What is the best 3D CAM Software?

[Geof]

blah blah blah.....And I'm an amateur, but, even so,.....blah blah blah

You admit you are an amateur but you seem to think you are qualified to tell people who do machining for a living how they should do things???????

[dertsap]

there are a lot of people buying and using cnc's who don t have a clue of what theyve got in front of them a 10,000 dollar machine is a toy ,
the machine and the software is only as good as the guy using it period . we just went thru a hotshot mastercam programmer i was ready to kill , try explaining to some moron why you can t plunge a 3/4" endmill .5 deep into a 4140 $ 5000 part with tons of time thats been spent on it ,i can go into a huge rant over clowns who learn a piece of software that have never cut a chip in their life , people tend to think its a magic ,the magical software creates the magical toolpath and the magical metal eating box spits out a perfect part , nothing hard about that , hobby is one thing but a professional is a professional , which means finding the most optimal economical process of creating a good part , choice of tooling , forsight into future problems between operations ,tool breakage , chatter etc ,etc , and there is no piece of software that will give you that , we rarely have spare setup pieces it s done right the first time or your the idiot of the day if not longer ,
what really kills me is how people tend to minimalize the expertise it takes in this profession , you can have the best software the best tools the best machine , if you don t have the skill ,youve got JACK

[joecnc1234]

So where do you fit in dertsap?? If you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem???? Right Ive been programming for 15 yrs and I can't tell you how many times an operator came up to me and said "you forgot to turn the coolant on" any operator who calls anyone a "clown" is a no good loser who can't program or supervise or they would be doing it.... "those that can, program those that can't run machines" My Quote of the day..........
front you're experience on me I expect it, you are the typical operator you have you're PHD push here dummy.
Joe

[dertsap]

for one i supervise , number two is i do program , and if you think i dont catch the problems before they happen then you are more of an idiot than you come across as
you like come across as a pro what do you think of people minimizing the work that you do as simple anyone can do it with a piece of software

[dertsap]

if youd like to know what started me into this rant is ive got another so called "machinist" some hot sh@ from back east ,apparently run huge machines big jobs , today i asked him to program on the machine a simple 6" counterbore with a rougher and finisher and to add an upper and lower chamfer , he told me he couldn t do it , but he could do it on the mastercam quickly , i was quick to put him on production ,
clowns ? ya i think so

i'm not trying to knock anyone ,only the half baked idea that the software solves everything , the programmer needs to create a suitable toolpath to suit the application for it to work and if a programmer never cut a chip or cant understand the code how can he provide a quality program that doesn t need hours of editing at the machine , if not whats the point

by the way i voted mastercam

[JROM]

I once hired a guy with 20 years experance from a big arospace company. The first job I gave him was to modify some alu. parts All he had to do was put the parts in the vise and mill .1 off one end. Simple right? Well about 15 mins later one of my other guys comes and says "you better go see what the new guy is doing" So out of my ofice I go to check it out. I found the guy on a Bridgport mill with a counterbore in a drill chuck trying to do an side cut on the alu. parts. He was out the door in ten mins.
I have to agree with Dertsap. You are trying to get the good stuff without putting in the time to learn the trade. Just because you want it, dosen't make it happen. If you don't know what your doing, all the software and CNC machines in the world won't get you there. Go back to your books and hire someone to make your parts for you or just waste your money on broken tools and junk parts.

[JROM]

I Voted Mastercam Also
235,000 Seats Can't Be Wrong!

[Geof]

.... "those that can, program those that can't run machines" My Quote of the day..........Joe

Good quote but there is a better one; "Those that can program and run machines do both better than any of the others".

And I suggest you read dertsap's posts, not just in this thread but in other threads. Go through them carefully even if you have to hold your finger on the line and move your lips. Then tell me do you really think he is a P.H.D.?

[dertsap]

thanks Geof

i'm sure joe and his 20 yr old matsurra he's always spouting off about will go far , a real charm to work for i'm sure

[ckm]

You admit you are an amateur but you seem to think you are qualified to tell people who do machining for a living how they should do things???????

Again, I never said that. I just made an observation on the state of CAM software as I see it. Attacking me does not change my observation about it. And I'm not telling anyone to do anything. Personally, I couldn't give a sh*t less what people do or if they are being unproductive.

Besides, I don't think I'm qualified to do anything other than what I know, and even then, I don't know much. But the whole attitude around machining as expressed by your statement reminds of the computer industry in the mid-80's and CAM software is basically designed to cater to that.

That's what I was trying to point out, but instead I get attacked & dismissed as a 'bozo', 'nooby', 'unqualified'. What's the point of having a medium to discuss stuff if no one can express anything but mainstream opinion?

Besides, I seem to have touched a sore point around 'qualified machinist' vs automation and that is a good discussion.

