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  1. #21
    Member mountaindew's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tormach 24R Router

    Quote Originally Posted by jwatte View Post
    The ShopBot controller is reasonably capable, but they gratuitously invented their own control language, almost entirely out of ignorance. when they started the business. It's not G-code.
    SB3 was the name I think , I remember it took me a while to figure out what I was looking at when I was reading their manuals.



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    Gold Member MichaelHenry's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tormach 24R Router

    Quote Originally Posted by mountaindew View Post
    Mike:
    8x12 would be great. Tormach sells a wheel kit also that looks like the ones you and others put on mills. That would make more compact overall because it could be setup near walls and used. Then if large material or more access is needed you could move it out into a work area. I don't have much problem with rust in general due to year round low humidity. That said I don't know what would rust on this machine. It has mostly all painted surfaces.
    I was thinking partly of the linear rails. I have what looks like the same sort of rail on a 400x600 laser that's been in my garage for the past 2-1/2 years and no corrosion on that to speak of.



  3. #23
    Gold Member MichaelHenry's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tormach 24R Router

    Quote Originally Posted by jwatte View Post
    The ShopBot controller is reasonably capable, but they gratuitously invented their own control language, almost entirely out of ignorance. when they started the business. It's not G-code.
    I have a friend that bought a used CNC Shark sold by Rockler and that apparently has quite a bit of proprietary stuff. I think that he regrets buying it. Lots of problems.



  4. #24
    Member mountaindew's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tormach 24R Router

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelHenry View Post
    I was thinking partly of the linear rails. I have what looks like the same sort of rail on a 400x600 laser that's been in my garage for the past 2-1/2 years and no corrosion on that to speak of.
    That is about the only exposed metal. From what I read in owners manual the guide block lube system theoretically keeps a fine film on them. The owners manual states to wipe them down with a clean rag about every day. Will keep an eye on them but rust has never been a big issue here.


    Jwatte , Mike
    In all my reading and research, I found most were proprietary at one level or another including Tormach. Some of the big industry models had g-code operation with long lists of added custom operations and automation accessories. In short almost a complete wood fab shop in front of you. About all you need is a place to assemble and finish your work. Impressive imho and I do have an understanding of what this takes. The machines also cost as much as a complete wood shop of decent grade commercial planer, joiner, table saw and shaper machines. Many of these machines required some training and some almost make it so you have to be trained by them. They keep most the documentation on how to use it a secret and I am guessing it is also a secret from the users. That way a business pays the tech support fees to get proficient. Not a new business model by any means

    I wanted and needed something more standard to get results with little or no training and if possible use tools and experience I have. With years of cad, cam, control and setup experience and overall workflow applied to a new machine takes all the mistakes and drama out. In no time your setup and doing your thing with little waste, damage and gut punches. Don't get me wrong! I love to learn new software and to have uber high performance machines cnc or manual. I am going to start migrating to fusion because it is so well supported with thousands of hours of free training and cost is attractive But at this point I still have cost and time tied up in my current Tormach system of Sprutcam, Ironcad, pp that I want to get use of and figured I would keep drinking their koolaid because it tastes ok.

    Side note: Some of the machines like shark and others had pendant controls that were kind of confusing to learn and operate. This was a major concern to me because I have limited finger dexterity. That said I do see the need for a complete hand held walk around control. I didn't think walking around the machine to a somewhat fixed control location for setting offsets and start operations would be so rough on me! Making complete pendant control or some other work flow almost a requirement for me sooner or later!

    Last edited by mountaindew; 02-01-2020 at 07:49 AM.


  5. #25
    Member mountaindew's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tormach 24R Router

