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  1. #21
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    Default Re: What ToolSetter do you use?

    Quote Originally Posted by deadlykitten View Post
    hello yesterday, i was a bit in a rush, but i liked the photo shared by kenny

    pls, what means : tts ( post #2), ets ( #4 ), pdb ( #9 ) , tlo uccnc ( #11 )

    ok, back to tool ( offset ) and part zeroing ( program zero ) :

    1) shifting axis origins ( kind of grid shift )
    1.1) z offsets on mills = distance ( tool nose , spindle face )
    1.2) z offsets on lathe = distance ( tool nose , turret face )
    1.3) program z0 on mills = distance ( part face , table )
    1.4) program z0 on lathe = distance ( part face , spindle face )
    * all this allows to :
    ... declare offsets and programZ0 only with a (depth) caliber ( which comes in handy, for example, if you can not use the tool setter in the middle of a job )
    ... syncronize machining cabinet with tool presseting equipment, and/or virtual cabinets inside simulation software ( like someone said, i like to declare Z0 when sitting comfortable at my desk, and not being near the machine ... i can do it remote )
    ... build confidence, since program zeros and tool offsets, no longer represent a random number, but an absolute distance, that can be checked inside the machine

    like this, one should be able to estimate absolute distances inside the machine ( between tool edge, part, fixture, walls, and working area limits, etc ), only by looking at the coordinates displayed, and without looking inside the cabinet; obviously, is not a must to work like this ... for example, i can draw machine position with 0.1 accuracy, only by looking at the coordinates displayed on screen ... and viceversa ( pre-simulation; so far only for machining planes, likes xy xz zc, etc, not fancy random 3d perspectives )

    2) pls check attached image, i hope it makes sense <0.01 accuracy

    3) a while ago, i read a post from someone that used paralel glass lens on the part face ( or whatever reference surface ), a source of a light, and was able to detect contact between tool nose and lens, only by watching how fringes were changing

    kindly

    ps : i saw later that this is a tormach thread, i don't know, maybe is ok ... why is this forum called " personal ... tormach personal" ? is like the machine is your friend, or something ...
    Thanks for posting DK. Some interesting comments there. Your cantilever toolsetter design has some advantages - the overhang gives it potential for impact tolerance! But spindle nose measurement may present clearance issues.

    Personal CNC I think derives from PC - Personal Computer. Cliff



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    Default Re: What ToolSetter do you use?

    Quote Originally Posted by mountaindew View Post
    Good video as always Cliff
    You had my attention when showing the blue colored mechanical tool setter. I have looked at those in pictures and always wondered how you zeroed them.
    Most the time I use old normal offline surface plate measurement of TTS tool offsets combined with Electronic or Hamier probe for xyz machine offsets on mill.
    The 24r Router I use an ETS to measure and set all collet held tools heights combined with Electronic probe, laser, or tool to set xyz machine offsets. In addition an ETS can also be used to set machine offset z by moving it to top of material and touching off tool and subtracting ETS height. The Sprutcam post Tormach provided for the 24r generates the code commands to automate the entire process. I just run program, change tools in collets and press buttons. IMHO much like a PDB is required on the mill, an ETS is required for a collet tool held system like routers or high speed spindles. Without one every tool change would require manual touch off and set of tool heights. This would make accuracy and repeatability questionable not to mention driving a user nuts changing tools in complex programs.

    Foot note: Mill or router if I chase accuracy in part results its almost always on the z axis

    I asked this question before. What is the standard for measuring taper tool holders, surface plate/ height guage, ETS, laser or other?
    Thanks. I see now that for Routers with non fixed collet type tool heights ETS makes real sense.

    I suppose you have a higher end ETS to get reliability?

    Re your last question, on high end machines it is ETS. Low end machines is not really standardized. Cliff



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    Default Re: What ToolSetter do you use?

    Quote Originally Posted by ally-g View Post
    I always use the TTS-JT1 drill arbor as my tool 0.This avoids having to remove the collet to set zero and takes care of compression errors etc.It also allows me to sit my manual tool setter on top of a vise or anywhere there is room and quickly set tool 0 to zero and then set a new tool length.The length of that arbor is shorter than anything I use.
    Makes sense! Thanks Cliff



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    Default Re: What ToolSetter do you use?

    Quote Originally Posted by keen View Post
    Thanks. I see now that for Routers with non fixed collet type tool heights ETS makes real sense.

    I suppose you have a higher end ETS to get reliability?

    Re your last question, on high end machines it is ETS. Low end machines is not really standardized. Cliff

    The ETS is the one that Tormach sells with the router system. It does not appear to be super precise overall but still well within tolerance for work done with a gantry router system.
    The real utility comes from fast consistent tool height setting all day long. Without an ETS the user would need to touch off and set each tool height manually. This works but makes Z tool heights impossible to get consistent from tool to tool and time consuming to touch off and set also. And even with an ETS it takes time to travel 200 ipm to ETS location "me to change tool" touch off new tool and move back to work area and start. I have a habit of using a minimum of 4 operations starting with surface, profile, rest, and chamfer. This requires 4 tool changes for any given setup and doing this manually would not be fun at all.
    Side note the 24r has 2 ports. One port for ETS and one for E Probe. My pcnc 1100 has only 1 port and currently has 4th axis hal connected.



