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  1. #61
    Member Kenny Duval's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Fusion 360 limitations

    Quote Originally Posted by TurboStep View Post
    I've just realized how reasonably priced Fusion 360 really is. I wanted to purchase a new TTS R8 collet from Tormach and wasn't expecting them to be cheap. The current price is $39.95. Shipping to Europe has always been expensive, even with USPS. Unfortunately they no longer list USPS shipping and for UPS they charge $134.72 UPS then charge an additional $25-$30 for the pleasure of actually delivering it. Add import taxes and the total price comes to around $217. Add a second collet and the shipping increases an additional $23!
    The Fusion subscription is suddenly looking like a real bargain.
    Step
    But here's the rub. Imagine next week after buying the tool holder that your next monthly payment on it was due and that since you are a happy customer making your payments on time it has been decided by someone arbitrarily that your tool holder can no longer be used to hold a ball end mill and you will only be able to run it at half the total RPM of your machine. Oh and by the way that tool holder will be costing you money every month whether you use it or not. That's the rub with cloud based subscription software. You just don't have enough control over it and the default forced position of save everything on our servers only makes that worse. I'm not paying a nickel until there is an option to turn off saving data in the cloud.



  2. #62
    Member kstrauss's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Fusion 360 limitations

    You forgot to mention the possibility that your tool holder was "upgraded" overnight and no longer fits your spindle. Or since you installed a fixture plate you need a new license key for your tool holder.



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    Default Re: New Fusion 360 limitations

    UPS then charge an additional $25-$30 for the pleasure of actually delivering it.
    Pretty sure it's the "pleasure" of sending it through customs, not actually delivering it. If it was just documents, they don't charge that extra cost.



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    Default Re: New Fusion 360 limitations

    I'm back! Or at least STEP export is back in Fusion 360 personal That's not enough for me but check out the latest video from Lars for more info:




    Quote Originally Posted by jwatte View Post
    Pretty sure it's the "pleasure" of sending it through customs, not actually delivering it. If it was just documents, they don't charge that extra cost.
    Unfortunately that's not quite the case. The costs I listed were actually rather conservative as I've successfully avoided the ridiculous UPS prices for the last few years (with the exception of Digi-key which appear to have a very special agreement) so I don't have any more accurate values. Once burned twice shy. I just wanted to point out that life is doesn't always run the way we would like but we just have to adjust and take the route that best suits each individual.
    Step



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    Member kstrauss's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Fusion 360 limitations

    Yes, STEP is back for now. But tool change, rapids and 4th axis are not. I find it somewhat insulting that Lars would suggest that time doesn't matter to a hobbyist and regaining rapids would just be a matter of using an editor to change G1 to G0.



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    Member Kenny Duval's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Fusion 360 limitations

    Quote Originally Posted by kstrauss View Post
    Yes, STEP is back for now. But tool change, rapids and 4th axis are not. I find it somewhat insulting that Lars would suggest that time doesn't matter to a hobbyist and regaining rapids would just be a matter of using an editor to change G1 to G0.
    That depends. It sounded initilally like you'd only be able to post out one tool at a time. That indicates to me that anything with a different tool number would have to be posted as a seperate file. That leave at best a two step process of copying and pasting code into a new file and editing for M06 T# and H# and addgin G0 where needed to bring back rapids. Quite frankly if they had just left the rapids alone and put in the dingle tool number posting that probably would have been enough of a hurdle for the higher end commercials users to not bother trying to cheat the system. I do all my tool pathing in the evening hours so stitching together some for tool changes and rapids in the end really won't bother me much as a hobbyist. It will make those "oops" i got it wrong reposts a pain in the ass though.



