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  1. #41
    Member kstrauss's Avatar
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    Default Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

    Your objective sounds like a great goal and I'd love to have access to such technology. I am not aware of anything that currently comes close to achieving what you want other than some flavours of 3d printers; there is considerably more art than science to getting good results from most milling jobs. We're slowly getting to 3d printer technology that can produce metal parts but there are none that I have seen your price range.



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    Default Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

    The Datron Neo is as close as anything out there to what you're asking for--they even call it "the smartphone approach to milling" on their website. Very thoughtful design from the control software through the workholding:



    Just don't look at the price

    I own a software company and the basic challenges I see are that the hobby/small-scale CNC market is too small and fragmented to support a lot of in-depth R&D. PathPilot only exists because of LinuxCNC, and LinuxCNC is based on original work funded by NIST, which was released to the public domain and also formed the core of Mach. Tormach today is one of the largest players in the space and in the grand scheme of things they are tiny. While there are plenty of developers who could enhance the LinuxCNC UI, anybody who knows how to do that can easily use the UI as it exists, so few hobbyists are going to work on it for fun. And the market is too small to make much of a business out of it either.

    On a different track, look at Protolabs, who you can send a STEP file to and get a machined part the next day, for not an enormous amount of money. They have built a huge amount of proprietary technology that allows them to mostly automate the whole process from quoting to fixturing and toolpath generation. Very impressive, and a massive investment--look at the job openings on their website to get an idea.



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    Default Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

    Quote Originally Posted by 4world View Post
    3. And then I saw this: Mini CNC 5-series personal mill which seems much nicer than the Tormach for about the same price or say another $3-4K more. (Not everything made in China is bad just like not everything made in US is good.)
    I suggest you go to the Syil section and start reading. Maybe jump back a few pages (which is a few years) to when there were a few unhappy customers. It was an active forum about a decade ago, and then slowly disappeared into nothingness. Huge QC issues, absolutely no in-country or even english-speaking support.

    There have been a couple recent start-ups in the US now selling the new generation of Syil machines, but they don't have a huge customer base, so who knows if they fixed their problems. Try joining the Syil facebook page, and see what people say there.

    Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality-syil-png

    Tim
    Tormach 1100-3 mill, Grizzly G0709 lathe, PM935 mill, SolidWorks, HSMWorks.


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    Default Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

    Quote Originally Posted by AUSTINMACHINING View Post
    Short answer is "No". That's what you can do with a 3d printer though.
    ++1

    3D printer won't destroy a $50 endmill and punch a hole through your vise or table because you selected the wrong offset or screwed up zeroing you axis. Won't sling your part across the room at 60 mph because your workholding method sucks. A 3D printer won't overheat and slag your tool because you just randomly selected feeds and speeds without bothering to learn the science behind it... or at least use a program like HSM Advisor or G-Wizard to get the right answer.

    I think some people expect a cnc mill is just as easy to use as a 3D printer, and quickly become disillusioned and angry when they met reality. There is a reason why the tradition tech school - apprenticeship - journeyman approach lasts for years.

    It would be impossible to write a "slicer" (aka CAM) and mill controller to recognize and take into account all the variables: workholding, correct tools, automatically find tool offsets and work offsets, select the right tool paths, etc etc etc. And if such a beast existed, it would cost millions of dollars. And you probably still could cause tens of thousands of dollars in a heartbeat if you didn't know what you are doing.

    Tim
    Tormach 1100-3 mill, Grizzly G0709 lathe, PM935 mill, SolidWorks, HSMWorks.


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    Default Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

    Tormach today is one of the largest players in the space and in the grand scheme of things they are tiny.
    This.

    Also: In addition to Protolabs, there's Xometry, and your local job shop down the street. Those are real options.



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    Default Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

    Quote Originally Posted by 4world View Post
    It's like I'm a computer engineer and love IBM-compatible PCs that I can program to do wonderful things but my wife can't handle anything but a Apple Mac as it does most things automatically...... Is there a CNC mill for non-machinists like me to which I could just send 3D designs and it could make the part for me.....

    Back when I still had hair and six-packs were just beginning to replace tape drives, I did systems programming in BAL (ASMFCLG) on IBM 360 and 370 main frames. Not particularly relevant to machining. You can sketch out a simple 2.5 d part on a napkin and manually program it. But only for the most simple, i.e., no complex curves or contours, and only if you can actually manually program. For the most simple parts, Tormach's PathPilot conversational option may suffice. The thing is that it appears you don't know manual programming for CNC. That leaves you behind the curve for turning rough sketches into precision parts whether you have an old, well used or Tormach or a shinny new $200k machine. I sincerely believe that if you will take the time to learn CNC programming, then a used Tormach will suit your needs. As Confucius once remarked, "You pays your money and you takes your choice."



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    Default Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

    Is there a CNC mill for non-machinists like me to which I could just send 3D designs and it could make the part for me
    Yes, there is.
    But it lives at a custom job house where it has experienced handlers and programmers. It does not, and can NOT, live in your house.

    If you want to play hobby, then a long learning path is ahead of you although being a computer engineer will help.
    If you need is commercial, search the web for companies like Proto Labs to get you going.

