About 20 Months Later - Would I Buy Another One? - PCNC1100

All of these work fine in PathPilot for the last 6 months at least. Upgrade (free) to 2.3.6 or later and you'll enjoy them also. The current work offset is shown right above the axis DROs for me. e.g. "POS IN G54" or "POS in G54.1 P500" for the new expanded 500 work offsets.

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[/COLOR][COLOR=#000000]"The clock disappears during a tool change. [/COLOR][COLOR=#000000]When you stop a program the display defaults back to line 1. It doesn't have any way that I see to show what work offset you are working in."

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[QUOTE=old-cnc-geek;2341136]All of these work fine in PathPilot for the last 6 months at least. Upgrade (free) to 2.3.6 or later and you'll enjoy them also. The current work offset is shown right above the axis DROs for me. e.g. "POS IN G54" or "POS in G54.1 P500" for the new expanded 500 work offsets.

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[/COLOR][COLOR=#000000]"The clock disappears during a tool change. [/COLOR][COLOR=#000000]When you stop a program the display defaults back to line 1. It doesn't have any way that I see to show what work offset you are working in."

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Ok. I've mostly been avoiding upgrading because I run sneaker net for transferring files, and I have been to lazy to want to re-enter all my tools in the tool table. I guess I'll have to look at it.

You don't lose your tool table or work offsets or anything else when you upgrade PathPilot versions. It's all saved and restored properly. Even if you move from PP 1.x to 2.x which involves a quick re-imaging of the internal drive.

3+ years in, and repairs have been minimal. I would buy another one except I really need something bigger. In fact for mid price middle weight machines I sometimes recommend them to other people as a good first machine.

1. I've had both Y-Axis way covers give up the ghost. Just a couple months ago. Replacements were pretty reasonably priced. Life of a fabric cover was reasonable.
2. I had to replace a homing switch. It was over priced so I bought one third party along with a couple spares. I can't comment on life, but it lasted a couple years in a flood environment. I only remember ever replacing one other similar switch across all my machines.
3. I had to replace the coolant pump fuse. It was not really the fuse's fault. I had written some iterative code that kept turning the coolant pump on and off in a short time period. Can't comment on cost. I have lots of spare fuses and I had one the right size. It was in one of the old metal tins from my dad's hardware store so it was probably a buck or two for a tin of five.

Not yet repairs:
1. I will probably have to repair the chip filter screen in the chip pan. Every time I clean it out it it seems to push down a little further.
2. The paint Tormach chose doesn't agree with something else. I would guess either my coolant or the way oil. I'm running SC520 at around 5-6% and Mobile Vactra#2 way oil. Same as I am running on all my other machines.

Accessories:
1. I would absolutely not buy another Tormach umbrella tool changer.
2. I would probably not buy another 6" rotary table 4th axis, but the one I have is adequate.

My real take away from this thread is that Bob has an unused ATC collecting dust. Any interest in unloading it?

[QUOTE=soofle616;2477000]My real take away from this thread is that Bob has an unused ATC collecting dust. Any interest in unloading it?[/QUOTE]

No I had an unused piece of **** collecting dust for a while. Somebody already bought it. I hope it did a good job of fertilizing their tomatoes.

[QUOTE=Bob La Londe;2477024]No I had an unused piece of **** collecting dust for a while. Somebody already bought it. I hope it did a good job of fertilizing their tomatoes.[/QUOTE]

Is it weird that I want one even more now!

Of the many criticisms of the Tormach that I have taken note of, the ATC has to be way down on the list. Bob got a lemon?

I don't spend as much time following these sort of things, but I read a number of criticisms of the Tormach tool changers in the past and I ignored them hoping I would be the exception who could use it day to day for lights out manufacturiing.

Maybe the ATC is better than it used to be but mine sure as heck was not. For the weekend warrior who doesn't spend every weekend machining it may be just fine, but for everyday use it was a failure for me. Worked great for a few months and then just started crashing and no matter what I did I couldn't get it to work. The stupid thing stole two weeks of my life while I tried to get the damn thing to work properly. Finally I just got to the point where I had to get parts done and I couldn't spend any more time screwing with it. I ripped it off the machine and within an hour was running parts.

Other issues. The air operated oiler doesn't oil. Periodically I'll pop loose the hose and let it blow air for a while until it finally picks up some oil, and then I'll operate the power draw bar a few times so it gets some. The filter separator leaks. When I am using shop air, but not the Tormach I turn off the valve to that machine. No risk of forgetting since I need air to use the power draw bar. The cabinet of course leaks. I blame atleast in part the buytil tape. I've built enclosures before with either 3M 5200 or DAP tub and tile clear Those enclosure do not leak. I have not see the new enclosures.