    Just some basic information so far as an owner.
    Crate was to tall to fit under standard garage door by 1". Not a problem in decent weather.
    Method shown in manual for steel frame pallet removal works fine. I don't keep that much short wood blocking around so I used solid concrete landscape blocks.
    For me the machine was easy to setup, level, connect control, water cooler, bootup, update, network and then home and break in spindle. Maybe a couple hours at most for all that. Mill took me about a week to do same, so experience does pay off here also. Still unlike mill there is no real assembly required, just a few hoses cover panels, control- power cables, distilled water and your good to go. I went with their dust collection system to add to my collection. It was also easy to assemble and seams like its designed to run for hours and hours at a time "Very important because its easy to run router for hours and hours on complex programs". Something the shop vacs I have now are not very good at!
    The machine is about 6 weeks old now and filled 1 vac bag so far. Only drama at this point was some cutters I used for plastic fab in the past provided less then desirable results making a huge mess in a matter of seconds. And of courseI went on to do some testing and made an even bigger mess. Then changed to the razor sharp o flutes and all was good back to normal. I did crash an expensive 3 insert 1.5 inch surface bit into a alum toe clamp fixture I was using to hold a large board. It happened when the tool was ramping down to work area on far end and a toe clamp was sticking up in a non working area. Easy to avoid with options like vacuum table "nothing sticking up" and or quick code edits and better planning on my part.
    Overall the design and fabrication quality looks better then my 6 y.o. mill. The machine is accurate and performs near the inspection report and specifications. I can hear little ticks, clicks and little sounds in all the movements but nothing bad I don't think and most if not all go away after machine warms up. Spindle made some strange noises when breaking in but is now near silent at almost any speed with no cutter engagement. As mentioned above, I added a tool box with about 200lbs of weight to the base and I can still feel machine kind of jerk around a little at 100+ ipm when running code. Maybe thin rubber isolator on base pads would mitigate this and or more weight. The dust control boot on spindle could use some serious modification for ease of use. A problem I noticed with all but the largest most expensive machines. The little brix controller is slow to boot compared to mill but that has no noticeable effect on machine performance that I see so far. The usb expansion box may cause a tiny latency in controls but only noticeable if you have another to compare to. Changing tools in collets is slow and a pain compared to foot pedal operated pdb on mill.
    This takes all the fun out of using lots of different tool profiles to make your stuff.
    There is precision surfaces milled for future atc rack at one end along with air lines and control wire plugs in head for this future option. Also 4th axis is wired but no actual motor control is in cabinet. Guessing this will be sold with a 4th axis option like they did with mills just leaving me hoping it will be supported by Sprutcam. Machine also has some mounts at other end of machine, I'm guessing for some end joinery fixtures like I made and installed already or maybe some other option they might have in mind.

    That's about all I can think of right now . If you have some questions let me know I will do my best to answer

    This is an easy example and my opinion of some improvements Tormach has made in quality and support from my first machine purchase 6 years ago.

    Tormach 24R Router-tormachtoolbox-jpg

    This picture about says it all . One I received with mill 6 years ago and one I received with router 6 weeks ago. The quality is very different



  6. #26
    Gold Member MichaelHenry's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tormach 24R Router

    MD - Thanks for the added info. I might not have considered the crate height. Interesting mix of nice and limiting features. I'm still trying to figure out how to get $14+ use out of one as I don't usually do much WW. If you don't mind saying, what do you use your 24R for?



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    Default Re: Tormach 24R Router

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelHenry View Post
    MD - Thanks for the added info. I might not have considered the crate height. Interesting mix of nice and limiting features. I'm still trying to figure out how to get $14+ use out of one as I don't usually do much WW. If you don't mind saying, what do you use your 24R for?
    Cost was on the high side, I kind of thought same about a sbl15 or other cnc lathe! How much use can I get from a cnc lathe verse a manual lathe. But I Still want one and I have a spot for one in future
    Anyway I have wanted a large format cnc from day one! I have a number of ideas and cool projects on the drawing board that should be super fun. This format of machine imho is very versatile when you consider all the options and materials available now and in future. Wood work, joinery, sign making and engraving is of course on my list of fun stuff. I also enjoy working with plastic sheet material like abs, acrylic kydex. Having a large format cnc is almost required for decent detailed fabrication. Also having the option to use materials cut with a drag knife should add another level of detail to projects. Cut stencils, masking tapes for paint work, vinyl stickers, gasket material. CF, FG..... Maybe laser engraving on different materials in future might be cool. Another use I plan and mentioned above is making release molds for fiber glass, carbon fiber and or other gel coat fabrication type work. There are a number of sheet materials that machine in a router format for this and provide me yet another way to create. The list of my ideas goes way past wood work
    As we speak Im getting ready to do some high precision milling of Styrofoam go figure. I have a couple rc drone plane designs to play with and test. Then molds can be made of any good or fun designs I come up with.

