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Thread: New Spindle Design, feedback plz!

  1. #61
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    h3ndrix I was scared you might be a high school student and I was thinking "that guy, assuming you are a guy , is one talented dude"! Now you have to understand that I remember your post in the clubhouse and my answer. I am not jealous but I sure am envious of your talent and gray matter!!

    $300...I just got an email from a felow wanting to sell me a 9 hp iso 30 taper spindle for $5500 plus shipping. This design of your's is sounding better and better.

    One word of advice; if in the future you design something and want to make money from it, get a copyright on it before posting anything about it on the web, letters, faxes etc.! I have been ripped off more than once so I speak from experience.

    I have a new gunstock design that can be patented as well as an atv tire well. I won't share the designs with anyone till I get them protected.

    Mike

    No greater love can a man have than this, that he give his life for a friend.


  2. #62
    Member HuFlungDung's Avatar
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    Turmite,

    Especially don't share the ideas on a public forum. If the design is publicized before patenting, it likely cannot be patented. But, the trouble with patents is that the protection isn't free after you have the patent. Pay some now, and then pay some more later if someone wants to infringe on it.

    First you get good, then you get fast. Then grouchiness sets in.

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


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    Thx for the advice guyz,

    Luckily, in design school, protecting your work is one of the first things they teach you . On all of my images there is some small text that has my name and there is also a code in the image that has my name (a hidden watermark), ofcourse you can photoshop it out but it can always be tracked back to me thx to the watermark. On a side note, I was really not worried about this design because of wms' s "famous brand name spindle" post on this thread. As I found out from his post that what I was doing wasn't really original, but luckily I stumbled upon how the automatic tool changers work, coincidence basically. So, my design is already out there, except that you cant find anyone talking about it for some reason. I would think that any mechanic who has taken a spindle out to change the bearings or for whatever reason must have wondered how ATC worked. Anyway, back to solidworks for me...

    Thx

    H3ndriX



  4. #64
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    Is there some sort of software that places the watermark, or is it in solidworks?

    Mike

    No greater love can a man have than this, that he give his life for a friend.


  5. #65
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    Hello,

    A patent is a LICENSE to sue. Nothing more. Nothing less.

    You had better have the money to take on whoever has ripped you off in court, if you're going the "patent" route. Unless an idea is worth at least 2million bucks, a patent is a waste of time and money. The biggest downside is that the patent is based on EXPOSING your idea completely. Which makes it easy for others to design around it, using your work as a jumping off point...

    If a big company wants to use your idea, they can literally BURY you in paperwork. And you have to respond! (I know someone who had hundreds of pounds of legal paperwork dropped at his plant by a competing firm...

    Much better these days is to get your product on the market, profit from it, and move to the next product. The idea that the idea is worth a bunch just doesn't cut it these days. And selling it to someone else who will make it for you and pay royalties is unlikely at best. It DOES happen, but not nearly as often as folklore would have you believe!

    A license to sue, remember that. Because once you have the patent it is up to YOU to protect it. As others have mentioned there are also continuing fees to keep the patent in force, and ANY public disclosure will render your idea or product un patentable.

    Once you've got the patent, you have to be on the lookout AND you HAVE TO go after anyone who infringes(that you become aware of) or you can lose your patent.

    Finally, it is the claims part of the patent that is the real protection. Be sure they are written by a licensed patent atty, because poorly written claims have sucked the life out of many patents for the patent holder.

    It is a LONG way from an IDEA, to a patentable product. As Don Lancaster says, "Ideas are worth 10cents a pound in 20 bushel lots"

    There is a term used in the patent world called "reduction to practice" This means you not only have to patent your idea, you have to USE it. If someone else goes after you, and they are more successful in the marketplace, they can claim that you are not reducing your idea to practice, and potentially have your patent thrown out!

    A guy I know who is a damn fine patent atty, helped a company "break" the nautilus patent on cams in weight machines using just this principle.

    If you want an ego trip, go for the patent. Be ready to spend your time and money in court. ..

    Ballendo

    P.S. Create something for a niche market, and EXPECT it to be copied. If its good, it WILL be. Patent or not. You have to win in the MARKETPLACE, not in the court. It's not just the idea, it's the product, and moreso these days, the company behind it. Make your money by earning it in the market. (not meaning stock market, "the market" is whoever your customers are. And that's how you profit. Know your customers better than anyone else, and GIVE THEM WHAT THEY WANT. You do that and no one can touch you. And you can do that without a patent

    Is anyone familiar with how many suits microsoft "loses". They win in the market, because it doesn't matter if they lose in court. The time of court cases helps them establish their place more firmly. By the time they lose, the market is theirs. That's how the game is played...