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    Default Re: What ToolSetter do you use?

    Hi Cliff. Yes it has a sprung loaded plunger Drawing should be self explanatory. Metal plate added to torch base to complete circuit.What ToolSetter do you use?-p1020522-jpg



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    Default Re: What ToolSetter do you use?

    How is overtravel handled?



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    Default Re: What ToolSetter do you use?

    There is about 3mm of over travel which I find is plenty when manually touching off. As soon as contact is made with the tool the light comes on. Have used it hundreds of times and never bottomed the plunger out.



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    Default Re: What ToolSetter do you use?

    Very nice video Cliff. Here's mine: https://www.instagram.com/p/B1IHwrtALdS/

    I hacked together an ETS about a year ago, but I mostly just use the height gauge for offline tool length offset now. Repeatability is very high (+/-0.01mm) as long as some care is given. With power drawbar, the tool length is very consistent.

    Setting the tool length with ETS has one down side, the spindle thermal growth means I cannot reliably setup the tool length reliably. It depends a lot on when I measure it. And using the ETS means I have to unplug my Hallmark ITTP. Not ideal. ??



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    Default Re: What ToolSetter do you use?

    Snecx,

    No idea how important it is to you to have both tools plugged in at the same time, but a company called Millfast sells a port duplicator. I have never used one, just saw it on their website, millfast.com.

    Other folks may have similar products, but this in the only one I've seen.

    Terry

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails What ToolSetter do you use?-img_2116-228x228-jpg  


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    Default Re: What ToolSetter do you use?

    MFchief, I was really considering that. I decided it wasn't any better for my process so now I set and measure tools offline. It is actually faster than I do with the ETS. Haha.



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    Default Re: What ToolSetter do you use?

    Here is another video of my journey into toolsetters. Please keep posting.

    Cheers Cliff





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    Default Re: What ToolSetter do you use?

    Cliff,

    I was inspired by the Edge Tech design. I did while I was thinking about it take into account the large pad and the errors that can be induced if it is not perfectly level across the surface in relation to the spindle and table. That's why I chose to use a smaller pad and then lap in the surface as accurately as I could. The further you move out form the centerline of the indicator the more error you could induce in the measurement. Also in thinking about it the accuracy of locating the dial indicator into the holder needs to be taken into account. If it is not square with the axis you could introduce a small amount of error there as well. I press fit my indicator in but you can see how that is fraught with peril as well. I do plan to make a second one and that one will get bolted in using the backing plate screw locations on the indicator. The one I made is still more accurate than I am capable of machining at the moment given my skill set.

    I did just think about doing the simple thing and ordering one from Edge but then I wouldn't have learned anything but how to use a credit card to place an order. Making one made me sit down and think through it and gave me a chance to put into practice the skill set I am trying to learn.

    One thing I'd like to point out and will do on the second one I make is you are correct. You don;t need and idicator with that much travel. I'm only using 2.5mm or .100 of travel for measurement purposes so the plunger could be much shorter reducing the overall height of the device. I built that one around a dial indicator I had on hand.



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    Default Re: What ToolSetter do you use?

    A few early morning comments for your consideration and criticism:
    It seems to me that the critical aspect is to have the touch platform parallel to the mill table rather than to have the DTI shaft perpendicular to the table. It might be easier to make the top tiltable rather than worrying about how the DTI is oriented.

    What is the internal mechanism of DTI based setters such as https://www.amazon.com/Mitutoyo-950-...dp/B002SG7R1O/ ? They are clearly a different design from the one disassembled by Keene in his latest video. Are they more accurate?

    What is the mechanism of the very expensive tool height setters sold by Renishaw and others for upscale VMC use? How accurate are they?

    There are electronic tool setters that use a LED to indicate contact. See https://www.amazon.com/NEWTRY-Magnet...dp/B073GZFJ6X/ and https://www.amazon.com/Accuszie-0-00...dp/B00PWCY4FS/ for examples. Keene hasn't mentioned these. How do they compare to the DTI type in terms of a reproducible trigger point ?

    How about using the Renishaw 3-ball/6-cylinder kinematic restraint mechanism that is often used in touch probes? This should eliminate the errors from the touch plate wobble that Keene illustrated in Video 2. A little electronics or a simple switch would be required to prevent battery drain when not in use since the contacts are normally closed.

    How about using a flexure hinge design with DTI to achieve parallel motion with zero wobble?

    Just a few thoughts before my second morning java. Comments welcome!

    Last edited by kstrauss; 07-01-2020 at 10:59 AM.