[QUOTE=CL_MotoTech;2339398]Yeah, +/- .005" isn't much of an endorsement.

That said, I'd probably buy an 1100 used. Definitely not new. It's not enough machine for the price to justify a new purchase.[/QUOTE]

That's 0.127mm in metric. That actually doesn't sound that great to me.
I bet you could by a similar sized manual mill, convert it "properly", C5 and servos, and get a better tolerance for 10k or less.
Prob higher power spindle in the process too.
Will take some effort though.

[QUOTE=Bob La Londe;2477114]I don't spend as much time following these sort of things, but I read a number of criticisms of the Tormach tool changers in the past and I ignored them hoping I would be the exception who could use it day to day for lights out manufacturiing.

Maybe the ATC is better than it used to be but mine sure as heck was not. For the weekend warrior who doesn't spend every weekend machining it may be just fine, but for everyday use it was a failure for me. Worked great for a few months and then just started crashing and no matter what I did I couldn't get it to work. The stupid thing stole two weeks of my life while I tried to get the damn thing to work properly. Finally I just got to the point where I had to get parts done and I couldn't spend any more time screwing with it. I ripped it off the machine and within an hour was running parts.[/QUOTE]

FWIW, I had one of the first TTS ATC beta units. After we got the beta bugs worked out, it worked fine for me.

But, I wasn't running lights-out production, just handfuls of prototype parts with half a dozen changes each for the most part. It would get frustrating when it got out of alignment or the plastic bolts stretched and it dropped tools or the PDB pressure wasn't set right. Those were rare but usually came in waves for some reason, so I can see why someone would stop using it if he needed parts now (btw, you can just delete out the tools and run manual changes without removing it. I did that a time or two).

These days I have an MX with BT30 ATC. That I would run production with (and it did before I got it. Making ATC parts for Tormach). BT30 fixed the rare random issues with the old beta TTS ATC that I had. The only issue I've had with it was a cheapo imported toolsetter generated so much electrical noise that the spindle orientation sensor would wig out.

I actually successfully ran the ATC unattended twice. Once over night, and once so I could get a job done and still get out with my wife. Most times I was in the shop, and once it started flaking out and crashing repeatedly I never successfully ran another job with it again. That was also about the same time (still under warranty) that the guys at Tormach tech support got to be pretty snotty and unhelpful. When they did offer help it was mostly redundant stuff I had already done and in some cases stuff I told them I had already done. Some of that was no doubt self brought on. I am not very tolerant of burning time in non productive back and forth interactions. Since then I have contacted Tormach tech support one time regarding an issue with the tail stock I used with my 4th axis rotary table. Their part did not fit in their tailstock. I had to buy a reamer to make it work. They compensated me for my trouble, so perhaps the bridge to Tormach tech support is not forever burnt.

If asked I would recommend against the Tormach umbrella tool changer. In fact I have. Somebody getting started doesn't need to deal with that headache, and Tormach doesn't give any discount for buying a package over buying parts separately. Once they are a more experienced and sophisticated user they can always buy it later. I often see responses to people's criticisms of various things like, "well mine was awesome," or "yeah lots of other people didn't have a problem." That's fine Lots of other folks may not have had a problem. That's good for them. Its sure as he11 not fine for the person that did have a problem, and its not good for the prospective user who won't find out about those who had problems. Its definitely not fine for the new person who is just going to be struggling to learn how to use their new machine. Save the money to replace broken tools, and decide later if its worth the risk.

Does not having an ATC cost me some time per job. Yes absolutely, but not as much as you think. I run jobs routinely that use as 9-20 tools. Most unfortunately are more than 10. I did design some jobs to use just ten tools, but time lost from inefficient tool usage is often more than the time lost to walk the ten steps from the desk in my office to the machine room and change the tool by hand. Currently I have 45 tools programmed, and I do use all of them, although some are in the back row of the top rack for medium carbon steel cutting only. Something I don't do often on the Tormach.

Ok... I told somebody on an FB group today (sales/tools guy for Syil I think) that if it was a choice between waiting on a Tormach or a Syil right now I'd wait on the Tormach. They tried the "that was a long time ago" schtick, but I wasn't having it. I doubt they will ever offer me a discount machine to shill for them. LOL. Of course now that they have Sexy Cyborg shilling for them they don't need me anyway. Sex sells. LOL.

The FB Syil groups are pretty awful. It seems like a bunch of people that aren't particularly good machinists crapping on everything that isn't a Syil. I believe they are great machines, but you pay for it. So I'm not sure why they get to feel so high and mighty.