    Another point. Patents are granted more easily nowadays, because there's no way the patent examiner can be an expert in all fields. What this means is that even if you get a patent; if someone can find "prior art"--the idea used already, or documented publicly before-- you LOSE your patent. No money back, either... And it's MORE likely nowadays that your examiner WILL miss prior art. So don;t think it's over once you've got the paper in hand!


    Originally posted by HuFlungDung
    Turmite,

    Especially don't share the ideas on a public forum. If the design is publicized before patenting, it likely cannot be patented. But, the trouble with patents is that the protection isn't free after you have the patent. Pay some now, and then pay some more later if someone wants to infringe on it.




  6. #66
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    I don't want to piss on Hendricks chips as he's done a stirling job but nothing he's done or proposed is unique. With the exception of the 3 bearing lower layout which he's admitted to copying the rest is virtually a shot of my old Beaver spindle pack.
    Ballendo points out the pitfalls of patent law and hard facts.
    The market for such as this is very limited and the cost of the paperwork will put this up by $xx.
    Getting in the market first and getting sales will do more than getting the same sales at a higher cost due to the increased cost of the paperwork.
    Often two designs can co exist by just changing one small item. Is it worth all the costs to achieve the same sales as you would have had before litigation?

    Keep the cost down and flood the market while you can and try to not make it worth while for the opposition.

    John S.



  7. #67
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    Hello,

    Well the first thing an industrial designer needs to know is what matters, and what doesn't...

    In your case money matters. Drop the radial bearing. The gilman guys are right--at the VERY high end of parts and assembly-- but where you're at and with what this is for, you're just wasting money. At least use abec5's!

    Also reduce the space above the toolholder retainer so the yellow center rod Pushes the toolholder out. leave just a bit of clearance for retainer stretch. but I'm wanting to see more like .063, maybe .093, instead of the .5 you've got drawn now...

    You've also experienced the bane of any real-world designer: feature creep. Get that mill casting back here and solve the problem you set out to solve! Besides, it will cost less and have more practical application if you DO want to sell plans/parts/kits!

    Harsh words? I'm a product designer. Consider it experienced advice

    Ballendo

    P.S. Lose the double stacked bellevilles. If you need the force, use thicker bellevilles. Fewer parts cost less money. simple truth. You don't show how the drive pulley ius mounted? This is an important part of a high speed spindle. You can LOSE ALL YOUR hard-won PRECISION with a poor drive implementation...

    I keep finding more to comment on: The screws for your drive dogs don't need to be that long. Think of the thickness of a grade8 nut... You get nearly 90% of the threadholding capability from the first 4 threads. (Std. vee threads)

    Also, you need to have some stepped areas on the spindle shaft for the bearings. As it is drawn, installing and removing bearings is gonna make a machine technician wanna kill ya! And the assembly guys are not gonna be too happy either... Nor is the machinist asked to keep a precision spindle bearing tolerance over the distance of the entire spindle!

    As far as the suggested roto-stop. Again, you've got to decide whther this is a chevy or a rolls-royce. Also remember that I said that commercial cnc machines used a solenoid/air cylinder,; that it was SIMPLE, CHEAP, AND PROVEN.

    Good design is NOT always about pushing the envelope... Great design is sometimes the result of working WITHIN an established envelope!

    Presentation looks nice, BTW! But IMO, the last "Mill casting version" was closer to "good", if the "then"suggested changes were made.

    Consider the force acting on the front bearing retainer threads when the toolchanger is activated. Will those threads hold???


    Originally posted by h3ndrix
    Turmite,

    Thank you and you are more than welcome to make it for yourself . I could probably make money of this design, but that is not my intention. Yes, I am in college, Pratt Insitute, in Brooklyn NY and I am a Industrial Design student. Now, dont ask me how a design student gets so interested in maching, because I cant really answer it, it just happened waaaay back.

    Hu,

    I dont really know if its true or not, but that is the explanation of the Gilman guys for putting that 3 bearing setup. In my head, if the angular bearings are back to back, then there cant be any radial play, but I am no engineer and their engineers must have figured out somehow that this is a optimum solution. You may very well be right, I am not at the knowledge level to argue with you about it though As long as there is no downside to this setup, it will take me an extra half hour to bore that hole for an extra bearing and it will take me about $15 in terms of cost to make it like theirs. If you really think that it will impact the design in a negative way, then I will take it out.

