to the SVM-0......who needs a dump truck to do the weekly shopping....LOL.

It's all been documented at great length on the original Skyfire thread, now closed, so I won't bore everyone with details as you can look it up yourself if it's that important.
Ian..

[rx8pilot]

This conversation turned into a proper party, lol.

I made the commitment to Haas for a brand new Super Mini Mill - 15HP, 15k RPM, CAT40, chip auger, Renishaw probes, high-flow coolant, programmable coolant nozzle, HSM, and a few other options.

As others have pointed out - this machine is quite a few steps ahead of the consumer and pro-sumer options. The original reason I wanted a SkyFire is to get through prototypes, modifications and small batches. My business is a design company so prototyping is a constant struggle. The parts are all fairly small and easily fit in a SkyFire or Tormach. As I said before though - the SkyFire could be FREE but still put me out of business if it never arrives. Specs and pricing are entirely useless if the machine does not show up.

The decision to go with Haas changes the way I will use the machine. I will still do prototyping of course, but now have the ability to crank out the majority of our production needs in-house as well. The plan is to set it up with pallets and enough tool holders to change out setups in minutes while the table is totally packed with parts. This is similar to the way I used my previous Haas machines - put as many parts on the table as possible so that it can run as long as possible while I do other things. With a 15k / 15hp spindle - it REALLY shreds aluminum fast without breaking a sweat. 1200ipm rapids and 800ipm cutting is no joke. I have run a lot of programs at 400+ipm with 3/8 - 3/4" end mills. Big metal removal rates while still having the speed to use small end mills cutting tiny features.

I hardly have to use this machine to equal the cost of outsourcing proto and production work. On top of that - I was just told that our main shop can't even talk to us for at least 2 weeks becuase they are too busy. The scheduling unknowns are deadly for a small business.

Anyway - I was hoping to go small and cheap but ended up going big and expensive (in relative terms). All carbide tools, high quality balanced tool holders, 3x Kurt 3400V's with carvesmart jaws. Just the phase converter to get 3ph power is $6k. Clearly, I am planning to make a lot of chips. If the machine has an issue - Haas literally has vans loaded with typical spares that generally have a 1 day response time. All of this cost money, but it also makes money. If I were a beginner - it would be rather scary but I don't have any learning curve on this one. I have spent 10+ years owning/operating Haas machines up to to 5 axis and have a business with existing products. Still, it could fail as a business but it won't be for lack of CNC parts.

The count down has begun.......pretty excited to have this level of power at my house. Can't beat the commute.

[GITERDUN]

Congrats on your choice- with your level of experience there won't be any big surprises for you and you can get right down to work. I was just in Hannover last month for the EMO show, and Haas had a decent display, but nothing compared to Mori- who took up an entire building. No Tormach or Skyfire to be seen.

[louieatienza]

This conversation turned into a proper party, lol.

I made the commitment to Haas for a brand new Super Mini Mill - 15HP, 15k RPM, CAT40, chip auger, Renishaw probes, high-flow coolant, programmable coolant nozzle, HSM, and a few other options.

As others have pointed out - this machine is quite a few steps ahead of the consumer and pro-sumer options. The original reason I wanted a SkyFire is to get through prototypes, modifications and small batches. My business is a design company so prototyping is a constant struggle. The parts are all fairly small and easily fit in a SkyFire or Tormach. As I said before though - the SkyFire could be FREE but still put me out of business if it never arrives. Specs and pricing are entirely useless if the machine does not show up.

The decision to go with Haas changes the way I will use the machine. I will still do prototyping of course, but now have the ability to crank out the majority of our production needs in-house as well. The plan is to set it up with pallets and enough tool holders to change out setups in minutes while the table is totally packed with parts. This is similar to the way I used my previous Haas machines - put as many parts on the table as possible so that it can run as long as possible while I do other things. With a 15k / 15hp spindle - it REALLY shreds aluminum fast without breaking a sweat. 1200ipm rapids and 800ipm cutting is no joke. I have run a lot of programs at 400+ipm with 3/8 - 3/4" end mills. Big metal removal rates while still having the speed to use small end mills cutting tiny features.

I hardly have to use this machine to equal the cost of outsourcing proto and production work. On top of that - I was just told that our main shop can't even talk to us for at least 2 weeks becuase they are too busy. The scheduling unknowns are deadly for a small business.