I have 3 Syil machines, and they are NOT great machines. They all needed quite a lot of work. All had some on finished machining and assembly issues, and one had a bad broken or incompletely cast saddle. No parts inside either. It was assembled that way.

"That weas a long time ago. Give us one more chance." Um NO! Triple expletive no.

I use my Syils every day, but if I spent the money again today I would buy more Tormach machines instead.

I will spend the money again someday. Either rebuilding the Syils or replacing them with something else. Tormach has their issues, but the base machine wasn't not broken or incompletely assembled.

Very apropos to the title of this thread, it's beginning to look very much like I am about to have the opportunity to get into another machine (or two) within the next 3-12 months. I've had my 1100M (now an MX) for about 26 months now and during that time have added servos, BT30 spindle, homemade smartcool, homemade 4th axis, Rapidturn, SMW fixture plate, and TONS of tooling. I've gone from knowing literally nothing about CAM or CNC machining to being the primary programmer and fixture designer/fabricator for my employer and my work is now making hundreds of parts a week that we previously outsourced. All thanks to what I've learned operating my Tormach. The opportunity that is presenting itself could go a couple ways. In one future, I "inherit" a few excellent condition Haas machines, likely a DT1 and an ST20 but possibly a VF3. In another future, I end up with enough cash to purchase something. It's been said that the real test of any choice is making the same choice knowing full well what the consequences of it will be. Unless something dramatic changes over the next several months, I expect to be placing an order for another 1100MX and a SlantPro unless the inheritance comes through.
To be clear, no one is dying, I use the term inherit very loosely here.

I'm 2 months away from being 5 years into an 1100 s3. Prior to 2017, all my machining experience was on a 1974 Burke MVN (think 3/4 scale Bridgeport with 1/2 the features), so zero programming, although I was well versed in AutoCAD. I mostly prototype aluminum parts (so lots of 1-off's), but I do some production runs. My employer bought the machine as it was the best compromise between cost, work envelope, and a handful of other criteria.
I can honestly say I have only had one issue, which resolved itself with a disconnect/reconnect of the ATC power supply daughter board. Tormach tech support was very helpful and responded / got me going the same day.
I have an ATC, ETS, & 8" 4th axis. All have performed with no issue. I guess I did a good job aligning my ATC right out of the box.
My main b*tch with the machine, which I wish I would have known ahead of time, is the limitation of the R8 based TTS. I've managed to shear (and repair!) the key in the spindle getting greedy with the fly cutter, and roached several R8 collets learning the torque limits it can handle. The first great lesson inside week #1 with tool pullout was learned when a 1/4" lakeshore carbide corncob walked itself nearly 3/4" into the table. OOPS. I don't really mill with anything larger than 3/8" now and no longer run into any problems.
Bottom line of my "review" is limit your expectations and don't blame the machine for your own f*ckups. For made in China, I make parts all day long that are +/- 0.001. In aluminum, just change the temperature and measure again if it's not in that window ;).
I'd certainly be a buyer if a 2hp, servos & BT30 spindle upgrade became available for this thing.

[QUOTE=74BurkeMVN;2498800]I'm 2 months away from being 5 years into an 1100 s3. Prior to 2017, all my machining experience was on a 1974 Burke MVN (think 3/4 scale Bridgeport with 1/2 the features), so zero programming, although I was well versed in AutoCAD. I mostly prototype aluminum parts (so lots of 1-off's), but I do some production runs.

[/QUOTE]I specialize in 1 off custom work and often program and run upto 4 CNC mills simultaneously doing different jobs with a 5th prepping blanks. I've been doing it for a day or two. At the moment I just have three machines running parts. [quote]


My employer bought the machine as it was the best compromise between cost, work envelope, and a handful of other criteria.
I can honestly say I have only had one issue, which resolved itself with a disconnect/reconnect of the ATC power supply daughter board. Tormach tech support was very helpful and responded / got me going the same day.
I have an ATC, ETS, & 8" 4th axis. All have performed with no issue. I guess I did a good job aligning my ATC right out of the box.

[/quote]Well I am so happy for you that yours wasn't bent (turned out to be the problem according to the guy who bought it) and that you are so perfect. I am happy for you. I don't know how mine worked as well as it did for the first couple months. But I'm not the only one who has had issue with Tormach tool changers. I guess we all need to worship at your perfectfullness's feet and hope to some day be able to follow pretty damned simple instruction. [quote]


My main b*tch with the machine, which I wish I would have known ahead of time, is the limitation of the R8 based TTS.