Chris.

[ckm]

You are trying to get the good stuff without putting in the time to learn the trade. Just because you want it, dosen't make it happen. If you don't know what your doing, all the software and CNC machines in the world won't get you there. Go back to your books and hire someone to make your parts for you or just waste your money on broken tools and junk parts.

And that attitude is just part of the problem. What usually happens to people when confronted with this sort of statement is that they give up, and then you wonder why you can't find any qualified machinists anymore.

Besides, I don't need to make a living machining, I just do it to support a hobby. And, luckly, after starting 5 companies in the last 20 years, I have more money than sense, so I'm not easily discouraged by people like you.

At any rate, none of that actually solves the problem of unproductive software.

Chris.

[ckm]

the programmer needs to create a suitable toolpath to suit the application for it to work and if a programmer never cut a chip or cant understand the code how can he provide a quality program that doesn t need hours of editing at the machine , if not whats the point

That's a common problem in a lot of software, but there are ways of producing expert systems that rely on 'best practices'. I'm not saying it's easy, but I think that moving some of the machinists knowledge back into the software at some level would be useful in helping avoid the problem you are describing. That's exactly what I was getting at, really.

Chris.

[dertsap]

That's a common problem in a lot of software, but there are ways of producing expert systems that rely on 'best practices'. I'm not saying it's easy, but I think that moving some of the machinists knowledge back into the software at some level would be useful in helping avoid the problem you are describing. That's exactly what I was getting at, really.

Chris.

a generic tool library can be created and thats it , everyone has their own approach and opinion on how the want a part machined , be it due varuous experience , tools on hand , fixturing on hand ,and the machine , end result is there are many ways to produce a part , its impossible to wrap it up into a software package

as for machinist vs automation , automation and software are the tools of a machinist

[Chuckie]

I guess I'm the only one that uses AlphaCam. Dang and I thought it was a good package for the Router.

[Geof]

Again, I never said that......Chris.

This is what you reply to my post that started with:

"You admit you are an amateur but you seem to think you are qualified...."

However a few posts earlier you had made this statement:

[/I]"...And I'm an amateur, but, even so, it's highly likely that I'll purchase a small VMC in the next 2-3 years....."[/I]

So are we both using the same language and assigning the same meaning to the same words?

To quote you further:

"What's the point of having a medium to discuss stuff if no one can express anything but mainstream opinion?"

There is no point at all having a medium to discuss stuff if some of the participants cannot even remember what they have previously stated.

However, I will agree with the more money than sense comment; it would not need much money.

[JROM]

OK................I want to say I'm sorry if you think I was trying to put you off of your quest. But I think your giong about backassward. My advice to you is to bye some manual machines and start to learn how things get machined.
You see over the years I have met so many folks who think you just put it in the machine, push some buttons and out pops a finished part. I have had kids just out of a six week school come and apply for my job thinking they had it all figured out! In six weeks! I also think that the people who write the CAM software have a good feel for what the guys out there are looking for.
I think that what you see when you look at the software is a lack of fundemental information, but the experenced guy dosen't miss that because he already knows. I think you are somewhat putting the cart before the horse. I was not trying to hurt your feelings but your mind set is one of the things that is hurting the trade. No one wants to spend the time to learn from the bottom up any more, everyone wants to start at the top. I have been a tool and die maker for 31 years and got my first CNC mill in 1983. It might say chipsweeper under my name but I prefer "Wagonwheels" you know round and round thru the Sh............t I got my first CAD CAM system in 1984 and take my word for it they have improved 600% Also look at a system that is driven with a parametric logic, that might be more of the invironment your looking for. Did not mean to ruffle your feathers good luck with your search.

[JROM]

I guess I can wrap this up by saying that everone that has spent any time in a machine shop has had the experence of struggling with a problem and having someone walk up and solve it in a snap because they had the same problem 20 years ago! That is the intangable that everyone misses. And I'm sorry to say I don't think you can find the answer in software, not yet anyway. There are just to many things to take into consideration when setting up a job for the software to take into consideration. So there still needs to be someone at the wheel. Look at pro-E software. By parametric I mean that once you make a certain type of part you can apply all of the parameters from that part to any part you make after. This might help you out. Maybe you could have a programer run thru a few different kinds of parts and you could just monkey see monkey do from there. It might get you up and running faster. Good luck

[ckm]

Look at pro-E software. By parametric I mean that once you make a certain type of part you can apply all of the parameters from that part to any part you make after. This might help you out. Maybe you could have a programer run thru a few different kinds of parts and you could just monkey see monkey do from there. It might get you up and running faster. Good luck

I have a copy of ProE, actually, and I like SolidWorks better. I tried Rhino, but the fact that it's not parametric drove me nuts, funny enough. I don't know how anyone designs anything serious in Rhino, but I think it may come down to a matter of personal preference/workstyle rather than the software itself.

