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    Exclamation Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

    I was almost about to place an order for the Premium package of PCNC440 (> $12,000) when I came across the following YouTube video review:





    Published just around 6 months ago, in the comments section there are plenty of others who have had similar experiences so it definitely is not a one off case.

    I read a bunch of comments (not all) but it appears that Tormach didn't even respond to this review!

    I simply cannot take a risk with any product from such a company.

    Anybody has any comments on this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 4world View Post
    I was almost about to place an order for the Premium package of PCNC440 (> $12,000) when I came across the following YouTube video review:





    Published just around 6 months ago, in the comments section there are plenty of others who have had similar experiences so it definitely is not a one off case.

    I read a bunch of comments (not all) but it appears that Tormach didn't even respond to this review!

    I simply cannot take a risk with any product from such a company.

    Anybody has any comments on this?
    That was a classic case of buying the wrong tool for the job and then being upset. He obviously has absolutely no idea what he was doing in buying that machine to make that park. I have a Haas TM to P and would not take a job requiring 6 inch tool engagement and a great surface finish. A 1234 or 5000 pound Mill isn’t going to do what he wanted it to do. I made a hell of a lot of money on my 400 pound X3 mill that I converted to CNC Because I knew what it could and couldn’t do. I also made a hell of a lot of money with my Tormach. I then sold it for almost what I bought it for making it the highest return on investment machine I have ever owned. If you were wanting to do high in production work that requires 1 inch tooling then no a 1000 or 2000 pound machine is not the right tool for the job. That is like showing up to a demolition job with a finishing hammer. Frankly the mini mill that he has now probably take some babysitting to get it to make that cut. I don’t even like doing profile work on my brother S 700s in Steele. I leave all the fixturing work for the Haas TM2P. But the brother runs 25,000 RPM 20+ hours a day with approximately 2 1/2 to 3 hours of human interaction. I also have a Haas OM2A that can only hold up to three eights inch tooling but the thing damn near prints money because I use the tool for what it’s made for.

    Tormach is a great starter machine. It’s a hell of a lot cheaper to crash the Tormach 15 times then $100,000 machine once. I have had to replace the spindle on both of my Haas machines. It’s not fun. If you’re in the garage and doing hobby stuff or wanting to learn Machining having a community of that type behind you puts you leaps and bounds above a lot of other cases. Sure you will outgrow it if you get into any type of production or if the parts require immaculate finishes that you can’t tumble afterwards. If you do get into that type of situation having the Tormach as a back up machine for second operation or zero operation is immensely usefulI. We make over 1000 parts A day and every single one of them comes off the Swiss looking like crap and then I tumble it for about 24 hours because if I slow down and take a finishing pass I can only make 500 parts today. A $10,000 Tumblr sitting in the corner running 24 hours a day saves me from having to buy another Swiss. Having a tormach sitting in the corner might save you from having to buy a second machine down the road. If you can tumble your parts after taking them off of an 1100 you’re saving a hell of a lot of money versus buying $100,000 machine to learn on and not see any ROI for 1 to 3 years.

    I wouldn’t let a single person who obviously didn’t know their elbow from an endmill have any bearing on your decision is for machine purchasing. Talk to people who’ve actually used both machines. Talk to people who started at the bottom and Clawed their way up from the garage and actually know how to machine parts. Yes there is a serious fanboy aspect to this brand and I don’t own one anymore so I don’t have a dog in the fight and as much as I like watching his videos to poke fun at him the dude is About as far from an expert on machine purchasing as you could possibly hope to ask for. In the last seven years I’ve bought 10 machines from 6 different manufacturers/brands and every single one of them earned it’s keep and had a place in my company’s progress. It all depends on your situation and where you are and what you’re trying to do. Biting off more than you can chew isn’t always the best way to start out. One of the only regrets that I made was going with the Haas TM instead of a Haas VF too. I got sucked in by the bigger travels and not realizing with good fixturing travels are not as important as rigidity and speed. You’re not gonna win any races with an 1100 but you can learn how to race get on the track and get the job done. If you’re good at it better machines will come along



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    Default Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

    Quote Originally Posted by WOTDesigns View Post
    That was a classic case of buying the wrong tool for the job and then being upset.
    ...
    I wouldn’t let a single person who obviously didn’t know their elbow from an endmill have any bearing on your decision is for machine purchasing.
    Numerous people have complained about the Tormach in the comments section on that review so it's not just him.