    Thx guyz

    H3ndriX

    Oh forgot to say: The price for now, for the whole spindle design that you see there is around $300. That includes the belleville springs, stock metals (8620, 4130 and grey iron class 40), bearing (ABEC-1 unfortunately ), timing pulley, 6 bearings, etc.




  8. #68
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    [QUOTE]Originally posted by John S.
    [B]I don't want to piss on Hendricks chips as he's done a stirling job...

    Lessee, Stirling is an engine that full of hot air...

    Did you mean sterling

    Couldn't resist, John

    B



  9. #69
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    DON'T start on me
    I had enough the other day when I posted that 2004 wasn't a leap year

    Some days aren't as good as others, some years aren't for that matter.

    John S.



  10. #70
    Member HuFlungDung's Avatar
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    Good advice, Ballendo, all of it

    I would also urge H3ndrix to go with Abec5 (or better). The heat generated by the lower class bearing he is thinking of going to, will show up very quickly when he puts some rpms on it. Its just not the right place to cut corners

    First you get good, then you get fast. Then grouchiness sets in.

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


  11. #71
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    Thx for the replies again guyz,

    I think I had enough with the patent issue , my intent was never to patent this idea or to sell it (except the plans for it maybe, heh) or to have it manufactured. I dont really give a flying f*ck if someone else wants to steal it and make millions, I wouldnt be able to sue them anyway (I cant even afford ABEC-5 bearings, how am I goona get a lawyer?). Sorry for the language , but I didn't ask for it.

    John S.,

    As you said, I didn't make something original, I did not have the intent of making something original and I am glad I didn't make something original. This way I know it will work atleast. But, I did it in an original way, I did not know about the design or how they actually worked, I just threw a guess and it was right. The bearing setup was copyed, like you said. So, there is no reason for me to be pissed, I am glad

    Ballendo,

    I cant afford ABEC-5' s, unless you know a DEFINITIVE way of getting them cheap . I have been checking on ebay...regulary.

    There is a problem with reducing the space above the retention knob, I guess you didn't notice it so lemme explain;

    When the draw bar starts coming down and the balls enter the groove, there still has to be clearence between the knob and the back of the orange piece. This is important NOT when a tool is being released, but when another tool is being picked up. When another tool is being picked up, the draw bar has to be all the way down and when the Z-axis lands on the tool, the back of the orange piece should not touch, or the tool wont seat. After the z-axis is done and the tool seated, then the draw bar will be pulled up. Then the tool will be locked. Right now, my draw bar is controlled in two levels, on first lelvel, the balls engage the groove, the second level, the tool is kicked out with the darw ba coming down even more and right after, the draw bar is returned to the first level to pick up another tool. I will make a small animation later on to explain this better.

    There is a remedy, but it is complicated and costly;

    If the draw bar push and pull are controlled by a precisie actuator, then the back of the orange piece can be flush with the knob, or have a small clearence. When the Z-axis is picking up a tool, the landing of the spindle nose on the new tool and the pulling up of the draw bar can be controlled at the same time, precisely, then it can be done.

    another remedy;

    low and wide springs, placed under each tool in the auto tool changing magazine, so when the spindle nose comes down to pick one up, the spring pushes the tool against the nose of the spindle. Its a complicated design, but it will work.

    As you can see, I have thought about it...thats why the clearence...

    Like I said, the mill casting isnt solving a problem at this stage, I dont even want to think about how nicely it was machined in china. Besides, its not cheaper, I actually dont know what I was thinking when I bought it...

    The reason they are parallel stacked is because the spindle WMS showed had them that way, you re saying thats not right?...

    You cant see the way the pulley is mounted because it is on the side that I did not cut.

    The screw on the drive dogs are to the specification given by ANSI and ISO, which you will find in the machinery's handbook 26th edition page 970...

    You are right about the front nose part, which Hu pointed out, which I am working on.

    thx



  12. #72
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    h3ndrix I apologize to you if I offended you about the patent thing. It's just that I have had it to happen so many times.......and it still stings pretty bad. My intent was to offer you thanks for doing this and posting it here because it is going to help so many of the DIY guys.

    I am just curious as to how much those ABEC-5 bearings cost? I guess I will have to do a search since I don't even know what they are. All I ask is that you keep on with this thing till you get it done our satisfaction!

    Sorry....I just couldn't resist!!


    Mike

    No greater love can a man have than this, that he give his life for a friend.


  13. #73
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    No, turmite, I am not mad at you at all. I think it was a good point and the point was made I just didn't want this thread to turn into something else where people got into arguements about how much they know about patenting or copyrighting.

