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  1. #81
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    Default Re: New Fusion 360 limitations

    Quote Originally Posted by jwatte View Post
    If there aren't that many companies using Fusion, then so much the more reason to find another revenue stream to keep the team alive...

    I actually don't have a problem paying for software that fulfills needs for me. I'm actually much more annoyed with the way this was rolled out, and how it compared to previous expectation setting, than with the actual paying. It's enough that I have to check the balance before pressing "pay" but it's not out of my league per se.

    That being said, KiCad is so nice for schematic capture and PCB design -- much better than Eagle, that I paid for before, and then Autodesk bought it, and invalidated my license... I didn't pay for that again! I wish there was something like KiCad, for 3D CAD / CAM. FreeCad CAM workbench seems to be almost entirely for "sweep ball endmills over a profile to make pretty wall hangings" 2.5D workflow, from everything I've been able to see.
    What is it that you need to machine that is beyond the capabilities of Freecad Path? It certainly isn't perfect,but it does just about anything I need as a hobbyist and it gets better step by step.Maybe thats a part of the problem,because why would an commercial concern launch a product that is competing with an utterly free alternative?



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    Default Re: New Fusion 360 limitations

    Most posts in this thread now appear to fall into 2 categories. Those seeking consolation from others because they believed this free lunch would last forever, and those who just like to complain and haven't bothered to do the research.
    Those in the first category were just conveniently turning a blind eye to the numerous warnings. Whether this was the Autodesk strategy from the beginning is not for us to say - yes, I know what you all WANT to think! but it is what it is. We all knew this could and might happen. I don't recall who said "Experience is what you get when you were looking for something else". Consider this to be a part of growing up!

    I agree with kstrauss's comment that 2 weeks notice was very short but most hobbyists probably won't react until the changes happen anyway. If they'd given us 2 months notice this would have just dragged on and on in the forums. I don't really think it would have helped. Give everyone another 2 weeks after the changes to lick their wounds and it will all quieten down again.

    I still find the published information unclear (at least to me). What exactly will the impact be? How exactly will the code be posted? We (I) don't really know yet. Lars mentioned he would get together with the CAM guys and try to get some more specific information out. Besides my Tormach I'm also a Prusa user but I don't see how these changes would affect my 3D hobby printing at all, have I missed something? Anyway, we'll know in a few days. Personally I don't care too much. I've just been trying to find more information for the benefit of others. If the free version isn't enough for me (which is what I expect) I'll just pay for the subscription. I'm not aware of any other CAM/CAD products with comparable features and quality at anywhere close to the price, and so far I don't believe any have been identified in this thread yet. Sprutcam is by no means free, check out the prices on the Tormach site, and don't forget to factor in the cost of yearly updates/bugfixes. Don't forget this only covers the CAM side. This brings back memories of the all too numerous times I almost threw my Laptop out the window when using it.

    As for other so called high tech companies, do you really think Tesla or Google are any better? By the way, does anyone consider this to be high tech?
    https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/...car-components

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  3. #83
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    Default Re: New Fusion 360 limitations

    TurboStep you hit the nail on the head. I like that it was free and hate to lose that but I got to give it a really good tryout before spending a penny. Sometimes I’ll go for a month or two without using F360 at all. If I think about it as monthly charge when I don’t use it at all that stings a little. A lot of people seem to be looking at the worst case scenarios. Like when they quote $500 a year. It’s not. It is $297 a year at least for the next year and $267 a year if you lock in the 3 year deal. After that who knows what the situation will be. There may be more sales on F360 in the future or it could move toward the big bucks. FreeCAD could grow and be killer app or it could die and be abandon. I also don’t know how the changes will really affect me. I am OK with the 10 active file limit and loss of simulation as long a tool path simulation is still there which I think it is. I’m most concerned with the loss of rapids. I don’t have a big but I can imagine it really slowing down some adaptive tool paths and spotting + drilling a lot of holes. I don’t need the speed for production as 99.99% of my work is one-offs but I want to be making things sitting around wait for the machine to finish. That is the think I hate most with my 3D printer. I took a look at one of my current G-Code files and If all of the G0s became G1s I’m not sure I could easily tell which ones I needed to change. If I could recognize them I would just write a program to change for me.
    In the interest of doing due diligence I watched a few FreeCAD tutorials on modeling and CAM. I gave FreeCAD a try since I had installed it a while back. I played with the CAD but didn’t have an idea how to make the CAM work. I also read this article https://www.reddit.com/r/FreeCAD/com..._foot/g5pylx0/. I don’t want to be the beta tester for a product that might never become a complete and polished product. It didn’t sound like they had a very healthy development effort going on. I am a developer and I know how much work a project can be and how hard it can be with the personalities. I really understood what they were talking about in that area. If I was just doing 3D printing I would probably use it just to save the money but the CAM looks like it just doesn’t cut it for me. (No pun intended) I decide to look at it this way. I am really close to retirement and starting to look at the cost of life after employment ends. But, I have saved enough by not eating out every day for lunch since the pandemic began that I have already covered the cost of the 3 year subscription. In the meantime I can see what happens with FreeCAD and three years from now make a decision what to do next.



