Tree JM 425

[offlander]

Recently came into possession of a Journeyman 425. Appears to be in decent shape (everything works) and after firing it up and doing a few sample cuts it looks to still be holding good tolerance and very minimal backlash. It was in this testing process I became familiar with the Dynapath 40 by Autocon. After using it for a few hours, im going to be replacing it. I'm sure it was a solid control and cutting edge in 1996 but it lacks some pretty standard features in 2020. After reading the 3 instruction manuals it came with, I can see why people like it, but everything from the 5.5" display, that fact its only 2.5D, the 25-pin D-type connector to get programs in and out, all draw backs I'd like to correct. The last nail in the coffin was (see attached) there is very little in the way of options turned on. From reading about others experiences on this and other forums, Dynapath still wants considerable dollars to activate features on a machine that is pushing 25 years of age. I'd like to scrap the Dynapath (sell it if I could) and replace it with something else.

***Start of question***
If you were going to replace the control on a Tree Journeyman 425 what controller would you be looking at.
The Yaskawa vfd and the Baldore servos and servo drive all seem to be working and in good order, are they salvageable in an upgrade?

[machinehop5]

The attachment didn't show up. But, as long as you have "BUFFERED INPUT" you could hookup to a PC to do programming.

I think the 40/50/60 Autocon's were all 3D controls...(Thread Milling)

[offlander]

I didn't see the minimum file attachment size, oops
Link to the options image

https://imgur.com/a/ZjT6Jib

The "buffered Input" is not an enabled option unfortunately on this machine. Whats worse, neither is floppy disk or hard drive are enabeled, making for very few ways to communicate with this controller or store data.

[Jim Dawson]

A Centroid Oak system would work well on that machine, and use the existing servos & drives.

[offlander]

Would the Centroild OAK allow me to get encoder feedback on all 3 axis? The reason I'm asking is I see the OAK board has 2 encoder ports? If at all possible I'd like to keep the feedback as its the only DRO this machine has.

[Muzzer]

Presumably the encoders you refer to are the encoders in the servo motors. If so, they are reporting the positions of the motors, not the table. However, the controller DRO display and the actual position should be in close agreement - and it's how most systems were set up. You can generally set up the servo drives to indicate if the motors are out of position by a configurable error.

I would expect the servo drives to use step and direction rather than analog (+/-10V) position controls, so most modern controllers would be compatible.

Given the above (and assuming I am correct), you could manage with a Centroid Acorn instead of the older and more expensive Oak.

[Jim Dawson]

Would the Centroild OAK allow me to get encoder feedback on all 3 axis? The reason I'm asking is I see the OAK board has 2 encoder ports? If at all possible I'd like to keep the feedback as its the only DRO this machine has.

The OAK has 6 encoder inputs, one for each servo and 2 aux inputs. Which servo drives do you have? The other option is the All in 1 DC system.

EDIT: I am assuming that your servos are brushed DC motors. If they are AC servos, then the OAK will still work, just uses a different cable, check with Centroid on that.

[offlander]

The Servo Drive is a Baldor UM4-150-2-03S, and the Servos are Baldor MTE-4535-SPECIAL. Pictures of the nameplates on the equipment. https://imgur.com/a/B2iRWtg
I believe they are brushed, DC servos. Would I still be able to use the Baldor Servo Drive with the OAK?

The Baldor pin-outs on the controller card in my machine look like this https://imgur.com/a/D1BXzXL
Currently its using the Differential, Signal Input, Tach +, Tach -, Common, and Reset pins on the controller card

And the pin-outs on the OAK controller look like this https://imgur.com/a/En1oL2Y

I apologize because I realize this is likely a simple question, but how dose one connect the Baldor servo drive to the OAK axis control? The Tach +, Tach -, and Common wires are about the only ones that makes since to me.

[Jim Dawson]

Without further research, I think the connections to the Oak card are Signal Input, Reset, and Common, corresponding to Analog Request, Enable and +5V Return. The tach connections go directly to the motors and remain on the Baldor drives. I'm unclear as to what the Differential does and it may only be required when using a differential input, this is not common.

Then of course the machine encoders would connect to the matching Oak pins.

I will look into this a bit deeper later.

[machinehop5]

Whats worse, neither is floppy disk or hard drive are enabled, making for very few ways to communicate with this controller or store data.

It's easy to add both if, you have floppy drive and ribbon cable for it. You would also need a AT type cable Keyboard to get into BIOS. I also bet you can get the RS232 Comm port to PC working without the Buffing option. You didn't say how much Part Program memory you have...I'm guessing 192k was standard which is s fair amount. So, if the machine is running why break it...is my thought.

My two cents.


PS- I think these machines used resolvers for feedback ..thats the Differential thing I think is being talked about. Easy to check or quick photo

[Jim Dawson]

I was able to find the Baldor manual. http://www.xermac.com/documents/Bald...ies_Manual.pdf

https://www.centroidcnc.com/download...all_manual.pdf

So the connections are:

Baldor Card......................... OAK
Pin 2 Common------------- +5V Return
Pin 4 Sig Input------------- Analog Request
Jumper P2, jump pins 2 & 3, sets for Single Ended Input rather than differential

Pin 15 Reset--------------- Enable, This may require a relay between the devices to invert the logic, not sure what the output signal looks like from the Oak.