    Quote Originally Posted by WOTDesigns View Post
    ... $100,000 machine.
    Sorry, I should have clarified that my needs are not for production and the budget is around $15K (see my recent post requesting for guidance: https://www.cnczone.com/forums/bench...ml#post2265574)


    Quote Originally Posted by WOTDesigns View Post
    If you’re in the garage and doing hobby stuff or wanting to learn Machining having a community of that type behind you puts you leaps and bounds above a lot of other cases.
    Yes, I am grateful for the help I am getting from folks on this forum. Hope I can continue to learn in this area. You are obviously light years ahead of me in this.

    Thanks



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    Default Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

    It would be a poor business move for any company to respond to a youtube video review . It would be combat as soon as they do respond .

    Right off the top I have to question his motive . I'm sure he didn't do this out of the kindness in his heart for others . These being hobby mills , I'd also question the skill levels of the others who have commented
    Youtube reviews are great but they need to be taken with a grain of salt as well . That review was a ***** session and not a professional opinion . The guy in the video sounds to be mechanically incompetent , and I'd bet his cnc skill are probably the same .


    The tormachs aren't professional machines but in competent hands can do great things . I rolled 3 into my shop in august and within months they were well paid off with profit . I won't hesitate to buy more once I decide I need more . I'm not overly impressed with support and they have pissed me off , but it's not enough for me not to buy more of their machines .

    The key to buying a machine is deciding what your needs are . If you need to hold up tight tolerances all day in the ten thousands of an inch then tormach may not be your thing . Haas might not be your thing either depending on what your wanting to do . The tormachs as well as the other mills in the same price range need adjustment every so often , and it's just part of maintenance . I haven't adjusted mine yet and being conservative I've got at least 1200 hrs on each , though admittedly they are due for a couple slight tweaks .



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    Default Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

    So do you think any other manufacturers have 100% customer satisfaction?? No Way.
    I know that people with no experience in CAD/CAM or machining commit to produce a product, buy a Tormach, and complain when at the end of the first week they aren't making money running the machine. Or the machine can't build the 5 axis widget they thought it could.
    I have two Series II PCNC1100's, both are 10yrs old. There is no way I could have afforded any larger more expensive machine to build what I needed when I started. Tormach success stories are filled with guys starting in their garage and out growing the Tormach and buying full on VMC's. That is great business for Tormach for prospective customers to start there. Customer service from them is as good or better than any other company I have dealt with or friends have dealt with. I've seen new Haas and Makino's sit on the floor months waiting on parts for repair. One new Haas ended up going back and months of spindle changes and waiting for techs to double and triple check everything because it just would not cut and leave a decent surface finish. I am super excited about the new 1100MX coming out, it fills a niche and at a more than competitive price I am sure.

    RAD. Yes those are my initials. Idea, design, build, use. It never ends.
    PCNC1100 Series II, w/S3 upgrade, PDB, ATC & 4th's, PCNC1100 Series II, ATC, 4th


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    Default Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

    I just read your posting on the Benchtop forum but thought that I would respond here. You have many similarities to me: background in electrical and software engineering, some work in the medical field, both old (I'm 72) or almost old so I wanted something that works without having to spend months on a build, I make mostly small/tiny things of aluminum as prototypes or very short production runs, etc. I bought a PCNC770-III in 2010. My usage is sporadic rather than for production but I have had no problems that could be attributed to Tormach after almost nine years. With experience I can get accurate parts with excellent surface finish that requires no tumbling to make my customers happy. The control software (LinuxCNC based) is well documented and with source code if you want to change something (yes, I have made a few tweaks). Perhaps I was just lucky but I believe that I made the right choice.



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    Default Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

    Tormach, sloppy leadscrews don't belong on any cnc machine. If your Chinese slaves can't build a more accurate machine don't sell that CRAP.



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    Default Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

    Love my Tormach 1100S3...and there's a 770M inbound too.

    Will be curious to see how we like the newer M series and how it compares to what I've grown to know and love.