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    Default Re: New Fusion 360 limitations

    This video is over 1 hour but the from 6:10 to 12:50 the current state of 3D surfacing in FreeCad is discussed.
    To sum it up 3D surfacing is for test pilots atm.


    Anyone who says "It only goes together one way" has no imagination.


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    Member kstrauss's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Fusion 360 limitations

    Some may find the blog of the creator of HSM works (the CAM engine in Fusion360) of interest. Is there a lesson for the future? See Freesteel Blog



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    Default Re: New Fusion 360 limitations

    Quote Originally Posted by rcheli View Post
    I am really close to retirement and starting to look at the cost of life after employment ends. But, I have saved enough by not eating out every day for lunch since the pandemic began that I have already covered the cost of the 3 year subscription. In the meantime I can see what happens with FreeCAD and three years from now make a decision what to do next.
    I have just retired and just the numerous trips to the company coffee machine cost me far more than the 82 cents/day subscription costs (ok, provisionally $1.37/day after the 3 years are up). It's even more attractive now as I'll be using it more during my retirement than I did when I was working! As you say, after 3 years we can then reassess situation.

    Rechecking the latest Fusion FAQ I found:
    What does no rapid moves mean?
    Removing rapid moves means that all toolpaths will use High Feed, where the maximum feedrate for linking moves is the cut feedrate. You can still decrease the feedrate of linking moves if you want but you won’t be able to raise the high feed value above the cut feedrate.

    What does no automatic tool changes mean?
    Removing automatic tool changes means you will not be able to post operations that use more than one tool. You can still post multiple operations, so long as they all use the same tool. This means that if your program uses multiple tools, you’ll need to post each section individually.

    For many of you without automatic tool changers, this likely changes very little about your workflow. If you do have an automatic tool changer, you can still use it of course, but the tool change codes won’t be in your posted code.

    I'm not sure how long this has been described in that way, perhaps it's relatively new or maybe I missed it earlier, but that last part sounds quite nasty. We'll find out for sure tomorrow.
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    Default Re: New Fusion 360 limitations

    From my recollection, the last line is taken verbatim from the email notification so nothing new there. I interpret that bit as meaning, you can manually insert tool change commands while you're pasting together multiple posted files. Since they're saying you can't post multiple operations if they use different tools, I don't see the failure to post too change codes as leading to a potential crash.



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    Default Re: New Fusion 360 limitations

    Quote Originally Posted by soofle616 View Post
    From my recollection, the last line is taken verbatim from the email notification so nothing new there. I interpret that bit as meaning, you can manually insert tool change commands while you're pasting together multiple posted files. Since they're saying you can't post multiple operations if they use different tools, I don't see the failure to post too change codes as leading to a potential crash.
    Interestingly I never received an e-mail. The last line however implies to me that it will be possible to post code but the tool changes will be missing. It's just a few hours away, let's wait and see.
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    Default Re: New Fusion 360 limitations

    Quote Originally Posted by soofle616 View Post
    Since they're saying you can't post multiple operations if they use different tools, I don't see the failure to post too change codes as leading to a potential crash.
    Consider this if the tool number is not in the file: You post each tool to a separate file with the intent of combining the multiple single tool files into one multi-tool file for actual cutting. Getting the operations in the correct sequence and with the correct tool number depends on your diligence in naming the files according to a scheme that includes both the sequence and the tool number since the tool number is not part of the file. Easy if you have a job with two tools but somewhat more prone to mistakes in a job with a dozen tools and the possibility that you will use a single tool at multiple points in the same job.