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    Default Re: What ToolSetter do you use?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny Duval View Post
    Cliff,

    I was inspired by the Edge Tech design. I did while I was thinking about it take into account the large pad and the errors that can be induced if it is not perfectly level across the surface in relation to the spindle and table. That's why I chose to use a smaller pad and then lap in the surface as accurately as I could. The further you move out form the centerline of the indicator the more error you could induce in the measurement. Also in thinking about it the accuracy of locating the dial indicator into the holder needs to be taken into account. If it is not square with the axis you could introduce a small amount of error there as well. I press fit my indicator in but you can see how that is fraught with peril as well. I do plan to make a second one and that one will get bolted in using the backing plate screw locations on the indicator. The one I made is still more accurate than I am capable of machining at the moment given my skill set.

    I did just think about doing the simple thing and ordering one from Edge but then I wouldn't have learned anything but how to use a credit card to place an order. Making one made me sit down and think through it and gave me a chance to put into practice the skill set I am trying to learn.

    One thing I'd like to point out and will do on the second one I make is you are correct. You don;t need and idicator with that much travel. I'm only using 2.5mm or .100 of travel for measurement purposes so the plunger could be much shorter reducing the overall height of the device. I built that one around a dial indicator I had on hand.
    Hi Kenny. Received my mini dial indicator yesterday. I am thinking along similar lines. Please post some pics when you have made your mk2. Cliff



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    Default Re: What ToolSetter do you use?

    Hi Kstrauss. Good points, thanks.

    Yes I have looked at that Mitutoyo indicator. Hmm...complex way to make one.

    I know the early Renishaw toolsetter was based off its probe design, (yes the "Renishaw 3-ball/6-cylinder kinematic restraint mechanism that is often used in touch probes?" ) but they may have advanced past that now. Not sure.

    I don't like the LED style because unlike a dial indicator, you cannot see progress until you are there. Seems too sudden to achieve accuracy quickly?

    Cheers Cliff



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    Default Re: What ToolSetter do you use?

    Yes, I agree that for manual use the sudden too high/too low transition of the LED units is undesirable and slows measurements. On the other hand it eliminates any ambiguity and it is easy to add overtravel protection so no harm is done.



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    Default Re: What ToolSetter do you use?

    Hi Cliff, the LED style tool height setter might take a few more seconds. Move the tool down till the light comes on, move it up till the light goes off, then jog it down till the light comes on again. Done. One can also feel the resistance on the tool against the spring by jiggling the setter sideways as a double check. It works for me and probably many others.
    I have not had any issues using this method. The platform on my setter is only 1/4" dia. Most of my tools I use are smaller than 6mm but on larger cutters I just come down on one flute of cutter without noticing any accuracy issues.
    On the mini dial indicator that you are converting, I am not sure if it is necessary to have a dia platform as large as your blue setter? How are you going to maintain a fixed height on your setter. Can you lock the dial or have you other plans!



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    Default Re: What ToolSetter do you use?

    Quote Originally Posted by keen View Post
    I know the early Renishaw toolsetter was based off its probe design, (yes the "Renishaw 3-ball/6-cylinder kinematic restraint mechanism that is often used in touch probes?" ) but they may have advanced past that now. Not sure.
    I'd been considering a Tormach ETS for quite some time and watched the price hike from under $800 to $1295 - it all went pretty quick too! I also tried a cheap ebay ETS but also found the quality far too poor. Finally I picked up one of these on ebay:

    What ToolSetter do you use?-renishaw_ts27r-jpg

    It's the older design but absolutely unused. A little over-the-top for a Tormach? Well not really, it cost me LESS than the pre-hike price of the Tormach ETS!
    The head rotates inside the black body and adjustment screws on the base both combine to allow the top of the head to be aligned with the machine. It has a replaceable "break stem" between the body and the vertical head to protect the probe against crashes (I bought a couple of additional replacements). Obviously this has capabilities beyond those of a simple ETS but they're not really much use on a Tormach, but that won't stop me playing around . I haven't actually tried it yet due to other priorities but I'll get around to it in the next week or two.
    Step



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    Default Re: What ToolSetter do you use?

    Nice! Any idea of the internals? Is it just a normal Renishaw MP3 turned on its side or something fancier? How do you adjust the test platform to be horizontal? Are the "break stems" the usual Renishaw 4mm male/female ceramic pieces or...?



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    Default Re: What ToolSetter do you use?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Roberts View Post
    Hi Cliff, the LED style tool height setter might take a few more seconds. Move the tool down till the light comes on, move it up till the light goes off, then jog it down till the light comes on again. Done. One can also feel the resistance on the tool against the spring by jiggling the setter sideways as a double check. It works for me and probably many others.
    I have not had any issues using this method. The platform on my setter is only 1/4" dia. Most of my tools I use are smaller than 6mm but on larger cutters I just come down on one flute of cutter without noticing any accuracy issues.
    On the mini dial indicator that you are converting, I am not sure if it is necessary to have a dia platform as large as your blue setter? How are you going to maintain a fixed height on your setter. Can you lock the dial or have you other plans!
    Hi John. I see, you pass though it and back up you find is quick. Makes sense.

    Re indicator fixed height design. Just at the research stage, a few options up in the air. Fixed buttons either side or a plunger lock, or maybe a movable block underneath.

    Cheers Cliff



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