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  1. #21
    Member mountaindew's Avatar
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    Default Re: Grid O' Holes

    Quote Originally Posted by Superman View Post
    Oh you poor tormach guys...
    Nothing is simple from the kitty kat.
    I will also take your word for it.
    I understood what he was talking about and I have a good idea of what it takes to machine with 5 axis plus type strategies and machines. I just have no experience with tool frame programming or other 5+ axis program setups. But I do know how to read and understand systems well beyond a normal 3 or 4 axis machines that 95% of the world uses everyday. And I did not want confuse people that use 3 axis machines that often rely on the simple methods I detailed.
    Anyway I'm thinking my next machine - step in skill building is to go past 4 axis and jump to robot 6 plus axis programs with as I mentioned tool frame or other strategy the machine uses to find its way.
    Its all good and fun. Keep learning and building skills. Lol I have also been researching quilt making recently for new custom tool paths and textures.
    You just dont know where you can find new ideas to add to your craft.



  2. #22

    Default Re: Grid O' Holes

    Quote Originally Posted by mountaindew View Post
    I have also been researching quilt making recently for new custom tool paths and textures.
    Before I decided to CNC full time I was stunned when I visited a customer who had a quilting machine in their guest house. The guest house has a large living room and the quilting machine took up most of it. At the time my only first hand experience with that sort of automation was my tiny little Taig 2019.

    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com


  3. #23
    Member mountaindew's Avatar
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    Default Re: Grid O' Holes

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob La Londe View Post
    Before I decided to CNC full time I was stunned when I visited a customer who had a quilting machine in their guest house. The guest house has a large living room and the quilting machine took up most of it. At the time my only first hand experience with that sort of automation was my tiny little Taig 2019.
    There is so much cnc machines can do. My cam has lots of different tool path strategies. 2d contour, drive, surface, waterline and a number of others. Great for most part making needs. What I want to add are custom tool paths that create patterns and textures on material surfaces. Good example would be knife scales. Cam up not only the scale profiles to fit the knife but add different patterns or textures. Go to router load with sheet of material and cut 50 pairs of scales complete with a pattern or texture to add style and flare to a otherwise simple knife scale profile program.
    Quilting is just a skill I happened to notice had a large number of ideas for patterns and textures to choose from.



  4. #24
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    Default Re: Grid O' Holes

    A fixture plate came with my 440 from Tormach (not SMW) It also had a 4" Tormach vice ON the fixture plate. I wanted to like it, but it seemed to suit no purpose. Low profile mod vices? Then I would get it. The problem is, the SMW vices' are 1.25" hole spacing, mine are 1"...I don't know what else to do with the fixture plate so I took it off. To do the SMW setup would be a solid $700. I can't see spending that. If I could make my own fixture plate, then maybe...SMW supplies CAD models for their vices, I just can't seem to mod them in Fusion360 to work for mine. Am I cheap? I guess so, but it it was something I KNEW would turn my life around, I'd be all in.



  5. #25
    Member kstrauss's Avatar
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    Default Re: Grid O' Holes

    mountaindew, I'm not certain that I understand your objective but have you looked into the "texture toolpath" with VCarve?



  6. #26
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    Default Re: Grid O' Holes

    hy bob by half ground, you mean something like attached ?

    idea of rotating the probe 180* is very good i tried to avoid tir errors, by taking real errors into consideration, like using real error values inside the probing macro, but this can be avoided entirely, by using the probe macro as it is, and repeating the measurement at 0, then 180, and averaging the values .... good idea, thank you

    if you have a probe, you don't need a 3d taster, unless you wish to measure some complex geometry; a 3d taster does :
    ... what a probe can do, but slower
    ... things that a probe can not do, like measuring tilted surfaces; a probe will fail if measuring direction is not perpendicular on surface, at contact point; only cmm probes can handle such situations

    as for things that a 3d taster can do, but a probe can't, i have measured :
    ... a curved surface, in order to recut it at constant doc
    ... a shaft with a custom conic thread, variable pitch and uneven section