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    Default Re: New Fusion 360 limitations

    Quote Originally Posted by kstrauss View Post
    Consider this if the tool number is not in the file: You post each tool to a separate file with the intent of combining the multiple single tool files into one multi-tool file for actual cutting. Getting the operations in the correct sequence and with the correct tool number depends on your diligence in naming the files according to a scheme that includes both the sequence and the tool number since the tool number is not part of the file. Easy if you have a job with two tools but somewhat more prone to mistakes in a job with a dozen tools and the possibility that you will use a single tool at multiple points in the same job.
    I agree 100%, but arguably, that is the operator/programmer's fault, not the software. I'm not looking to defend autodesk here, i'm still among those who are reluctantly now paying for what was once free, but from the black and white perspective of "will this directly lead to a crash" the lack of tool change or info output will not. Massively oversimplified viewpoint to be sure, but nevertheless, a true statement.



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    Default Re: New Fusion 360 limitations

    Of course it is the operator's fault! It was not my point to assign blame but to note that requiring the operator to combine multiple files in the proper sequence and then add tool number to the concatenation makes crashes likely. Even if the hobbyist ignores the value of his wasted time, the almost inevitable crashes with the resultant cost of repairs to correct machine damage, broken tools and spoiled stock is probably significantly greater than the cost of purchasing a license. And I suspect that is Autodesk's reasoning.



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    Default Re: New Fusion 360 limitations

    Autodesk made a large error here (and they know it, don't worry).

    To some degree, you aren't paying, so you have no rights, but its slightly more complex than that. Adesk will have to tweak all of this over the next few month.

    I use the free personal version at home, and we have a purchased commercial license at work. The restrictions to me mostly irrelevant because my home use is truly hobby goofing around. Most of these restrictions are blatantly "anti piracy" measures, and I can accept the annoyance for the free use - just like i can accept the software is unstable and basically beta because I don't pay for it.

    For most people with a tormach, it isn't really personal goofing around. You PAID a lot for that machine and are doing real work, even if it's not directly profitable. Paying for software should just be a no brainer and $300 a year is cheap (one months electric bill if you use the tormach daily). But this is where it gets complicated and where adesk made their mistake. They(and tormach, and everytone else) strap on a "presonal use" version of fusion to these machines, as if its part of the bundle you bought, then they changed the terms of that license. What they should have been doing is giving out "free" commercial licenses for some duration - 3 months a year, whatever - and then you could renew, or drop to personal, or jump ship. It would leave the choice to you, rather than having it forced onto you with no notice.

    They will now need to work with these bundlers to clean up this mess. Tormach should be offering a free commercial license to let you "clean up". One month term would do it - although if you bought the machine less than 12 months ago, they should be doing a lot more than that. Let you save all your files, export, archive, and do whatever you need to do to terminate fusion use - if that's what you want to do.

    For the people that just went and got fusion personal on their own... sucks to be you, but if it was bundled as some sort of implied value of that machine you bought, they need to provide a better way out.

    wotzBotz


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    Default Re: New Fusion 360 limitations

    it sounds to me that there is still plenty for a hobbyist to use in the free version , and it's still more than there has ever been available in the past . If no tool change means that a few simple codes are missing such as m6 g43 etc then thats a no brainier to edit in , or at least it should be .

    I spent yrs running mastercam for production of multiple parts and I only programmed for 1 part . I'd rip the programs apart , turn them into sub routines , and g52 shift every position . 4 axis work was programmed as 3 axis and rotations were added into the program . My point of this is that these things become second nature in a short period of time and a guy can get to the point that punching the extra code become automatic with very little thought or time

    Missing the rapid moves in the code may be easily resolved if the retract plane is different from the feed plane by making a macro in notepad++ . For example if rapid plane is 1" and feed plane is .1 then a macro in notepad++ can be made to change these to g0z1. g01F...z.1
    I have thousands of programs that needed code changes from mach to pathpilot and one click in notepad++ does all my edits .

    The bulk of the coding functions are still available for free and like I said already it is something that the hobbyists have never properly had available before . It's understandable that it can be intimidating to start hacking programs together , but really , is it wise to be programming cnc's blindly to begin with . The extra knowledge and eventual comfort of editing will only solidify a guy's confidence and competence when running a cnc



  14. #94

    Default Re: New Fusion 360 limitations

    @ihavenofish I think YOU hit it on the head (at least many Tormach users, including myself) I did purchase Tormach and learned F360 for the reason they are so bundled. If you sea h them on YouTube, they would appear to be in bed together. I spent the last 18 month learning F360 for this reason & purchased Tormach because of the perceived partnership between the two. I’m just under 2 week under notice to change everything I thought I was buying when I made this purchase. I’ll have to pay, actually my employer will as they support growing yourself even though I don’t use it for work. *could I by there agreement? It SEEMS personal & Business are no different now?