And as I said above, encoders to matching pins on the Oak connecter.

That's all there is to it. Overall, pretty simple.

[slodat]

Oak will work if your original servo drives are good. AllIn1DC will power your original motors and eliminate the original drives.

I have the same mill, but with Delta 20 control. I’m replacing the motors with DMM 1.3kw AC servos and Centroid Acorn. Closed loop between the servo and drive. Open loop step and direction between the controller and the drive. I’ve done extensive testing and have not found this combo to lose steps.

[offlander]

I believe you are correct, I have 192KB of working memory that is activated. My main drive to upgrade the controller is the ease of use/quality of life factor. Using the Dynapath has been frustrating for me so far because of my perceived user interface limitations. I know its a powerful controller, and reading through the instruction manuals (it came with three) its clear that much thought and care was put into the process. But every time I try to use it, I get the strange nostalgic feeling like I'm programing a VCR from the early 90s, everything from the mono-color iridescent green display, to the menu navigation system that somehow has no arrow keys and that one button that does everything. To that end I fully admit it is my laziness driving this upgrade. On a more technical note the other reason is, when anything breaks on the controls side (servo, control unit, CRT display, interface buttons/switches, relays) I have no schematics to track down the problem, and when I do find the problem, I will be relying on Ebay to get replacement parts, and then the kindness of strangers on the internet for instructions on how to install them. I do in general agree with you though, if its not broke don't fix it.

[offlander]

I was able to find the Baldor manual. http://www.xermac.com/documents/Bald...ies_Manual.pdf

https://www.centroidcnc.com/download...all_manual.pdf

So the connections are:

Baldor Card......................... OAK
Pin 2 Common------------- +5V Return
Pin 4 Sig Input------------- Analog Request
Jumper P2, jump pins 2 & 3, sets for Single Ended Input rather than differential

Pin 15 Reset--------------- Enable, This may require a relay between the devices to invert the logic, not sure what the output signal looks like from the Oak.

And as I said above, encoders to matching pins on the Oak connecter.

That's all there is to it. Overall, pretty simple.

Thank you Jim for looking that up for me! I very much appreciate your wisdom on the matter.

[slodat]

I have had great success getting things I've needed from ZPS. Bob is awesome, very responsive and knowledgeable on these machines. They seem to have a lot of parts around for them as well. With that said, a modern control is a complete game changer. I highly recommend it! I'm doing one right now. I'm happy to help where I'm able.

[offlander]

Oak will work if your original servo drives are good. AllIn1DC will power your original motors and eliminate the original drives.

I have the same mill, but with Delta 20 control. I’m replacing the motors with DMM 1.3kw AC servos and Centroid Acorn. Closed loop between the servo and drive. Open loop step and direction between the controller and the drive. I’ve done extensive testing and have not found this combo to lose steps.

I have been looking over the Acorn as well as I just learned about Centroid's available options (thanks @Jim Dawson). The potential drawback I see to the Acorn is there is no encoder feed back on the XYZ axises and as the machine has no scales, so then you are left with no passive DRO capability, only active positioning to infer position. Do you think the Allin1dc will drive the existing servos? It seems to be right at the limit of its capabilities.

[slodat]

Yes, the Allin1DC will drive the servos just fine. I was about to order the Allin1DC and decided to go with Acorn. You aren't moving the axis with manual handwheels, so I don't see the DRO concern. Acorn is open loop, and a significant amount of money left. If I want closed loop in the future I could go with Oak. The software unlocks for Acorn are a lot less money than their closed loop controls. I've been running it on my router for almost two years. Very happy with it. Looks like most of my parts will be here tomorrow.

[offlander]

Yes, the Allin1DC will drive the servos just fine. I was about to order the Allin1DC and decided to go with Acorn. You aren't moving the axis with manual handwheels, so I don't see the DRO concern. Acorn is open loop, and a significant amount of money left. If I want closed loop in the future I could go with Oak. The software unlocks for Acorn are a lot less money than their closed loop controls. I've been running it on my router for almost two years. Very happy with it. Looks like most of my parts will be here tomorrow.

You make a good point. With no hand wheels you wouldn't exactly need the information. I mean it would be nice to have the encoder feedback but the price difference of about $2200 between the two units is desirable. If you wouldn't mind sharing, would you provide the links to your servos and drives?

[DavidCao]

hi Tree JM 425
I have read your article.
I wonder if we can cooperate?
I have been a CNC engineer for over 10 years (specializing in ladders, repairs, set ups, upgrades of Fanuc and Mitsubishi CNC machines, manual folding robot control)
I currently live in Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam.
If you have requirements related to software, ladders, programming and upgrading, you can contact me via email:
ngoctuyen250@gmail.com
Or What's app: +84989499990

Regards,
David Cao

[slodat]

The price for AllIn1DC is $3300 unless you already have 2000 count encoders. Mine had 500 line encoders on the Baldor servos. I’m using DMM DHT-A15 1.3kW NEMA42 AC servos and their DYN4-T01 drive. Pricing is on their page. I ordered my motors Thursday and they will be here tomorrow. DMM sells a cable for Acorn and Oak. I recommend using their cable. In addition to the Acorn board I also will be using the digitizing software bundle, 1616 I/O expansion and wireless MPG.