    WW



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    Default Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

    Tormach, sloppy leadscrews don't belong on any cnc machine. If your Chinese slaves can't build a more accurate machine don't sell that CRAP.
    Such comments are useless without details. Which Tormach model? Which axis? How much error? When purchased?



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    Default Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

    I watched that video when he first uploaded it. In all fairness, Jason is not a professional machinist and says so in the video several times. What I got from his video is his frustration with being told upfront that the 770 could do what he was asking, and then getting a hassle when he tried to return it because it couldn't.

    WOT hits it squarely on the head...he was sold the wrong machine for the job. However, I thought the review of his experience sounded fair, and I can understand why he was upset. I've always had great luck with my 770, and I'd never want to be without it, but I've heard plenty of people having problems too. My next machine purchase will more than likely be a TM2.

    Juan


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    Default Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

    Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality-img_8155-jpgI started out with a Rockwell drill press, Craftsman cross slide table and made, I thought, nice RC boat outdrives with it back in the early 70's. Most of the results are the operator, the nice machinery helps but it can be done without it in a lot of cases.
    One of the big problems today is a fellow wants professional results with a first grade education and no experience and minimal cash outlay??
    I learned most things the hard way and today I really appreciate what I have because of that..............

    I have a Tormach 1100 S3 since 2012, I learned the CNC trade with it, it was just the right price point, fit in my garage as well I didnt expect profession results but was plesantly surprised!

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality-img_8155-jpg  
    mike sr


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    Default Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

    I think the review was okay, and I think Tormach did the wrong thing trying to sell him the machine.
    That being said, I'm a happy 440 owner. I knew what I was getting, and it was the best option for me.
    I could neither fit nor afford anything bigger, and the even-smaller mills (Grizzlys and such) were too much of a project compared to a turn-key system with full cabinet and flood coolant, keeping all the chips on the inside.
    (Well, I say "all the chips" but my wife disagrees...)
    It's a market for a product that takes a lot of effort to build, and only has so many buyers; you're not going to get the perfect solution at a price you'll want. Pick which compromise you're willing to live with.
    For many people like me, I'm sure that that compromise is Tormach, and for many others, it's not.



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    Default Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

    As a non Tormach owner I think this review is honest. I also think he purchased the wrong product. You buy a machine that's less than half the price of a Mini Mill you should expect a product that is less than half that of a Mini Mill. Seems obvious to me. In business, and if he was in as big a time crunch as it seems he was, you don't buy cheap out. He was trying to save $250 a month over five years, a significant amount of a cash for an individual or a hobbiest, but for a business (and supposedly a successful one) that is chump change especially considering that's an obvious write off.

    Also, cool boat parts popspipes. I like the stinger on that chamber too.



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    Wow, beautiful rc boat parts Popspipes. Cool you could make those on a Tormach.

    The Tormach has allowed me to bootstrap my business and learn a ton without damaging a more expensive machine.

    I have no regrets and will keep the 1100 but it is a hobby machine and at times (rare) when I needed to depend on it there has been some problems. Mostly with the atc but switches, etc. These have been reduced with path pilot, though.

    I’m ready for a more reliable and faster machine so will most likely get a real vmc.

    You get what you pay for and I’m pretty amazed what the Tormach can do. It’s just slower and not quite as accurate.

    As someone mentioned earlier, I miss the original customer support Tormach had. It was great to talk with someone the same day. It really helped when one was running a business and needed to depend on their Tormach running.


    QUOTE=popspipes;2265812]Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality-img_8155-jpgI started out with a Rockwell drill press, Craftsman cross slide table and made, I thought, nice RC boat outdrives with it back in the early 70's. Most of the results are the operator, the nice machinery helps but it can be done without it in a lot of cases.
    One of the big problems today is a fellow wants professional results with a first grade education and no experience and minimal cash outlay??
    I learned most things the hard way and today I really appreciate what I have because of that..............

    I have a Tormach 1100 S3 since 2012, I learned the CNC trade with it, it was just the right price point, fit in my garage as well I didnt expect profession results but was plesantly surprised![/QUOTE]



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    Default Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

    Lots of hand work and "make do with what you have" in the old days.