    Tormach 24R Router-sprut24r-jpg

    As you can see I have all kinds of dreams and Ideas and I listed only a few.
    Anyway for me, life is quickly becoming to short to get full use out of anything. I will be lucky to have mobility to even use these tools in a few years. And its easy to have a boat, travel trailer or atv that costs more and is used only a few days or weeks a year. I get far more use and about as much enjoyment out in my shop. What can I say, the long lines at boat ramps, rv parks and crazy atv people on the trails have left me wanting to spend more time at home



  8. #28
    Gold Member MichaelHenry's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tormach 24R Router

    Quote Originally Posted by mountaindew View Post

    As you can see I have all kinds of dreams and Ideas and I listed only a few.
    Anyway for me, life is quickly becoming to short to get full use out of anything. I will be lucky to have mobility to even use these tools in a few years. And its easy to have a boat, travel trailer or atv that costs more and is used only a few days or weeks a year. I get far more use and about as much enjoyment out in my shop. What can I say, the long lines at boat ramps, rv parks and crazy atv people on the trails have left me wanting to spend more time at home
    Well, you certainly have enough projects to get your money's worth out of it. Sorry to hear of your health issues. It's tough to deal with that stuff as we get older, especially when we finally have the time and money to enjoy ourselves.



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    Default Re: Tormach 24R Router

    Quote Originally Posted by jwatte View Post
    The ShopBot controller is reasonably capable, but they gratuitously invented their own control language, almost entirely out of ignorance. when they started the business. It's not G-code.
    The ShopBot understands G-code also.
    It just looks at the suffix on the file to figure out which one to use.
    For the most part, if you are using the included Vectrics software, only a few commands are used.
    The software replicates all the fancy G-code commands into simple x,y,z moves.
    I have had one for 12 years with no problems whatsoever.
    Dennis



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    Default Re: Tormach 24R Router

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelHenry View Post
    Well, you certainly have enough projects to get your money's worth out of it. Sorry to hear of your health issues. It's tough to deal with that stuff as we get older, especially when we finally have the time and money to enjoy ourselves.
    Thanks for the kind words! Life is more clear when you live one day at a time.
    We were discussing rust issues and I mentioned how I have little problem with this because of low humidity most of the time. This does cause a problem with the dust collection system that I didn't think about until the other day. I was getting some static electricity build up on or in vacuum hose during real dry days and long operation. Made me think of all the huge commercial units I used in past had a copper wire running down pipes and hoses to mitigate this. I would suspect this could also cause problems with the cnc control system if not addressed. So I will be adding some grounding inside hose.

    Quick question, Can anyone tell me the length of Tormach's electronic probe from probe tip to 10mm shaft that seats against TTS holder?
    Thinking about buying one to use on both mill and router and wanted a better idea of size.



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    Default Re: Tormach 24R Router

    I have had one for 12 years with no problems whatsoever.
    Yeah, I used a full-sheet ShopBot Pro for many years, and it was fine. I still own a copy of Cut2D.
    I was just sardonically amused that the wheel keeps getting reinvented over and over again, even in the age of the internet.



  12. #32
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    Default Re: Tormach 24R Router

    Quote Originally Posted by mountaindew View Post
    Quick question, Can anyone tell me the length of Tormach's electronic probe from probe tip to 10mm shaft that seats against TTS holder?
    Thinking about buying one to use on both mill and router and wanted a better idea of size.
    I have a rather old Tormach passive probe so things may have changed. The probe body is about 41mm from the nose of the probe to the top or about 63mm to the TTS reference ring. I am using a home brew stylus with 5mm ball on the end of a 2mm carbide rod. This extends about 44mm from the nose of the probe..the stylus could be considerably shorter if desired. Note that standard 4mm Renishaw probe tips fit the Tormach probe.



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    Default Re: Tormach 24R Router

    Quote Originally Posted by kstrauss View Post
    I have a rather old Tormach passive probe so things may have changed. The probe body is about 41mm from the nose of the probe to the top or about 63mm to the TTS reference ring. I am using a home brew stylus with 5mm ball on the end of a 2mm carbide rod. This extends about 44mm from the nose of the probe..the stylus could be considerably shorter if desired. Note that standard 4mm Renishaw probe tips fit the Tormach probe.
    Thank you for the information. Only question Tormach did not answer and I asked a couple times.
    Little long but should work and if height becomes a problem, I can always use a lock in place low profile / removable stop then locate material.
    Thanks again for info!



