New Fusion 360 limitations

[Dozer56]

Fusion360 says -

[mountaindew]

CAD/CAM software is a tool just like a mill or lathe. In fact it's a very important part of the workflow. In the age of freeware I think many people believe software can be downloaded so it must be free, but a package like Fusion is complex and expensive to develop and maintain. We users have had it good for a number of years but I'm sure the free version has been exploited by many companies using it to make good money but they don't seem to be receiving much criticism here.

I started to use Fusion when Alibre conveniently "lost" their license server. The only way to ensure I could continue to use the product would have been to buy a new license. Today a comparable Alibre license would cost me around $1750. Maintenance for subsequent years costs a further $700 per year. That gives me only CAD and with fewer features than Fusion.
My last Sprutcam maintenance update cost me $376 back in 2016 (maybe that's changed since). Again, that's only for CAM.

I checked all "quality" alternatives but all were far too expensive. Fusion still comes out top whether free or $800 for 3 years for CAD and CAM. Now with PCB design included I also have the advantage of larger prints with more than 2 layers in the same package.

Someone on this forum once said that if we wanted a cheap hobby we should take up knitting. CNC Machining is not cheap an we shouldn't expect it to be. I'm always amazed how people would buy a fixture plate (which 99% don't need), or the servo upgrade without blinking an eye, but software has to be free. I don' thin anyone expects Tormach to supply free toolholders for hobby use only, so why should software be any different?

Having said that, I wonder if Tormach might be able to negotiate a Tormach specific version at a reduced price with at least support for tool changes? I'd still probably have to go for the full package but it might be interesting for a lot of other Tormach users.

Step

This about says it all.
Do some math and its not hard to figure out this is still a good deal.
Non cloud software and subscription base is also expensive. Easy to spend $1000.00 each or more for cad and cam. Total of $2000.00 just to get started.
It takes a 5 year window to get to a comparable cost. $2000.00 / 5 years =400.00 a year and that is when you isolate the software and never update it.
Cloud based Subscription would have been updated during this time and often have major improvements. Making that very attractive cost over time.
Also, In my opinion if you isolate the software you will get at best 8 years of use before O.S. changes make it obsolete anyway.
This is cheaper but your stuck there with no path forward for all the time spent learning and building widget libraries.
So If you own you still need to update and this costs on average $300-$500 per year and that alone cost more.
For me I dont want to strand or isolate years of experience and widget libraries.
Bottom line cad and cam are important tools and require investment imho, because these machines are boat anchors without them.
So either way its pay up sucker !


PS: Hard to find a free lunch these days.
Also imho a Tormach specific version would be a headache for all parties involved! "I have long term experience" lol

[BGHansen]

My dad was a private pilot and owned a Mooney 201 single engine retractable. Buddies would ask what it cost for the annual, updated Jebsons (airport approach plates), hanger fee, gas prices, etc. He'd tell them if you gotta ask, pick a different hobby. I'm afraid it's the cost of doing business even if you're not running a business.

Bruce

[kstrauss]

Mountaindew, your analysis assumes that the cost and capability of an annual Fusion subscription is unchanged for 5 years. Consider the impact of further capability restrictions and price increases. What if next year the hobby paid version no longer has 4th axis support? What if support for rapids requires a more expensive licence?

[shineworld]

Get a user used to free tools (subject to well-described reservations) and when he can no longer do without them, make sure that he gradually switches to the paid version ... These are correct and understandable commercial policies.
The hobby user base helped the product development.
In any case they are still to be thanked since so far they have given a lot for free ...

PS: google translated so could be there are sore mistakes

[kstrauss]

Get a user used to free tools (subject to well-described reservations) and when he can no longer do without them, make sure that he gradually switches to the paid version ... These are correct and understandable commercial policies.

Perhaps "understandable commercial policies" but probably illegal under US anti-trust laws if they result in diminished competition.

[TurboStep]

STEP is a common import format for other CAD. What other CAD imports .F3d ? I don't know.
What imports best into FreeCad ? STEP
STEP disappears as an export format from Fusion soon.
Looks like I'll be busy.

Apparently it will stïll be possible to export in step format using some form of web interface until January 2021:
You can still export your designs as STEP file formats via Fusion Team. This workflow will remain valid until Jan 19, 2021.

Perhaps "understandable commercial policies" but probably illegal under US anti-trust laws if they result in diminished competition.

I'm sure they have a whole team of lawyers worling on their licensing terms and conditions, especially in the USA, so I'd be surprised if they haven't covered that one.

Perhaps now would be a good time to look for a cheap second hand MX - or even a HAAS - from those who can no longer afford the software needed to run them
Step

[cyclestart]

Apparently it will stïll be possible to export in step format using some form of web interface until January 2021:
You can still export your designs as STEP file formats via Fusion Team. This workflow will remain valid until Jan 19, 2021.

Okay, thanks for the info as it relates to a thread I just posted..

[soofle616]

Mountaindew, your analysis assumes that the cost and capability of an annual Fusion subscription is unchanged for 5 years. Consider the impact of further capability restrictions and price increases. What if next year the hobby paid version no longer has 4th axis support? What if support for rapids requires a more expensive licence?