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    Default Re: New Fusion 360 limitations

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny Duval View Post
    ...and editing for M06 T# and H#
    I'm still confused about what will actually remain. In the video Lars appeared to imply that all the code could be posted and the M6 could be added manually. But what happens if a change is made but a tool change is forgotten in the re-posted code? Will the machine continue with the next op using the tool from the previous op? I hope not because this could easily lead to broken tools and potentially injury.
    I guess we'll find out in a few days.
    Step



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    Default Re: New Fusion 360 limitations

    I get why this is a big issue, losing any functionality affects workflow and capabilities may be affected by losing features , but there were options before 2013, when Fusion was introduced, and there probably will be workarounds for these limitations. I qualified for a startup license but choose to buy it since it was so inexpensive compared to other options and is such a big part of me being able to step up from manual machining to CNC, being able to learn and use fusion before owning a CNC machine and Pathpilot conversational opened the door for me. Luckily I have been able to create my parts for my use and make a few bucks making other parts that help offset the cost of CNC, which is more expensive than I ever first imagined it would be. I think if $300/yr is too expensive for someone to have a full featured CAD/CAM system then hand coding or editing tool changes, rapids and pasting separate posts together will always be an option to get the workflow required. I think I fear most Fusion360 pricing being changed to be more inline with the other options available which I have found to be $2000-$4000 or more which puts it totally out of reach for me.



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    Default Re: New Fusion 360 limitations

    But what happens if a change is made but a tool change is forgotten in the re-posted code?
    You will crash.



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    Default Re: New Fusion 360 limitations

    Quote Originally Posted by jwatte View Post
    You will crash.
    Not necessarily. It depends how they choose to implement it. I wrote to Lars and he replied with "My understanding is that the M06 automatically gets replaced with an M00." Well that would solve tool changes but what about the setting of the initial tool? Replacing the first M6 with M0 wouldn't be too convenient.
    Step

    Last edited by TurboStep; 09-27-2020 at 04:56 AM. Reason: Screwed up the tool change commands :(


  11. #71
    Member kstrauss's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Fusion 360 limitations

    I'm certainly not a particularly knowledgeable Fusion user but it is my understanding that one can modify the post to fix bugs or provide special capabilities. If so, how could they force a replacement of M06 by M00? Wouldn't it be a trivial one-time change to substitute a working post for the crippled one?



  12. #72
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    Default Re: New Fusion 360 limitations

    The free version must either completely ignore any tool change code in the post, or search for the M6 and swap it out??

    Gerry

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  13. #73
    Member kstrauss's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Fusion 360 limitations

    Both of the possibilities that you mention are problematic for Autodesk. For example, how do they "search" for M06 in your gcode? With LinuxCNC (PP) you could set a numbered or global named variable to the desired tool number and invoke a subroutine on disk to change tools -- no M06 in your generated gcode. If they don't let your post know about a tool change then Lars assertion is obviously incorrect. My guess is that the original description of the change is correct: Lars is incorrect, you can only post a single toolpath at a time and the tool number is never passed to the post.

    Only a few days before we know! That said, what will prevent future Fusion changes to deal with clever hacks that circumvent their restrictions as initially implemented?



  14. #74
    Community Moderator ger21's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Fusion 360 limitations

    not in your g-code, but internally or in the post when exporting the g-code. Basically modifying post behavior or "blocking" sections of it?

    Haven't paid much attention to this, as I pay $300/year.

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  15. #75
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    Default Re: New Fusion 360 limitations

    ...basic geometry only. No Feeds, Speeds, or M codes would be about as low as it can go. Right?



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    Default Re: New Fusion 360 limitations

    Step files are back because the printer community was cursing Autodesk any and every place they could find to complain.
    The subtractive crowd is easier to ignore.*
    *and I suspect a more likely source of payments

    Anyone who says "It only goes together one way" has no imagination.