    From what I see you can set one up on a Monday and run it all week and come back to 50 pallets of different complete parts at end of week
    that's specific to shops that reach a specific level of organization; a smaller shop can use similar, but less automated systems, like changing plates using a railway that can be conected/disconected fast to the machine; it works for heavy plates, and is less expensive than a robot or a crane

    reagardless of method, there is recomanded a way to check that the pallet/plate that is inside the machine, is the one that really coreponds to the program imagine doing preparatory work for a few plates, leave the machine alone, and come back to see that it did machine the pallets in wrong order

    4 axis and jump to robot 6 plus axis
    when it comes to robots, programing most of them requires not hard, but specific skills; in automobile industry, this raised a problem years ago, so they where between the 1st to implement easy to program heavy robots; such technology become recent available, by that manual jog & learn type of programing, which is way faster then previous metods; check latest fanuc robots; it's a child play

    an idea for simple automation, is to use a side door, 2 conveyor belts automated or gravity type, and a coolant griper inside the spindle

    What I want to add are custom tool paths that create patterns and textures on material surfaces.
    please, will you develop this a bit ? to what kind of products to aplly this idea ? is this wood ?

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Grid O' Holes-untitled-png  


  7. #27

    Default Re: Grid O' Holes

    Yep. Exactly. The flat is as exactly on the center line as I can make it. The shank of a broken or worn out tool works fairly well because the the diameter is known and fairly accurate. This makes it easier to measure the radius once you start grinding or cutting your flat. I've made them as a complete tool with a tool holder shank, and I've just taken an old carbide end Mill and ground one to stick in a tool holder. They both work about equally well. With my lightweight machines I have to assume that there's a certain amount of flex if I press against it too hard, but it gets me there.

    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com


  8. #28
    Member mountaindew's Avatar
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    Default Re: Grid O' Holes

    Kstrouse
    I have not looked but im guessing its what I want to do. I have looked at finished products and could tell they were consistent and machined. Figured other cam programs had this or crafty people figured a way to brute force this into their projects. Also anything I do in sprutcam they tend to add to the software. I'm just wanting it now.

    Deadlykitty
    Materials like layered g10, micarta and other types of polymers. And or course wood and layered or laminated woods. They gain a distinct look when milled with a texture



  9. #29
    Member deadlykitten's Avatar
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    Default Re: Grid O' Holes

    thank you for your tips bob you are a practical guy

    for faster zeroing, try a grid shift :
    ... program z0 ( not z coordinate on screen, but value inside origin's table ) to represent the height between table and part's face
    ... tool z offset ( not z coordinate on screen, but value inside offset's table ) to represent distance between spindle face and tool nose
    *like this, all those random numbers that represent program z0, and z offset, will no longer be something relative, but absolute ; for example, this will allow to input :
    ... program z0, by measuring, with a depth caliper, the distance between part and table
    ... tool z offset, by measuring how much it sticks out from the spindle
    futher application for this, is to sync real machine with simulation software


    other tricks :
    ... set/record a zero right on the corner of your fix vice jaw; when clamping random things inside your vice, simply measure the distance between them and that point on the fix jaw, then edit the origin
    ... rarely, you may consider to record zero's for the t slots : this comes in handy for large parts, that are mounted directly to table

    Materials like layered g10, micarta and other types of polymers
    i mostly cut metal, i really have no clue; you made me curios, what kind of parts are you doing ? like ornamental ? kindly



  10. #30

    Default Re: Grid O' Holes

    Texturing could also be useful for some types of mold making.

    On the tormach mill I have actually mapped the table relative to the working envelope of the machine and machine coordinates. I know that doesn't repeat exactly but it repeats good enough. I use this to lay out my fixture plates when I design them so that I can get optimum use of the machines working envelope. I also set my register at exactly center of travel on the plates. Most of the time dropping a pin into the hole is good enough, but if I need greater repeatability than that I can probe it.