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    Default Re: Tormach 24R Router

    Quote Originally Posted by mountaindew View Post

    Quick question, Can anyone tell me the length of Tormach's electronic probe from probe tip to 10mm shaft that seats against TTS holder?
    Thinking about buying one to use on both mill and router and wanted a better idea of size.
    On your 24R can you not use a block of aluminum for setting your work piece. Would not be that hard to mill your own edge finder.




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    Default Re: Tormach 24R Router

    I have looked at this strategy before.. Tormach probe is designed to work with path pilot probe routines that are on both my router and mill. It can be used to find offsets based on a number of different methods like hole center, edge, part center.... I use a laser to set and align some non critical offsets. Super fast and real nice if your setting up real long material. I mostly want probe to locate offsets on low profile vises I use and fixture plate work where accurate offsets are required.


    I guess its just me but I can't watch all these videos. Very long on time and almost no useful content. A quick drawing and 50 words will get more of my attention. Not another music machinists video hehe



  16. #36
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    Default Re: Tormach 24R Router

    Quote Originally Posted by mountaindew View Post
    This only thing that still spooks me now and then.

    Attachment 435438


    After g37 tool height is set the machine returns to preset z height then it ramps all the way down to work area. On a mill with big z there is little problem with this. With a router that has max of 6" it gets down right attention getting as you watch it ramp down over material and fixtures going to the far end of the table. Its easy to fix with quick g code edit , just something I don't normally do.
    Jacob at Tormach / Sprutcam sent me an easy fix for this and its no longer a problem. Felt kind of stupid because I changed these settings when I first noticed the problem and could not get it to work. Silly me, I made the changes on the return and not the approach settings because I assumed they worked opposite the way they do. The results when I looked at the generated g-code and didn't see the change I needed because it was at end of the op not beginning. Anyway Thanks to Jacob and sprutcam for helping me sort this out and make this more error proof. Sometimes I have a phd mentality in the shop and this helps. btw phd = push here dummy



  17. #37
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    Default Re: Tormach 24R Router

    Follow up on this tool for anyone that reads this stuff. No problems with anything so far. Cooling fans might be getting a bit noisy. Could be in need of some cleaning. Keeping it lubricated is a little scary following the directions in the manual. Guessing I need a little experience with the manual tube lube system . I spend a lot time making fixtures and hardware to use the machine in the largest possible number of ways.
    I also come to the conclusion that in order to get the most out of how this machine can be used. I will need to add cam software to the tool box that is more router specific in format. What I use now works and will do anything I want. But after using it for a few months and doing some research aspire and some of these router specialized programs look like they would compliment and add to what this format machine can do. And how fun, easy and creative it makes the process is of course is the real reason. If you enjoy it, you do it more.

    Quick picture of a laser alignment guide I made a couple months ago for the 24r. helps align long material and set offsets. Simple stuff like this is fun to make and adds to machine function.

    Tormach 24R Router-laseredgefindermountv1fabricated-jpg

    btw! a little secret.
    This machine makes stuff woman really like. That is priceless!



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    Default Re: Tormach 24R Router

    I have been doing almost the opposite -- using router specific CAM on a PCNC. You may want to look at Vectric VCarve rather than Aspire. It isn't as capable but then it is considerably cheaper.



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    Default Re: Tormach 24R Router

    Quote Originally Posted by kstrauss View Post
    I have been doing almost the opposite -- using router specific CAM on a PCNC. You may want to look at Vectric VCarve rather than Aspire. It isn't as capable but then it is considerably cheaper.
    Thanks for heads up on vcarve. that is a good endorsement right there. I was thinking that same thing it will be nice to have cam options on both machines. Going to try them all and then decide what to buy. Can always upgrade for cost difference or so they advertise. I like all the users around here also, big time plus.
    anyway I guess Im hoping I can create more with less effort if I have options besides sprutcam. time will tell but your comment gives me way more confidence. .



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    Default Re: Tormach 24R Router

    VCarve combines CAD + CAM and makes it pretty easy to produce stuff with text, to combine v-bits and raising the z-axis to make sharper corners, to make moulding along a curve (think elliptical picture frames), combine a .STL with 4th axis, etc. Yes, you can purchase VCarve and later upgrade to Aspire for the difference in price. Everything is oriented towards visual work although I usually start by importing a .DXF and ignore most of the visual capabilities.



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