  17. #77

    Default Re: New Fusion 360 limitations

    I do wonder how many large commercial companies actually use F360. I know nothing of this but my guess is the larger portion use the big/expensive names. Where do they make the bulk of there cash? The other programs they offer? There are a lot of companies that make their hardware and tooling available for F360, they have got to be making money off that? Machine manufacturers no doubt. I think cycle start is right, enough people complained and they had to listen. What happens if they find they actually lose users and don't gain the subscriptions they anticipated? Do they back peddle? Do they make concessions? I need F360 and I don't make money off it, but I am going to avoid buying a a subscription as long as possible. If this does more damage than good for Fusion, I'm hoping they listen a bit closer to the hobbyist crowd. Honestly if they want a bigger part of the commercial crowd, their best best is the students and hobbyist.
    I'm not sure the push lately, but I received similar from IFTTT (not sure if anyone uses it, but a similar crowd (Arduino/home automation) will be pressed. People have got to make money, I understand that, but this feels more wrong than right. We'll see, I'm sure, but their has to be a voice and value at these hobbyist forums. Do the hobbyist forums get together and send some sort of well written letter? Some people made their purchases based on the information out there. I felt good about Tormach largely b/c of their connection with F360 and the channels on youtube. Those years and 100's if not 1000's of videos lose some value as F360 isn't a no brainer freebie for hobbyist and people are welcome to correct me, but Tormach is namely a hobbyist machine.



  18. #78
    Member popspipes's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Fusion 360 limitations

    I often wonder if anyone who works for Autodesk reads these forums? Just seems to me to be negative advertising, I sure wouldnt subscribe after reading all these posts.

    I use Rhino 4 and Sprutcam 7, both are old programs but I bought once back in 2012 and they still work fine......... Sprut does have a bug or three but over the years I have learned to deal with that.

    I just dont like rental software no matter how good it is, just me....... I also dont like anything cloud based.

    mike sr


  19. #79
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    Default Re: New Fusion 360 limitations

    Autodesk had a similar problem with REVIT this summer for similar issues resulting in an uproar in the architecture community. So this is their current strategy. Free samples, Build a market, exploit it until it evaporates, change the rules, kill product, repeat. This is the same strategy used to market methamphetamines or crack cocaine. Of course, no company is going to rush out with a FREE cad/cam program but this behavior does leave a wide opening for Dassault and other companies with long range ambitions and a reputation for truthfulness. This year AD is targeting hobby folks, next year it will work up the food chain where the score can really change. Plus, they get multiple bites as they push folks higher and higher up in cost tiers......AD should hope this mess with paying customers doesn't get enough press to get a large tech company (Tesla, Google, etc) interested in their market.

    More importantly, does Tormach, Prusa, Makerbot, etc read these posts? I'm wondering if these folks have even more to lose and more importantly when will they come up with a bulk license or brand specific license like Tormach has with Sprut? I would see these and further changes are a threat to them. Of course, they would be smart not to negotiate with AD, since they have proven to be a slippery target. This is where Solidworks and other professional platforms could gain market share with real organic growth and limited investment. I'm sure that as a hobbiest, I would be happy with a 3 or 5 year old obsolete version of a professional package, especially if it didn't involve monthly "upgrades" and resultant learning curve. In the case of Tormach it would be simple to limit their product to toolpaths of a certain horsepower or work envelope.


    I suppose there are 10-100 times more 3d printers sold than cnc machines, when does AD do the math on that? Give it to the kids and the military. It worked for big tobacco.

    Last edited by samstu; 09-27-2020 at 11:05 PM.


  20. #80
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    Default Re: New Fusion 360 limitations

    If there aren't that many companies using Fusion, then so much the more reason to find another revenue stream to keep the team alive...

    I actually don't have a problem paying for software that fulfills needs for me. I'm actually much more annoyed with the way this was rolled out, and how it compared to previous expectation setting, than with the actual paying. It's enough that I have to check the balance before pressing "pay" but it's not out of my league per se.

    That being said, KiCad is so nice for schematic capture and PCB design -- much better than Eagle, that I paid for before, and then Autodesk bought it, and invalidated my license... I didn't pay for that again! I wish there was something like KiCad, for 3D CAD / CAM. FreeCad CAM workbench seems to be almost entirely for "sweep ball endmills over a profile to make pretty wall hangings" 2.5D workflow, from everything I've been able to see.



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