No intention of starting an argument, you make a valid point regarding possible future price increases. However, that same risk applies to any package. Even the top level programs can have price increases or release new modules that take over features that used to be included in a lower level product. This leads to a good argument for perpetual licenses so you pay once and "own" it rather than having to pay a renewal for a given time frame but I would say the days of perpetual software licenses are over. Nothing is purchased and done anymore. If it's not a cloud solution that requires monthly or annual renewal, its a desktop app that still requires a license renewal every year or it stops working (mastercam).

[mountaindew]

No intention of starting an argument, you make a valid point regarding possible future price increases. However, that same risk applies to any package. Even the top level programs can have price increases or release new modules that take over features that used to be included in a lower level product. This leads to a good argument for perpetual licenses so you pay once and "own" it rather than having to pay a renewal for a given time frame but I would say the days of perpetual software licenses are over. Nothing is purchased and done anymore. If it's not a cloud solution that requires monthly or annual renewal, its a desktop app that still requires a license renewal every year or it stops working (mastercam).

Currently nothing I use stops working if I dont update each year. kstraus has a valid point with cloud software when you dont renew you have nothing but files. owned software you can always dedicate hardware and keep it working for many years after your maintenance laps. And still use and access the files. still my math says this is 2x the cost for a very long time.

[kstrauss]

There are still perpetual licences from some companies. For example with Vectric software, bug fixes and point versions are free for a year. They have a major upgrade every 12-18 months for $100-200. You can skip major upgrades and eventually become current for the same cost. Their software doesn't "phone home" to confirm the licence, all files and the software are stored locally, it works on WinXP to Win10, support actually responds to emails and there is a user forum, etc. There is an excellent preview, thread milling, good support for engraving text, some drag knife support, etc. The bad news is that the CAM doesn't do HSM toolpaths.

[warrenb]

There is NOTHING that competes with the Fusion subscription for what it does for $300 a year.

[ger21]

For example with Vectric software, bug fixes and point versions are free for a year. They have a major upgrade every 12-18 months for $100-200. You can skip major upgrades and eventually become current for the same cost. Their software doesn't "phone home" to confirm the licence, all files and the software are stored locally, it works on WinXP to Win10, support actually responds to emails and there is a user forum, etc. There is an excellent preview, thread milling, good support for engraving text, some drag knife support, etc. The bad news is that the CAM doesn't do HSM toolpaths.

While they kind of do the same thing, Vectric's software can't do 90% of what Fusion 360 does. And if you look at Aspire, the one with the most features, it's $2000, and $400 to upgrade every other year. You could use Fusion 360 for over 10 years and it would still be cheaper than Aspire.

But there are some things that Vectric's software does better than Fusion 360.

[Kenny Duval]

I'm not happy about it but I understand it. I hate...hate...hate SaaS. This will probalby push me out of the hobby as I don't machine regularly enough to justify paying for software for months that isn't being used. I'm not in the habit of just setting money on fire every month. If I burn it in the fireplace I'll at least get to be warm.

[kstrauss]

While they kind of do the same thing, Vectric's software can't do 90% of what Fusion 360 does.
But there are some things that Vectric's software does better than Fusion 360.

I didn't mean to suggest that Vectric's software could do everything that Fusion 360 does! On the other hand VCarve Desktop ($349 one time purchase) in conjunction with a 2D CAD package such as FreeCAD does 95% of what I want to do. And Cut2D Desktop ($149 one time purchase) does most every 2.5D thing that I want. My intent was to show that there are still a few vendors who let you use their software forever without paying annual fees or losing features with two week's notice.

You somewhat mislead regarding prices. For engineering (non-artsy) work there is rather little to gain by going to Aspire ($1995). The Pro versions of VCarve and Cut2D allow work sizes larger than 24x24 inches but few additional capabilities (most of us have somewhat smaller work envelopes). The latest major version upgrade was $90 for VCarve and $50 for Cut2D which is somewhat less than the $400 that you mentioned.

[FastFarmer]

kstrauss, I don't/wouldn't use Vectric or Autodesk for CAD but if VCarve added proper 4th axis indexing/machining and adaptive toolpaths then I would be happy to use it, Until then no truer word has been spoken than this -

There is NOTHING that competes with the Fusion subscription for what it does for $300 a year.

[kstrauss]

kstrauss, I don't/wouldn't use Vectric or Autodesk for CAD but if VCarve added proper 4th axis indexing/machining and adaptive toolpaths then I would be happy to use it, Until then no truer word has been spoken than this -

I agree. Adaptive tool paths seems unlikely since I doubt that it would help most wood workers. Fourth axis indexing would be applicable to both metal and wood so maybe it will make its way to the top of their new features list. There is support for wrapping toolpaths around a rotary job. Depending on your project, using their two-sided capability together with some tweaks to the post might help.

Isn't all 4th axis support being dropped from the hobby version of Fusion?

[FastFarmer]

I didn't see that. I thought the only change in CAM was no rapids?

Wrapping on Vcarve also has a way to go. Fusion 360 indexing is great, but the rotary wrapping is just as great. You can wrap sections, select entry/exit points, do adaptive, horizontal & vertical machining, and also do rest machining on the wrap.

The interface is better too keeping the 3D model, rather than flattening it and displaying it in 3D.

[kstrauss]

My understanding is that changes include no rapids, no 4th axis, single tool per gcode file, no STEP export and no DXF export. If I am correct then their CAM would be useless and one cannot utilize any other CAM software due to export restrictions. Thankfully, I haven't yet invested enough hours into learning Fusion and I could easily be wrong.

[Kenny Duval]

No that pretty much covers it.