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  1. #161
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    Default Re: pcnc440's after near 3 yrs

    I finally did some simple upgrades . I honestly can't stand tinkering on cnc's anymore so everything gets put off to another time .
    I've been running 12v bilge pumps for many years because they work , and they are cheap . They burn out after a while because of the chips which is why cheap is always good .
    I decided I wanted more nozzles and pressure rather than running a single flow . I printed up some blocks for the nozzles and bought some pumps on amazon which are really good for the price (35 bux and 860 gal/min ) . This is a big improvement . Some chips still get past my screens that I have in my buckets , and to protect the pumps and lines from clogging I fitted some old sports socks over the pumps to filter out any small stuff . I considered getting some pump protective bags but old socks become shop rags and the idea struck me so I went with it .

    One mill has been fitted with the new drain which is much better for the bs pan they sell . They printed ok but not perfect , the filament has been exposed to the elements for well over a year and I don't have a warmer or the patience to leave it in the oven . Either way they come out good enough for what they are needed for .

    I got a new pc ia few days after my last post and at some point I'm going to install linuxcnc onto it and configure it for one of the 440's. If all goes well then I'll probably cross all the mills over to qt dragon and be done with the screen hangups that I get with pathpilot when booting up

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails pcnc440's after near 3 yrs-thumbnail_img_20250116_135753_896-jpg   pcnc440's after near 3 yrs-thumbnail_img_20250116_134513_873-jpg   pcnc440's after near 3 yrs-thumbnail_img_20250116_134954_666-jpg   pcnc440's after near 3 yrs-thumbnail_img_20250116_135233_943-jpg  

    Last edited by metalmayhem; 01-16-2025 at 07:52 PM.


  2. #162
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    Default Re: pcnc440's after near 3 yrs

    double post forum issues

    Last edited by metalmayhem; 01-16-2025 at 07:51 PM.


  3. #163
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    Default Re: pcnc440's after near 3 yrs

    Hi,
    a while back when I bought a new spindle I needed a water coolant circulation pump. I found second hand a pump as picture.

    It has a Oriental Motor 150W induction motor running a magnetically coupled (no pesky shaft seal) stainless gear pump, beautiful quality. Does 5/l but this is the good bit.....
    at nearly 150psi. $48NZD + $10NZD freight or $35USD delivered!!! Liked them so much I bought three, one for my spindle and two I plan to use a jet coolant pumps..
    Bought another two and sent them to Peter Homman in Aussie.

    If you want some, let me know. The last time I looked the supplier had over forty of them.

    Craig

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails pcnc440's after near 3 yrs-interlockandpneumatics-jpg  


  4. #164
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    Default Re: pcnc440's after near 3 yrs

    Hi,
    just had another look, and the price has gone up, but they are still available. They are now $59NZD ($35.40USD)....which is still pretty reasonable.

    Craig

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails pcnc440's after near 3 yrs-coolingpump240v-jpg  


  5. #165
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    Default Re: pcnc440's after near 3 yrs

    thanks and that sounds like a good deal but I think these are good enough for my needs . There was a more powerful option available but I went with this . The pans have 1/2" risers that the machines sit on . Nothing is sealed so when coolant gets past those blocks I have flooding . I should seal them up one day but probably won't . The blast I have gets plenty of coolant to the tool and clears the chips , so it's all I need



  6. #166
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    Default Re: pcnc440's after near 3 yrs

    Hi,
    yes I'm well tired of chasing coolant or coolant blockages around!!

    I have a plan to make a big coolant tank 0.65m x 0.3m x 1.1m for around 130l that fits under my machine. Should allow a large area gauze, say 600 x 600 through which the coolant returns.
    Hoping to minimize leaks and blockages.

    Craig

    - - - Updated - - -

    Hi,
    yes I'm well tired of chasing coolant or coolant blockages around!!

    I have a plan to make a big coolant tank 0.65m x 0.3m x 1.1m for around 130l that fits under my machine. Should allow a large area gauze, say 600 x 600 through which the coolant returns.
    Hoping to minimize leaks and blockages.