Chris.

[Geof]

..... I don't think that software can do everything for you, but it can give you a good starting point. Look a drug interaction systems used by doctors and pharmacies. Do they do the thinking for you? No, but they can guide you to a usefull conclusion, but perhaps you'd rather that your pharmacist just remember that this drug interacts with that one....

.....Not everyone can know everything, and having guidance is often needed......Chris.

It is difficult to dig out exactly what you are getting at in your arguments. In the quote above from several posts back you say having guidance is often needed...which is perfectly correct and the guidance to use the aoftware comes from the user's experience.

Take your drug interaction system: Who uses it? They are not people who do not have education and experience in the field; they are professionals who have put in a good many years acquiring the knowledge which means they know what queries to put into the expert system and, much more importantly, they know enough to know when they have gone beyond the bounds of the system and cannot rely on the guidance provided.

In what way is this different to the training and experiential requirements that are implicit in many of the opinions expressed in this thread.

You yourself are a software engineer, you probably uses system designed to assist in preparing code, can a total novice who has never coded, has poor math skills, doesn't know anything about binary, Boolean logic or all the stuff that goes into how software works, use these systems without a fairly intensive learning process?

I rather doubt that the answer to my question is yes but you seem to have the attitude that a total novice should be able to simply get some software systems and then starting flawlessly running a CNC machine without any background training and experience whatsoever.

[ckm]

This is what you reply to my post that started with:

"You admit you are an amateur but you seem to think you are qualified...."

However a few posts earlier you had made this statement:

[/i]"...And I'm an amateur, but, even so, it's highly likely that I'll purchase a small VMC in the next 2-3 years....."[/i]

So are we both using the same language and assigning the same meaning to the same words?

Wait, does that mean that buying a VMC automatically turn me into some sort of authority? Or that just because I know all the right jargon I'm claiming to be an expert? All I was pointing out is that, for a certain segment of the market, machining has gotten cheap enough that a large number of 'inexperienced bozos' are buying what was once 'professional' equipment. It's not really an unusual trend, it's happened in just about every technology driven industry.

I hardly see how that equates to me claiming to being qualified to speak with authority about anything. The thing I was pointing out, and continue to point out, is that even the most expensive tools don't really help guide operators through complex operations, they assume you know everything.

I never said that I was qualified to address the needs of professionals who use this stuff, I merely pointed out what I found when _I_ looked at these tools.

Look at my original post here http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=334233&postcount=71

The thread was about the _best_ CAM software, something which depends largely on how you work, what you work on and how much you know. I gave an opinion that I made _very clear_ was from my own needs and point of view.

You yourself are a software engineer, you probably uses system designed to assist in preparing code, can a total novice who has never coded, has poor math skills, doesn't know anything about binary, Boolean logic or all the stuff that goes into how software works, use these systems without a fairly intensive learning process?

Actually, the software business has made huge efforts to make systems far more accessible to people than ever before. Visual programming systems are not all that uncommon and intergrated development environments help guide developers through complex coding. Newer technologies like object oriented programming, macros and HTML have made programming accessible to huge parts of the general population. Granted, a lot of it has resulted in a lot of ugly stuff (e.g. MySpace), but still. There are even whole systems for automated code generation that are mandated by companies to insure code consistency...

And that's exactly the paradigm I'm coming from when I look at CAM systems, which seem to be stuck on catering only to expert operators, much like programming was 20 years ago.

Look, I'm not trying to say that more automation is a solution to everything, but, like Dannystoolblue point out upthread, there are a lot of circumstances where standardizing operations would be good. Combined with JROM's comments on new people in the workforce (see below), there would seem to be a space for some innovation and improvement.

JROM:

You see over the years I have met so many folks who think you just put it in the machine, push some buttons and out pops a finished part. I have had kids just out of a six week school come and apply for my job thinking they had it all figured out! In six weeks!

See, I actually think that this problem is just going to get much, much worse, esp. as fewer people want to learn these technical trades. Perhaps there is a place here for software that can accomodate these kids (yes, I realize that's not the best solution). At the same time it would cater to places that want to use CNC systems, but it's not part of their core business.

I also think that the people who write the CAM software have a good feel for what the guys out there are looking for.

Maybe not. If the state of the industry is such that the norm for new machinists is six weeks of poor training and they are catering to people with 10 years of experience, maybe there is a gap. I don't know, but I think it's an interesting subject. It's certainly a gap that the expensive CAM systems fail to fill, and that was my point.

Chris.
P.S. Just as an aside, we should be so lucky in the software business to have people who are even slightly productive after 4 years of college. Most of the best programmers are, in fact, largely self-taught.... And a lot of them nowdays learn it while they are in highschool (not at highschool, mind you).