4th Axis Contouring or only Indexing

[jttoner]

Is the Tormach 4th Axis limited to indexing?

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[shred]

Is the Tormach 4th Axis limited to indexing?

Which Tormach and which 4th were you thinking of? I've only worked with two of each, but they've been able to do contouring (engraving on cylinders, cutting while turning, etc). Many CAD/CAM packages force you to get upgrades to do full 4th axis work however.

[awerby]

The most cost-effective 4th axis CAM software is DeskProto, which offers various different options for 4th axis 3D toolpaths as well as indexing. Hobbyists get even better pricing. We sell it for the same price in dollars as it lists for in Euros.

[popspipes]

This sounds interesting! I use Sprutcam 7 and have for almost 10 years, it does what I need it to do, but it isnt always easy to get the job done.

[kstrauss]

There are several comments from early 2020 in the user forum on your website regarding adaptive toolpaths being desirable but nothing on their implementation. What is the current state of adaptive paths in DeskProto? Is there a free trial version of the full product?.

[awerby]

What website are you referring to? I don't have a user forum on computersculpture.com. I looked in the DeskProto forum and didn't see anything about adaptive toolpaths. There was some mention of it in the Vectric forum; is that what you're thinking of?

What exactly are adaptive toolpaths? I'm not exactly understanding how they differ from regular waterline toolpaths.

There is a demo version you can download. It puts "watermarks" on the projects, but functions well enough to get the idea of how the program works.

[kstrauss]

I assumed that DeskProto was your product since you mentioned it in your initial post. If you go to https://www.deskproto.com/forum/forum-search.php and search for "adaptive" you get several hits. I am a mostly happy Vectric user but their lack of any adaptive toolpaths is a serious consideration leading me to search for different CAM software.

From the F360 site:
"The Adaptive toolpath strategy is commonly referred to as High Speed Machining (HSM). High Speed Machining involves taking a lighter width of cut (side cut), a longer depth of cut and creating toolpath motion that flows. ... The result is smooth fluid motion that keeps the machine from jerking between moves."

[awerby]

The concept still seems a bit vague to me. If you take a regular waterline toolpath and do it faster and deeper, wouldn't that be "adaptive"? Or is there something else about it that I'm missing?

[kstrauss]

My understanding of "waterline" is that it is at constant depth from the previous pass. If so, the axial engagement would vary depending on the slope of the surface being contoured. Note that adaptive clearing is applicable for both 2.5d and 3d work.

[jwatte]

"Adaptive" is about how the tool moves sideways into the cut, much more than how it steps in Z.
"Adaptive" is a form of "trochoidal" tool path generators, and the general idea is to:
1. Take deep cuts axially
2. Take shallow cuts radially
3. Make sure that cuts "ease in" and "easy out" radially, so that there's not a sudden shock to the cutter

When you tune these so you're not quite at tool breakage, you can cut much more aggressively (in material removal rates) than you could do with a "conventional" tool path. With conventional, you can dial in #1 and #2 on the list, but the tool path generator knows nothing about #3.

Note that there really are two intersecting concerns here:
- How closely do I match the desired pocket/shape?
- How do I plan tool movement to get high MRR with low tool breakage?

Technically, a "waterline" strategy plans out how to match the pocket, and could generate an adaptive, or a conventional, tool path. (And "conventional" here doesn't mean "as opposed to climb cutting" -- both "adaptive" and "conventional" paths can use "climb" or "conventional" cutting direction. But I recommend climbing.) In your particular tool, they may use "waterline" to mean just the conventional pocket generator, though -- I don't know about that in particular.

[awerby]

Thanks, that makes more sense to me. So essentially, we're talking about ramping into the cut sideways, as well as vertically? That doesn't sound so hard to do. If that feature was added to an ordinary waterline toolpath, would it then be considered adaptive? Would it also have to be deep and fast, or are those parts just for HSM?

[joeavaerage]

Hi,
the 4th and 5th axis extensions for Fusion 360 are $1600USD/year normally and about $1146USD/year as an introductory offer. Given that Fusion is $495USD/year normally you can see
that the 4th and 5th axis extensions are not cheap.

There is no mention of HSM toolpaths for Fusion at all, yet I believe Autodesk do have HSM capability....so it surprises me that its not offered.

Craig

[joeavaerage]

Hi,
8 years I had access to Mastercam which had one of the early HSM modules. I experimented with it at the time, and very groovy it is! To take advantage of it
you need a very fast machine with high accelerations as HSM toolpaths are for ever moving and changing is an almost sinuous manner, fascinating.
With such a machine despite taking very small seeming light-weight cuts it could remove MORE metal than a more conventional toolpath.
No bloody good at all with our converted Bridgeport clone.

Craig

[shred]

Hi,
the 4th and 5th axis extensions for Fusion 360 are $1600USD/year normally and about $1146USD/year as an introductory offer. Given that Fusion is $495USD/year normally you can see
that the 4th and 5th axis extensions are not cheap.

There is no mention of HSM toolpaths for Fusion at all, yet I believe Autodesk do have HSM capability....so it surprises me that its not offered.

Craig

Fusion does have HSM toolpaths (look under "adaptive"). As usual for CAD/CAM, you get more of them the more you pay, but I think even the 'regular' version has a couple.

[joeavaerage]

Hi,

Fusion does have HSM toolpaths (look under "adaptive").

Kool, I'll have to look closer. My new mill has the acceleration and speed that they would pay off, although I would guess I have more immediate demand
for 4th and 5th axis extensions.

Craig