    Thanks for the compliments

    mike sr


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    Default Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

    I must have gotten extremely lucky when I bought my PCNC 1100 in July 2011. I can still do work on it and hold tolerances of +/-.00075, and I’ll run 100 parts like that.

    I have noticed however that tech support has not really gone in the tank since Greg Jackson died. I used to call and get to talk to Andy or John right then. Now, I talk to Rebeccah and leave a message then hope someone calls me back before I get my problem figured out.

    I’m still running the Mach III OS because it works flawlessly with my GibbsCam programming software. I use a post processor for a Fanuc 6 on a Kitimura milling machine and I make a few more edits to make the program just the way I like it.

    I have always said “I can do anything on my Tormach you can do on one of those high dollar industrial machines, it just takes me a little longer. And ya know what else? My Tormach didn’t cost $100,000.00.

    Last edited by Steve Seebold; 02-23-2019 at 01:32 PM.


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    I'm new here and this is my first post. I just sent Tormach an ACH for ~$30,500 yesterday for an 1100M, obviously loaded up. I watched this review quite a while back and did find it concerning. His complaint seemed legit with the issues that he reported, but.... You have to consider the whole picture. I think he managed to keep it civil and maybe from his perception, he thinks he is doing the community some justice. who knows, just attempting to be objective. As pointed out, something is up when you go from a 440 to a mini2. I've made a very good living in this trade punching a clock for another man. Dispite many negative comments and so called reviews, this being one of the better stated ones, I find myself buying a Tormach. Does it make me a fan? idk yet. something I have noticed about the vast majority of the neg reviews is that they are typically non traditionally trained, low experienced people. Many of the complaints that I've read could be associated with poor set-up and validation of the machine tool itself. The same people could bring a Mori, Hass or what ever in, set it up on their own and try to run it. Their results will be less than satisfactory. I've seen pics of people setting Lathes and Mills with a carpenters level. That isn't gonna cut it. A machinery level was invented for a reason. performance starts with a foundation. That foundation needs to start with intelligence,experience, a will to learn and own your short comings. This guy had Hass drop off a Haas machine and set it up for him....vs a Tormach that you do yourself. How many machines you recon he has set in his day?



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    Default Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

    It seems clear that most of you never watched the video. From minute one it was clear that he had sloppy leadscrews.
    So some of you think Tormach has the right to sell a machine like that.
    I think some you have elevators that don't go all the way to the top.



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    Default Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

    I am perfectly happy with my 1100, it has made many parts over the 7 years I have owned it, It does have a problem occasionally but nothing I havent been able to fix.

    It fits in my garage, it taught me the trade, cost was affordable, it still makes nice parts some of which I sell, it just does what I need it to do.

    mike sr


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    Default Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

    Quote Originally Posted by liefer View Post
    It seems clear that most of you never watched the video. From minute one it was clear that he had sloppy leadscrews.
    So some of you think Tormach has the right to sell a machine like that.
    I think some you have elevators that don't go all the way to the top.
    Well I saw the video when it was first released and I’ve just watched it again for your benefit. In contrast to many people criticizing the Tormach I can honestly say that I have also seen a Tormach and I’ve been using mine for the past 7 years?
    First of all, from minute one he doesn’t even mention he had a problem at all. Then in my opinion it’s very definitely not clear that the leadscrews are at fault. As he mentioned himself it could, and is far more likely to have been, either the angular contact bearings or gibs. He tried to adjust both but wasn’t able to correct the problem. We will now never know what the problem actually was because he gave up and returned the machine. Judging by the way he performed the test with the indicator mounted on his vise I get the impression he didn’t actually understand what he was measuring. I even suspect his chatter and tolerance issues were not even due to the table at all. I would first have suspected a loose Z axis gib. We saw him show the X axis drive cover removed but did he also check the Z axis? We will probably never know.
    I’ll refrain from commenting on all other aspects of his video with one exception: He sounds pretty upset that Tormach didn’t inform him of the new machines with servos. However he appears to have been troubled by a two-week wait but the servos haven’t even been released yet, 6 months later. Servos wouldn’t therefore have been an option for him anyway! Does a machine like a Tormach 770 even need servos? The vast majority of users today aren’t getting the most out of their steppers so I would say no. On the other hand if prospective guys like this think they need them and are prepared to pay the premium
    Step



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