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    Default Re: New Fusion 360 limitations

    The standard procedure is a demo, a personal learning, and a full license, with various ways of discounting the full license (education etc). adesk tried something different to get a foothold fast with fusion, and it worked. Very well. Too well. Now they will need to fix this mistake.
    If your purchase was recent - ish (say, less than 6-9 months) i would pressure tormach to provide some sort of option (and they will in turn have to kick adesk, remember this f***s tormach too, no just you).

    wotzBotz


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    Default Re: New Fusion 360 limitations

    Quote Originally Posted by ihavenofish View Post
    They(and tormach, and everytone else) strap on a "presonal use" version of fusion to these machines, as if its part of the bundle you bought,...
    I don't recall Tormach ever strapping on any version of Fusion with their machines. A post processor is available for (presumably) all their machines but the copyright, at least for the mill post appears to be with Autodesk. Tormach also provide posts for other CAM solutions (EZ-Cam, TurboCam, SolidWorks etc.) and actually sell Sprut, VCarve and Espire. I believe they work together/closely (dunno) with Autodesk but I don't recall ever seeing Fusion as part of a "bundle". Where did you see this? I don't see why should it be? It can (still) be simply downloaded from Autodesk, so a "bundle" doesn't make any sense to me.
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    Default Re: New Fusion 360 limitations

    It's implied to a lot of users i think, even if there's no specific sales line item. It generates confusion, and then, when this happens, people are (in some ways rightly) upset. Ask tormach buyers like the one above (i dont have a tormach, i just use fusion)

    That's why its a mess and highlights the mistake in their original business model for fusion (this is adesks fault, not tormachs to be clear).

    wotzBotz


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    Default Re: New Fusion 360 limitations

    Quote Originally Posted by ihavenofish View Post
    It's implied to a lot of users i think, even if there's no specific sales line item.
    I never for one second assumed that there was any kind of dependency between Autodesk and Tormach. Tormach is just a small fish for Autodesk, they probably work much closer with a company like Haas. Check out their post library https://cam.autodesk.com/hsmposts to get an idea of the number of companies they're "involved" with. I also briefly searched the Tormach web site for mentions of Fusion but all I found was the a link for the Fusion post. Obviously this is already after the announcement, but on their partners page https://tormach.com/tormach-partners they don't even list Autodesk or Fusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by ihavenofish View Post
    people are (in some ways rightly) upset.
    Apparently many are indeed upset (myself excluded). When you install any software you're greeted by the terms and conditions - I'm sure Fusion was no exception. Do you read them? Me neither, but I know what they're likely to contain. The personal version was/is free to use under these terms and conditions. I'm quite sure they were well worded to ensure they retained the right to change these terms at any time. They would have stupid to have committed themselves to providing software indefinitely for hobby use without a fee. If they choose to offer a free version then they have the right to define the terms terms and available functionality.

    Quote Originally Posted by ihavenofish View Post
    That's why its a mess and highlights the mistake in their original business model for fusion (this is adesks fault, not tormachs to be clear).
    Without in depth knowledge of their business model it's impossible to say whether this was a mistake, an adaption or fully in line with their original business model!
    I don't consider this to be the fault of Autodesk or Tormach, rather that of the users expecting an American corporation to provide a free service indefinitely. I follow very little social media but I have to admit I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned any kind of response from Tormach, one way or the other. On the other hand, I believe anyone paying $19,250 for a machine excluding tooling, work-holding or ATC should be able to afford $300 for the necessary software to run it.
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    Default Re: New Fusion 360 limitations

    Apparently many are indeed upset (myself excluded). When you install any software you're greeted by the terms and conditions - I'm sure Fusion was no exception. Do you read them? Me neither
    There is a difference between "what can you legally do," and "what is the right thing to do."
    Unfortunately, tons of problems between people arise when they don't have a shared understanding of which of the two paradigms they cooperate under.

    And, to be frank, "what can you legally do" is only really a sustainable business when you either have people stretched over a barrel, or you're not looking for repeat business.

    FWIW, my purchase absolutely came with a .. 6 months? ... subscription to Fusion, that I never bothered activating. Don't know if they still do that, but I'm pretty sure there is at least SOME interaction between Tormach and Autodesk. Marketing needs to pay attention to all the channels, not just the single biggest channel, especially if they're trying to "punch up" against SolidWorks and Unigraphics/NX and such.



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    Default Re: New Fusion 360 limitations

    Quote Originally Posted by jwatte View Post
    FWIW, my purchase absolutely came with a .. 6 months? ... subscription to Fusion,...
    How long ago was that?
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