    Craig



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    Default Re: pcnc440's after near 3 yrs

    I have absorbent socks behind the mills which helps some . If I keep up on clearing chips then the leaks are minimal , my problem is I'm not good at doing that .
    I need to buy some drip pans for them , the coolant leaks aren't good for the shop's drywall . I got one for the torus from uline which is a nice size and I think it was only around 150 which isnt too bad , except buying for 4 more mills adds up



  8. #168
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    Default Re: pcnc440's after near 3 yrs

    Hi,
    my coolant tank is only 12l, is does not take too much of an upset and bad things happen. The filter is only about 4" in diameter.

    When I first bought it and used on my mini-mill is was quite adequate. Now that I have a much bigger machine and especially with a 3.5kW spindle I make a
    huge amount more chips....and that gives me grief with blockages etc. The mill is shrouded right around so I don't have too much trouble containing the coolant in the machine,
    its only when it returns to the tank loaded with chips.

    My neighbour is a refrigeration tech and I've had him make me a chiller to cool the spindle coolant water. Installing it at the moment. Moment that is paid for and 'bedded in' then
    I'll be getting a new coolant tank made.

    Craig



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    Default Re: pcnc440's after near 3 yrs

    I've still got 5 gallon buckets for coolant and been running that way since I got the mills , I did the same with all the retrofits before that because it was quick and easy . Once all the mills are set up with the new spouts then I'll be running pipes to modified totes and have them off to the side of the machines rather than in front as it is now . Bigger tanks will be nice because a lot of coolant becomes air born and I need to top up what I have fairly often . It's another reason I don't want to go with too high of a volume with pumps .



  10. #170
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    Default Re: pcnc440's after near 3 yrs

    Hi,
    I have the same problem. When I'm doing work that requires coolant I seem to be topping it up hourly....or at least so it seems.
    I would guess 8 plus liters a day.....where does it all go?. I've come to the same conclusion as you, it hits the spindle and turns to a mist and vaporizes.
    I am quite frankly staggered at how quickly it disappears. Most of my tool paths require spindle speeds well in excess of 10krpm and often over 30k rpm.
    As such high speeds the propensity for coolant to mist/vaporize is high.

    Coolant is essential for a lot of my work. I've found that steady well directed flood coolant to be the single technique that allows me to do the work I do. The tool wear
    and/or built-up-edge without said coolant is effectively prohibitive.

    Craig.



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    Default Re: pcnc440's after near 3 yrs

    coolant either evaporates from heat or turns to mist , either way it becomes air born and eventually everything has a layer of oil on it . I can't complain about it because it is much healthier of an environment than when I ran large steel parts with high pressure through spindle coolant .
    With my setup I'm finding that it's mostly water evaporation than the oil mist travelling . Everything has a coat of oil so it does travel but the evaporation is the biggest factor . I monitor the levels of my coolant concentrate by eye and sometimes verify with the refractometer . Most times I'm just topping up with water



  12. #172
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    Default Re: pcnc440's after near 3 yrs

    Hi,
    my theory, and it is only a theory, that the coolant hits the spindle a fraction of it turns to mist. The small droplets evaporate quite readily, leaving the oil behind.
    I don't appear to have a fine oil residue anywhere other than in the mill enclosure. Its far from impossible that there is a extremely light oil film building up in the workshop,
    but if it is its so light that I have no evidence of it in the three years since we moved here.

    The majority of my top-ups are just water also.

    Craig

    - - - Updated - - -

    Hi,
    my theory, and it is only a theory, that the coolant hits the spindle a fraction of it turns to mist. The small droplets evaporate quite readily, leaving the oil behind.
    I don't appear to have a fine oil residue anywhere other than in the mill enclosure. Its far from impossible that there is a extremely light oil film building up in the workshop,
    but if it is its so light that I have no evidence of it in the three years since we moved here.

    The majority of my top-ups are just water also.

    Craig



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    Default Re: pcnc440's after near 3 yrs

    it's definitely has a lot to do with evaporation , I found the large industrial machines to be the same . Some oils do get carried away though which is evident when I change the filters on my heat pump . Filters are shot at around 6 months , and the last time I pushed to too long it alarmed and shut down the system because it wasn't passing through enough air . That scared me because it's an expensive unit and I had no ac in the dead center of summer
    Polishing and deburring also adds to that problem since the filter becomes saturated in oil and fibres from the scotchbrite belts and wheels and aluminum dust



  14. #174
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    Default Re: pcnc440's after near 3 yrs

    Hi,
    I made a mistake a while ago, surprising really, I'd already made a mistake once and swore I'd never repeat it!