    What I am getting through this thread is very beneficial to me and it has really helped a lot. I just don't like the fact that some people have a tendency to think they know more than other people and try to prove it just by writing a thread and not really thinking about what that idea brings with it.

    I accept the fact that I am probably the youngest person on this forum, but thats not really saying much about my experiences, skills, talent or knowledge...

    thx

    H3ndriX



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    No, turmite, I am not mad at you at all. I think it was a good point and the point was made I just didn't want this thread to turn into something else where people got into arguements about how much they know about patenting or copyrighting


    Amen,

    EDIT:
    While I thought the referenced post were accurate, well meaning and designed to be helpful, I felt it was getting way to serious, this forum is supposed to be fun, educational and above all not a springboard for proving a point or defending a position, else it turn into being just like most every other forum.

    Last edited by Ken_Shea; 02-28-2004 at 10:58 PM.


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    h3ndrix,

    right on, right on, right on!


    Your design has elloquence and is well thought out. You've made good use of the advice you've been given so get on with building it. And use good bearings! Sell something on ebay if ya hafta but don't make the mistake of having to buy lots of cheap bearings. (been there, done that, darn)

    "If the draw bar push and pull are controlled by a precisie actuator, then the back of the orange piece can be flush with the knob, or have a small clearence. When the Z-axis is picking up a tool, the landing of the spindle nose on the new tool and the pulling up of the draw bar can be controlled at the same time, precisely, then it can be done." -yew

    This is exactly how its done on my boss' columbo... exactly how I'll do it on #2 someday and I'll be looking closely at yer illustration when I'm machining mine!

    Doug

    oh ya, remember the taper roller race I emailed you about. Maybe a little overkill but it won't wear out... proly ever!



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    Hey lsfoils,

    I dont think I got your email, can you send me another copy, thank you

    H3ndriX



  17. #77
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    Nope,

    There's a 14 year old and a 15 year old I've seen posts from...

    Ballendo

    Thank you for the explanation re the space above the retention knob. And no, I wasn't saying the parallel bellevilles was wrong, just pointing out a design choice which could save you some money... I thought you were looking for feedback.

    And somewhere I got the idea this was for a minimill. Am I mistaken? Because making everything to the specs of a larger, higher powered machine is a sure way to spend more than you have to. And therefore not having the money for the KEY elements, which in this case ARE the bearings...

    But if you prefer, I'll just bow out of this thread. I already know how to build a spindle and toolchanger. Good luck in your project.

    One of my favorite quotes, especially apropo for a designer, IMO

    "It is unwise to pay too much, but it is worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money - that is all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do.

    The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot... it cannot be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder it is well to add something for the risk you run; and if you do that you will have enough to pay for the something better.

    There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only, are this man's lawful prey."

    By John Ruskin (1819-1900)



    Originally posted by h3ndrix
    I accept the fact that I am probably the youngest person on this forum, but thats not really saying much about my experiences, skills, talent or knowledge...

    thx

    H3ndriX




  18. #78
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    Hendrix, I wanted to |BUMP| this thread... have you worked any more on the spindle design? This is one of my favorite threads on the zone and I have been utterly fascinated by all the comments and expertise. It is like a dozen guys at a table discussing and designing one of my favorite machine tool parts, the all-important spindle.

    For a year now I have searched for a spindle that can do QC tooling, has decent accuracy, and doesn't cost $3,000.

    Thanks to all who contributed.



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    Hey swede,

    I just wanted the thread to relax a little after the seeing that a little tension was building up.

    I have news on my progress and I will post it later tonight when I am off work

    Thx,

    H3ndriX



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    I said I post last night, but got of work at 4 AM and was kinda tired by that time, so here is a late post.

    I have been working on the arbor which holds the belleville washers for the automatic tool changer. I was able to get the washers from mcmaster, relatively cheap, and install them in the way that they have in high-end machines. I was also able to get an actuator, for up and down motion, that has a relay switch built into it. It is controlled with 24V relays that I can basically hook to a I/O port on the motion controller (that I dont have yet )

    Here is a movie file and some images of the test setup that I did on a spining/woodwork lathe that we got at work;






    And Here is the movie of it working;


    http://www.1turk.org/cnc/actuator.avi

    There are I believe 100 washers in that setup, which should give me enough holding power, but I might go down to about 90 after I talk to someone who will actually do the calculations for me on how much holding power that would be.

    Thats all for now

    Thx,

    H3ndriX



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New Spindle Design, feedback plz!

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