    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com


  11. #31
    Member mountaindew's Avatar
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    Default Re: Grid O' Holes

    Deadlykitty
    The ideas for patterns can be used in a number of ways. In all types of materials including metals. In short mirror finish is boring!
    Most high end machine work the focus is on precision surfaces for high tolerance assembly, mostly out of metals.
    But there is a big world out there full of ideas that have different needs using a very wide range of materials to make widgets out of.

    Bob mentions one of its many uses would be adding useful or decorative textures and patterns to molded parts. Like grip surfaces
    Custom auto or motorcycle parts both machined or molded is another.
    Mostly looking to add methods to my cnc toolbox that allow more creative freedoms. Not just the boring mirror or media blast finish.
    Another good example was shown in a new clickspring video just posted. He is using a very cool older mechanical pattern maker for his work.
    In short what im saying is not everything is production and some people make one offs that are worth more then a pallet of precision parts



  12. #32
    Member deadlykitten's Avatar
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    Default Re: Grid O' Holes

    above method works also works for edge finders, well except that its continuously rotating of course
    hy bob, please, can you develop this a bit ? i understood how rotating the probe 180* can help with reducing errors, etc, but i can not understand how the same principle aplies to an edge finder; i think flipping 180* can not be used with rpm ?! kindly

    - parameter's value doesn't matter, what matters is consistency
    - you can reduce cycle time not by reducing it, but by reducing it's uncertainty


  13. #33

    Default Re: Grid O' Holes

    LOL. Sorry. Skip the double locate steps. If you have used a a rotating edge finder I am sure you have already done it.

    Sometimes I will do it twice. Particularly in smaller round holes. The second time making sure to start from the center found the first time. I think direction of rotation and angle of engagement can affect snap over. If starting from very close to center (doing it twice) that affect (effect?) is minimized.

    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com


  14. #34
    Member deadlykitten's Avatar
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    Default Re: Grid O' Holes



    - parameter's value doesn't matter, what matters is consistency
    - you can reduce cycle time not by reducing it, but by reducing it's uncertainty


  15. #35

    Default Re: Grid O' Holes

    Here is the inspiration for looking at the whole Grid O Holes thing again. This machine has a 24K spindle, but it only has a 6.8 x 11.8 inch work envelope. By using this little fixture plate I can make 4 - 2 x 5 mold plates in one setup. (By the time I finish this run I'll have made 200 of these mold plates (100 complete molds)). I rough these blanks 9 at a time on the Tormach 1100S3 using a different semi purpose built fixture plate. I made two of the fixture plates you see in the picture and I have a second identical machine I can use it on. The problem is I have another quantity mold order to fill and I had to swap out fixture plates (can only cut two plates at a time on that mold). I'd love to be able to drop standoffs, pins, and clamps (on a spacer probably) onto a more universal fixture plate depending on what I'm going to be doing a run of. At this moment I've got a machine tied up making.... another fixture plate. LOL.

    For those who would say "just use a vise", or "just use 2 vises," that would be very inefficient compared to fixture plates that can hold a lot more pieces of stock than that. (and if you look close I am using a vise. LOL)

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Grid O' Holes-grid-holes-jpg  
    Last edited by Bob La Londe; 11-07-2021 at 06:42 PM.
    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com


  16. #36

    Default Re: Grid O' Holes

    Oops.... forgot the picture added above now.

    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com


  17. #37

    Default Re: Grid O' Holes

    That's one of many reasons I like my SMW fixture plate so much. MOST of the time I make prototypes so it doesn't do much other than give me a ton of mounting and securing options (usually for my mod vises). However, I do have a couple jobs that are recurring, usually low volume at a time but fast and easy to run. For those jobs, I rely on either subplates that locate on the fixture plate holes, or I have SMW diamond pins installed in the bottom of the fixture for that job so it just drops on the table and bolts down, ready to run. Of course, the key to that is making sure my fixture plate is properly trammed in whenever I remove and reinstall it but that's a trivial task. Once it's on and aligned, everything else gets super easy.



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