    A friend asked me to mill a shallow pocket in a piece of plywood as a jig to hold a name tag in a laser. I did the job, took but a few minutes and it was perfect.
    The problem is that thereafter I had repeated coolant filter blockages. It seemed that the sawdust, and it was dust, turned gelatinous and seemed to gum everything up.
    Took several weeks before it cleared itself. Bottom line is do not put wooden products in a mill meant for plastics and metals.. Even fiberglass is troublesome, it too tends
    to form a dust, which at least does not go gelatinous, but is so fine it passes through any gauze filter and accumulates as a sludge in the bottom of the tank.

    It is in part why I want a much larger tank, that there be sufficient area for the sludge to accumulate without it getting too deep, and therefore not require as frequent clean up.
    Second advantage is that I have a small 1/2 hp three phase motor for the coolant pump. I'm hoping that it will deliver sufficient volume that I can run a portion, say 20l/min through
    a gauze/paper filter combination. The output of the filter will go into one, or even two, of the stainless gear pumps that I have on hand, pictured previously.

    I want good volume from the main tank/pump, I'm hoping 60l/min. This is not so much to flood the tool, but rather create a sufficient flow to 'wash' the chips towards the drain and main
    gauze filter. The stainless gear pumps produce a nice volume, about 5l/min, but at good pressure, and that stream will be directed at the tool, using the flow speed to 'flush' chips away from the cut zone.

    That's the theory anyway....have to see how it turns out.

    Craig



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    Default Re: pcnc440's after near 3 yrs

    Hi,
    as you know I bought a new spindle a few months back, 3.5kW(S1), 3.4Nm (S1), and its going great. What does concern me though is that after an hour, or maybe two hours the
    temperature of the spindle gets up, guessing 50C to touch. It has a 10l water circulation reservoir, and the water gets up to 40C or so and does not offer the cooling it should.

    My neighbor is a refrigeration tech, and specializes in buying up faulty units, and recycling the components.

    He has made for me a chiller unit using the compressor and evaporator out of a large two door chilled display cabinet. I've been plumbing it in and running it this morning.
    Both he and I were concerned that the unit would cool too much such that saturated refrigerant would get back to the vapor inlet of the compressor...and bad things happen.
    As it turns out the thermal cooling is only very slightly bit stronger than the heat output of the spindle. The ambient temp here at the moment is about 25C. The chiller has cooled the circulation
    water reservoir, now increased to 15l, to 8.1C. The circulation water return from the spindle (5l/min flow) is 9.1C. So the spindle is dumping heat into the circulating water.
    The vapour line at the inlet to the compressor is 19.5C. So there should be no problem with saturated refrigerant getting back to the compressor.

    Even after an hour cutting steel, the spindle is stone cold, maybe 12C to touch.

    Looks like I will need some thermostatic control over the chiller, but I am very VERY encouraged at how thermally balanced to combination is. It is still pretty 'Heef Wobinson' (with a lisp)
    at the moment. But it looks to be about perfectly sized for my installation. Over the next month or two I 'll tidy it up and give it some thermostatic control. Really happy how
    its worked out.

    Craig

    PS: After 1.5hr running the coolant reservoir is down to 5C and the return vapour line is starting to frost. If I leave it for another half hour or so saturated refrigerant will enter the
    compressor which I definitely do not want. Do need some thermostatic control. That was the point of the experiment.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails pcnc440's after near 3 yrs-chiller-jpg  


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    Default Re: pcnc440's after near 3 yrs

    is there an optimal temperature for that spindle , and are the bearings greased ?
    My torus pro needs a good 20 minute warm up to bring it up to temp , otherwise I get a tool drop of .0015"-.002" from a cold start . I don't notice it so much with the tormachs if at all . My guess is dropping from room temp for example to 8 degrees is likely going to provide shrinkage in your case , and you may be doing a 20 minute cool down before running . I'd probably look at a temperature control switch and run it at 20 . That way it's not running hot or cold



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    Default Re: pcnc440's after near 3 yrs

    Hi,
    just doing a few calculations to determine whether my chiller system is sensible and I'm not overlooking anything.

