Tormach 1100MX vs SYIL X7 2020

[Spinnetti]

If I get another (have to move first), looks like the 0P will be my choice.

[dazp1976]

All three machines have their dissapointments.

Haas. Price & spindle rpm.
Syil. Travels.
Tormach. Spindle power.

I'd have the tormach but it really should have the 5.5kw motor from the syil on it.
I can't beleive the MX has a spindle that low (1.48kw I beleive)!!!.

I mean, you can tell how badly underpowered the Tormach is by the fact the whole thing runs off a 20A breaker on single phase.

[ihavenofish]

The mx1100 pricing (i think tariffs have something to do with it unfortunately) isn't logical. it is not in the same category of machine as the haas or even the syil.

My friend has a syil on the way, so we'll see how it performs.

[ihavenofish]

All three machines have their dissapointments.

Haas. Price & spindle rpm.
Syil. Travels.
Tormach. Spindle power.

I'd have the tormach but it really should have the 5.5kw motor from the syil on it.
I can't beleive the MX has a spindle that low (1.48kw I beleive)!!!.

I mean, you can tell how badly underpowered the Tormach is by the fact the whole thing runs off a 20A breaker on single phase.

2.2kw continuous is usually the limit for single phase 220v drives. The syil is 3 phase which makes it a non option for many people. Power is not really on the top of the list for tormach shortcomings.
Remember that haas lists the peak power before catching fire - so divide by about 2 to fairly compare to the tormach. Not sure how the Syil rating is derived.

[Steve303]

The mx1100 pricing (i think tariffs have something to do with it unfortunately) isn't logical. it is not in the same category of machine as the haas or even the syil.

My friend has a syil on the way, so we'll see how it performs.

Wouldn't the same tariffs apply to the Syil? Or do the buyers have to pay them on delivery? I'd like to see how the Syil performs in person. I think the Syil's seen on YouTube are sponsored reviews so ....

[ihavenofish]

Wouldn't the same tariffs apply to the Syil? Or do the buyers have to pay them on delivery? I'd like to see how the Syil performs in person. I think the Syil's seen on YouTube are sponsored reviews so ....

Sorry, im not american. Didn't clarify. For tormach (or grizzly for example) the tarrifs get stacked on, but with syil the machine never visits the US so, not an issue. I know for grizzly the tarrifs are something like 50% (insane). Not sure if tormach winds up with the same.

No tarrifs on a haas of course in any case. So (for me) tormach is as a massive price disadvantage in addition to the performance disadvantage to both syil and haas.

[jwatte]

> 2.2kw continuous is usually the limit for single phase 220v drives.

That seems low. Like, my car has a single-phase 240V charger, and charges at three times that, continuous. My electric water heater draws 10 kW per phase (but it wants two phases.)

If you mean "single phase, 120V" then, yes, modern housing generally has 20A /12ga circuits, which are good for 2.4 kW, and older houses have 15A/14-16ga circuits good for 1.8 kW.


Regarding the HAAS TMs, remember that you have to pay another $1700 for rigid tapping, and another $3300 for "high speed machining," which really just means "don't just go to the next coordinate, then stop, then go to the next target, ..." Both of those features are already included for free in PathPilot / LCNC.

[Steve303]

Sorry, im not american. Didn't clarify. For tormach (or grizzly for example) the tarrifs get stacked on, but with syil the machine never visits the US so, not an issue. I know for grizzly the tarrifs are something like 50% (insane). Not sure if tormach winds up with the same.

No tarrifs on a haas of course in any case. So (for me) tormach is as a massive price disadvantage in addition to the performance disadvantage to both syil and haas.

I'm in Canada as well. Canada has no tariffs on CNC machinery. I wonder if Tormach is able to have the tariffs paid on machines imported to the USA refunded when sales are made to customers outside the USA?

[ihavenofish]

> 2.2kw continuous is usually the limit for single phase 220v drives.

That seems low. Like, my car has a single-phase 240V charger, and charges at three times that, continuous. My electric water heater draws 10 kW per phase (but it wants two phases.)

If you mean "single phase, 120V" then, yes, modern housing generally has 20A /12ga circuits, which are good for 2.4 kW, and older houses have 15A/14-16ga circuits good for 1.8 kW.


Regarding the HAAS TMs, remember that you have to pay another $1700 for rigid tapping, and another $3300 for "high speed machining," which really just means "don't just go to the next coordinate, then stop, then go to the next target, ..." Both of those features are already included for free in PathPilot / LCNC.

2.2kw is the continuous output of the spindle. it will peak at 200% of that. so 4.4kw for several seconds to several minutes (depends on the drive and the motor)

Just need to make sure you are comparing apples to apples.

As to why the limit? Not really sure, but every line of drives (outside a few custom made ones i've seen) stops at 2.2kw for single phase.

[ihavenofish]

I'm in Canada as well. Canada has no tariffs on CNC machinery. I wonder if Tormach is able to have the tariffs paid on machines imported to the USA refunded when sales are made to customers outside the USA?