Anyway - I was hoping to go small and cheap but ended up going big and expensive (in relative terms). All carbide tools, high quality balanced tool holders, 3x Kurt 3400V's with carvesmart jaws. Just the phase converter to get 3ph power is $6k. Clearly, I am planning to make a lot of chips. If the machine has an issue - Haas literally has vans loaded with typical spares that generally have a 1 day response time. All of this cost money, but it also makes money. If I were a beginner - it would be rather scary but I don't have any learning curve on this one. I have spent 10+ years owning/operating Haas machines up to to 5 axis and have a business with existing products. Still, it could fail as a business but it won't be for lack of CNC parts.

The count down has begun.......pretty excited to have this level of power at my house. Can't beat the commute.

A great example of how one unfortunate scenario ended up making you a decision that would likely benefit you in the near future. I ordered a SVM-0 in 2013 because a client of mine wanted me to prototype more parts in metals. I was doing very well with the Garolite parts I was cutting for him on a very regular basis. After regurgitating the run-around I was getting, my client eventually sought service elsewhere, and a 2-year relationship was lost. Then 2 years later, out of nowhere I'm contacted that my machine is back in production, and it took another 4 months or so to receive. But the damage was already done, and I segued out of running jobs to doing my own prototyping and parts. It would be a dream to have a proper VMC some day... Congrats and keep us posted!

[louieatienza]

Congrats on your choice- with your level of experience there won't be any big surprises for you and you can get right down to work. I was just in Hannover last month for the EMO show, and Haas had a decent display, but nothing compared to Mori- who took up an entire building. No Tormach or Skyfire to be seen.

Saw some vids of that show... building after building of machines... must have been crazy just getting around.

[louieatienza]

LOL.....if it's politics you want at least we didn't vote for a bleeding Hollywood cowboy look alike actor to "save" the country as ya'all did back in the 60's......LOL.

As previously said,........yeah, I knew Tormach was a foreign import that got reworked a bit ........I never could understand why people still use dovetail slides when linear rails are by far the best way to move metal.

If Tormach had really seriously re-worked their offering and cut the dovetails off in favour of linear rails......as others have done and are currently doing on other manual mills......that would have rivaled Defeng's offering and maybe put a product in the market that meant something.

With that degree of rework, despite the cost involved, Tormach would be a must have product without having to go on a waiting list and do a direct import.

If Tormach did do one like that, provided they had the means, the current model would die a natural death........tell me why not otherwise......perhaps all the cheepies and bargain hunters would still go for the cheaper model.

Dovetail slides are not the PREFERRED way I might add, no matter how many reams of paper you expend extolling the virtues of hand scraped slides and tapered gib strips........in this day and age.
Ian.

From time to time a buddy of mine hires me to run parts of a CNC'd Bridgeport clone. The dovetails slide so well, I can turn the handwheels with the tip of my pinkie finger pushing against it, yet that table must weigh a couple hundred pounds. Kitamura makes high-end machinery, and they still use box ways - all hand-scraped. If you watch a video of them you've be fascinated as to how good they are at it.

[rx8pilot]

Okuma does box ways and they are amazing machines. Linear ways are easy, but not necessarily better.



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[handlewanker]

Hi, I would imagine that if you were starting out to produce CNC mills with the size and price range of any Skyfire model.....you would be dead in the water before you got your first order if you designed your models to have dovetails or box ways.

Tell me you can't refurbish a machine with linear ways easier AND QUICKER than a worn dovetail or box way machine and with labour that has very little skill content compared to that required to work on DT's and BW's etc........it's practically a DIY week end project to do an overhaul like that.

This way of design thinking is like deciding to have ball races instead of bronze bushes for your moving components.......some very basic and modest design do have Oilite bronze bushes on their sliding ways.....so, it's horses for courses etc.
Ian.

[GITERDUN]

Saw some vids of that show... building after building of machines... must have been crazy just getting around.

Yes, It's the biggest show and a huge venue. Well organized with buses to take you from building to building- a lifesaver for my old knees that logged 10 miles in 8 hours. Mori was amazing- they even had little info kiosks set up at the airport, train station and subway. I embarrassed myself about halfway through the day when I went into a coffee shop to rest and get a cold drink. I ordered from the girl at the bar and when she brought the drink I asked how much and she gave me a funny look- Turned out it wasn't a coffee shop at all, but a "refreshment center" for Mori people and clients. The girl gave me my drink and refused any payment.