[/quote]It has a limit, but I can help. Increase the spring stack and increase the air pressure to release it. I've been running the air cylinder slightly over pressure for a few years now to release my larger spring stack and the only problem was some debris I found inside the air cylinder that cause a leak when it wedge in a seal. That could have only gotten in there when it was assembled since my air goes through three filters and an air dryer before it gets to the machine. You can buy additional (bellville) spring washer from Tormach. They are not as cheap as elsewhere, but they are reasonable and you will know you have the same size springs. You can still walk out a larger endmill, but you can hear the difference in sound when its going to happen. Well if you have been doing it for atleast 2 or 3 days like I have.[quote]

I've managed to shear (and repair!) the key in the spindle getting greedy with the fly cutter, and roached several R8 collets learning the torque limits it can handle.

[/quote] That is quite an accomplishment. I think I push my Tormach pretty hard and I have not done either of those things.[quote]

The first great lesson inside week #1 with tool pullout was learned when a 1/4" lakeshore carbide corncob walked itself nearly 3/4" into the table. OOPS. I don't really mill with anything larger than 3/8" now and no longer run into any problems.

[/quote]That is weird. I've noticed LESS tendency to pull out with corn cobs than with regular 40ish degree aluminum helix end mills. I run a half inch rougher in aluminum almost everyday on the Tormach. I don't run it all that hard, but I probably have that roughinh operation programmed at one of the highest MRRs of any tool on the machine. I can take the same cut with a 1/2 inch Alumacut, but that will walk out of the machine runnign that hard.[quote]


Bottom line of my "review" is limit your expectations and don't blame the machine for your own f*ckups.

[/quote]And this was the line that decided me to reply. If I crash a tool or ruin a part I own it. Literally. I own the shop and everything it. I am not the only one who had issues with Tormach tool changers and in modern high production shops with modern large magazine machines umbrella tool changers in general are considered not as reliable as some other types.[quote]

For made in China, I make parts all day long that are +/- 0.001. In aluminum, just change the temperature and measure again if it's not in that window ;).
I'd certainly be a buyer if a 2hp, servos & BT30 spindle upgrade became available for this thing.[/quote]

Pretty sure you can spend your boss's money and make that upgrade if you really want to. I could spend my own money and upgrade if I really wanted to, but I get real value out of my Tormach just the way it is every workday and often seven days a week. I do own two frackups 100%. 1. I bought a Tormach tool changer when other owners warned me against it. I gambled I was going to be one of the lucky ones like you so I can sneer down my nose at those who had problems. Well, I wound up on the other end of the nose. 2. When it started crashing I wasted a week trying to make it work before I ripped it off the machine and got back to taking care of my customers.

As to the crack about Chinese machines. You don't know what you are talking about. Other small Chinese machines are not in the same league as a Tormach. I know. I've owned them and still own some and the Tormach is far superior. In fact I have three (3) Syil Speedmasters in the shop now that run everyday. I also had a Charter Oak RF45 class CNC machine. It took months to fix everything that was wrong with the Syil machines before I could run them. I NEVER got everything right with the COA RF45 before I scrapped it. I'm not talking about electronics and setup either. I'm talking bad casting, oil passages not drilled, ball screw spacers missing, bad fans and whole host of other things that had to be mechanically fixed or replaced. Heck, one ballscrew had bad fixed bearings fresh out of the crate. I had the Tormach setup in a week with no repairs (bad computer was replaced) while simultaneously running other machines, and it didn't come fully assembled like the Syils did.

Maybe you are as superior or I am as incompetent as you make out, but I own it and if I frack it up I still own it, because, well, I fracking own it. I don't have any choice. I was nice, but there are issue that very much Tormach should own. However I am not going to take it out on them because you come off like a snob. Overall I'd buy another Tormach. I would NOT buy another Syil or another COA (I don't even know if COA is still in business). IN FACT I HAVE RECCOMENDED TORMACH TO OTHERS AND ATLEAST ONE OF MY COMPETITORS I KNOW FOR A FACT BOUGHT ONE BASED ATLEAST IN PART BASED ON MY RECCOMENDATION. HE TOLD ME SO.

Interesting comments in this thread. I can fully acknowledge the Tormach is not a professional grade machine in terms of fit and finish. It really irks me in fact. BUT...
-I can easily hold .001" tolerances. As long as the machine is tuned up and you are machining with good practices, it's dead nuts every time.
-My ATC has worked flawlessly since day one with never a single issue. It has probably done several thousand tool changes by now.

Chip/coolant handling is a big complaint of mine. Climbing under the left side to deal with that stupid tank is the worst. And the coolant doesn't drain out, it pools on the uneven base. And the chips can't be fully cleaned out since they get stuck underneath.