I'm not sure. Are tormachs just popped otu of a crate from china? Or is there work done in the US. Novakon for example just brought in frames, and did actual work integrating the control in canada, so it becomes a hybrid product.

[ihavenofish]

So the TM-0P is $38600us with 10k spindle, rigid tap and HSM.
Tormach is 34k for the deluxe kit. To chose the tormach seems idiotic at least on paper (there are other factors not to do with the spec, like getting it into your basement)

[Steve303]

So the TM-0P is $38600us with 10k spindle, rigid tap and HSM.
Tormach is 34k for the deluxe kit. To chose the tormach seems idiotic at least on paper (there are other factors not to do with the spec, like getting it into your basement)

Haas has various discounts programs at different times of the year. Last August I believe they had 25% off on mini mills and CM mills. In Canada they had 15% off all machines and options until June 2021. The 15% discount also came off any options added at time of purchase. I would think that a 5%-10% discount off Haas's list price can be negotiated.

[ihavenofish]

Haas has various discounts programs at different times of the year. Last August I believe they had 25% off on mini mills and CM mills. In Canada they had 15% off all machines and options until June 2021. The 15% discount also came off any options added at time of purchase. I would think that a 5%-10% discount off Haas's list price can be negotiated.

Yeah they negotiate, so, i bet it is not unreasonable for them to match the tormach pricing to make the sale.

Tormach needs a ground up new machine if they want to play in this price zone - maybe one made in the US once metal prices have stabilised.

[CL_MotoTech]

Tormach has backed themselves into a corner a bit, but their main draw is that you don't have to deal with Haas service because the machines are DIY serviceable. If you don't have to pay a Haas tech $2500 for a spindle crash, Tormach gets cheaper pretty quick. Never mind that Haas dings you up on just about everything. Probing, that's $6k. Pendant, throw another $1.2k on. Rigid tapping? $1.6k. 6k spindle, there's $4k. My TM-0 comes out to $40k and I haven't even gotten it delivered. I agree the Haas is way more machine, but it's still not a great apples to apples comparison. The used Mini Mill is still probably the way to go, you can find them with chip conveyors and big tool changers for sub $20k these days, but you still have to fit it in your space and deal with Haas service.

Tormach doesn't nickel and dime, and that goes a long way for somebody not doing production work.

[ihavenofish]

haas probe is renishaw. thats the price from every machine maker. you dont have to buy that probe at all, that just happens to be the one they offer direct.

as for repairs... not 100% sure on that. what prevents you from repairing the spindle yourself on the haas? they sell all the parts.

i agree that rigid tap should be stock, i cant imagine they sell a single machine without it.

[CL_MotoTech]

I watched the intern crash the Haas VF1 at a shop I worked at, I wish I could say that the repair was $2k, it was twice that. Of course Haas did the work, but still...

[ihavenofish]

tormachs spindles cost over $1000 as well though...

[footpetaljones]

as for repairs... not 100% sure on that. what prevents you from repairing the spindle yourself on the haas? they sell all the parts.

Haas does not sell many of their parts directly to you. Since we're on the topic of spindles, go to parts.haascnc.com, search "spindle" and you'll see a little note on them that "this part must be installed by an HFO".

[dazp1976]

Tormach has backed themselves into a corner a bit,

Well. There's only so many 'home hobbyist' type machines you'll sell over time.
You do need a certain degree of common sense and basic technical knowhow to use them.

Over the last 18 months or so, many many many people have shown that they lack even basic common sense.

[Advil]

I love Tormach. They fill a need for me that nothing else does. Now here is the BUT:
The price of a fully loaded out 1100MX is way into the range you can get a used 7hp HAAS mini mill. Maybe... even a very base new one. in the $30-40k range.

The whole reason I bought a Tormach was because of the garage cost efficient machine that I can afford to run or not. Low cost of ownership. The 770M is the only machine they still have on the list that fills the bill. You could buy the base machine for 8k with no stand... bolt it to a really heavy bench, put a shower curtain around it and go buy some cutting tools from somewhere. You'll be making chips on a "new" machine for $10k and have 10k RPM spindle for small tools and fine work.

You really should get the stand and chip tray they make for it which is about $2k. So in my mind $12k with some tooling and you are ready to make some stuff.

The BASE MX with the BT30 kit that everyone who doesn't own other machines will need is going to start at $23k.

It's ok-ish... but now we're into used industrial machine prices with 3-4x the horsepower.

It does have a place. It IS still DIY and won't need a lot of other install costs like the HAAS... but the whole point of going Tormach in my mind is to strike the perfect balance of price and capability for a PERSONAL machine you can plug into a wall in the garage.

at the $25k range... do dovetail ways and 2hp still make sense? It might for you, but think hard.

If I outgrow my 770 S3, I'm not going to get an 1100MX... I'm going to get a Mini Mill, or Mini Mill 2 or VF2 or something...

Like I said nothing against Tormach AT ALL. Just sanity check price vs. capability first.