    The geared water circulation pump circulates about 5l/minute. I have previously measured it, and being geared the flow rate is remarkably independent of pressure. So at 70psi the flow rate
    is still close to 5l/min. It enters the spindle at 8.1C and leaves it at 9.1C. My thermocouple thermometer is only so-so for this measurement but let's assume a one degree(C) increase in temperature.

    5l/min = 5000 cm3/min.
    Therefore, for each one degree (C) rise the heat input = 5000 calories or 21000J/min or 350W

    My spindle when running, but no cutting load draws, about 6.5A from a 400VAC VFD. This current is broadly independent of speed and is largely the magnetizing current of the windings.
    I presume some of that energy will be dissipated as copper loss, and some will be hysteresis loss. The total power input (running, no load) is 6.5 x 400 =2600w.

    We have an estimate of the heat being added to the water coolant of 350W, which suggests of the 350 /2600 or 13.5% of the apparent energy being supplied to the spindle (running no load) is
    being turned into heat. To be honest I would have expected more something like 25% to 30%, but I think my admittedly scratchy calculation is within the realm of believability.

    Over half an hour I measured the coolant water reservoir drop from 9.1C to 4.7C. If I assume zero heat coming from the surrounding into the 15l coolant reservoir then the heat extracted by the
    chiller = 15000 . (9.1 -4.7) . 4.2 = 277kJ per half hour or 154W. That does not count the 350W added by the spindle so the total cooling effort by the chiller is 154 + 350=454W

    My seat of the pant estimate was that the chiller was thermally speaking beating the spindle heat output by something like 25% to 50%. This calculation suggests the chiller has 154/454 =34%
    excess thermal capacity. I think that is a good result. The numbers seem to give credence to my observations.

    Definitely time for me to trundle next door and pay the guy. Might even have to take some fresh baked date scones and a box of beer to sweeten the deal!

    Craig



  18. #178
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    Default Re: pcnc440's after near 3 yrs

    Hi,

    My guess is dropping from room temp for example to 8 degrees is likely going to provide shrinkage in your case , and you may be doing a 20 minute cool down before running . I'd probably look at a temperature control switch and run it at 20 . That way it's not running hot or cold
    I think you are right. If anything, the spindle is running too cold, mind you it was running too hot before. That does mean that with thermostatic control I should be able to ensure it stays at 20C.
    Still very happy with the result.

    Need to rebuild it somewhat to properly mount the tubing so it does not jiggle around too much, make a cover to keep children/pets etc out, oh and tidy up the electrics a bit.

    I've been putting this project off for quite a while (two months) as it seemed like a 'bridge too far'. I was mistaken, just talk to the Chappy next door, and voila. He had constructed it within four hours
    of me asking about it. Took me longer to plumb in and wire up than he took to make it!

    Craig



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    Default Re: pcnc440's after near 3 yrs

    Getting back to the pumps I posted previously - they've been working really well on the 440's and they pump plenty of coolant without flooding my floor . I'm going to buy a couple extras to have on hand . My previous cheap pumps burned out after a year or so which I consider decent for the amount of running they did , and I'll be happy if I get the same amount of time from these .

    The ribbon cable is shot on one mill and it keeps tripping the estop mid run and it was really causing me grief yesterday . I caught the problem a while back and I repaired it since I didn't have an extra ribbon on hand and it's been good for a long while . The problem is back and I'll be swapping it for a new cable today . It still surprises me how well these mills have held up and they have had an exceptional amount of use since 2017 . There are still no signs of wear on the dovetails , the spindles and spindle motors are still solid and they are almost always running at top speed .

    It'll be interesting to see how ill of an effect the incoming tariffs on Chinese products will have on tormach again . 5K on a new 440 in 2017 was pretty reasonable , but , the prices rose a lot since then for a base mill and used haas are looking much more inviting



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    Default Re: pcnc440's after near 3 yrs

    the new ribbon cable I bought turned out to be a turd . It had my spindle spinning at roughly at probably 20 rpm when it should have been stopped , and it kept tripping alarms . I have another cable which is a spare split cable for running my rotary . That one will get me by until I get another strip in . Amazon is great for getting stuff quick but some of it is absolute trash

    When I bought the mills I bought the 440 repair kit which has fuses and a few other things , I remembered today it had a ribbon cable . One end is good the other end has the pc board type plug on it . I'm not sure wth thats supposed to be for but it matches nothing on these mills



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pcnc440's after near 3 yrs

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