    Cheers
    Roger
    PS: no links at all to ProtoLab - they just keep emailing me.



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    Default Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

    Quote Originally Posted by 4World
    Is there a CNC mill for non-machinists like me to which I could just send 3D designs and it could make the part for me.
    NO!

    Thinking you can buy a CNC machine, and immediately start making high-quality parts with no learning curve or training is every bit as ridiculous as buying your first computer, and thinking you could immediately sit down and write your own "killer app" with no training or experience in programming. CNC machines are COMPLEX. CAD/CAM software is COMPLEX. Tooling is COMPLEX. Perhaps the single most complex thing to learn is how to deal with tool selection, feeds and speeds. Even with the best software out there, if you don't have the experience to be able to "read" and then adjust the cut, you cannot get a good result. There is a HUGE, long, slow learning curve to almost every step of the process from concept to finished part. Going from producing slow, expensive one-offs to volume production is another massive learning curves. I've been running with CNC machines for about 18 years, and I STILL learn new things on virtually every project.

    Regards,
    Ray L.



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    Default Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

    Quote Originally Posted by AUSTINMACHINING View Post
    Short answer is "No". That's what you can do with a 3d printer though. Just design and print. Machining is a whole different world. Its not just about using software to generate tool paths. There are a plethora of other variables come in to play. Work holding designs of complex parts can be harder to make than the part itself. Tool selection, material type, feeds and speeds, tool access to parts are just a few things. I've been machining for 8 years and there are still a ton of things to learn. Especially with unique geometry and difficult to machine materials.
    ummmm... 3D printer is MUCH more pain in the ass than CNC. Its not that hard, just might be a bit intimidating at first. a 3D printer is constantly a PITA, even when you know them inside and out lol.



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    Default Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

    I’ve been running NC and CNC machines since 1965, and I still learn something no matter how insignificant every day.

    I’ve had my PCNC 1100 since July, 2011 and I have even made some money on it.

    I’m 74 years old now and I run my CNC mostly for something to do in my retirement.

    You can buy GOOD PARTS or you can buy CHEAP PARTS, but you can't buy GOOD CHEAP PARTS.


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    Default Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

    Quote Originally Posted by Spinnetti View Post
    ummmm... 3D printer is MUCH more pain in the ass than CNC. Its not that hard, just might be a bit intimidating at first. a 3D printer is constantly a PITA, even when you know them inside and out lol.
    Boy, it would be hard to me to disagree more. I got my first 3D printer about 6 weeks ago - given to me by a friend who bought a larger machine. After putting it back together, it took no time at all to download and install all the software, and print my first parts. The learning curve was unbelievably quick, as the software (Cura) is so completely automated. I can load a model, generate the G-code and start the printer printing with something like a dozen mouse clicks! Other than initial problems with the base layer not sticking to the bed, every print I've done has come out nearly perfect. And this is a VERY inexpensive printer (Tevo Tarantula - $179 for the kit), with a few pretty simple upgrades.

    Compare that to learning curve required to generate the simplest g-code for a mill using Solidworks of Fusion and Mach3 or PP. Compare the potential range of problems to just the learning curve on feeds and speeds for cutting metal (something I spent YEARS mastering), much less the countless other areas where you can get into trouble. There is no comparison.

    Regards,
    Ray L.



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    Default Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

    Quote Originally Posted by keen View Post
    ...
    Let us know what you choose! Cliff
    This thread has been so informative and helpful due to everyone's inputs that it has changed my thinking completely. The email after yours is a person with machining experiences who vouches for 3D printer quality. So here's what my priorities look like today:

    1. Try a 3D printing service online that produces parts not too much superior than what a home printer costing say $1000-1500 would. This would validate the quality 3D printers can produce (I hope). If parts look good for my "proof-of-concept" testing, then I'd buy a printer myself!

    2. If this doesn't fly, then get the parts machined .... from individuals who own mills. Craigslist? This forum somewhere?!

    3. Maybe a year down, I can restart my search to own a machine if it makes sense at that time!


    Such help as this forum makes me wonder:
    From my college days when we built 8085 systems and painfully connected to bulletin boards to just download some driver, to today's omnipresent, omniscient powerhouse of collective knowledge -- the Internet -- that solves nearly every problem! I would guess that we all are probably the luckiest generation ever to have lived or that will live on this planet to have seen warp-speed growth in the last 40 years and the coming perhaps 20 more!

    Thank you to all.



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    Member nitewatchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

    Quote Originally Posted by SCzEngrgGroup View Post
    Boy, it would be hard to me to disagree more. I got my first 3D printer about 6 weeks ago - given to me by a friend who bought a larger machine. After putting it back together, it took no time at all to download and install all the software, and print my first parts. The learning curve was unbelievably quick, as the software (Cura) is so completely automated.
    Ray,

    If you like the results from Cura, you need to check out Simply3D. It is not free but it is powerful. Things like being able to manipulate support and being able to modify printing parameter through different zone or layer ranges.

    Gary



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    Default Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

    Every generation is the luckiest generation ever, and the fact that we all now have the internet accelerates the development of all the helpful systems that the next generation will have.
    Despite what politics may make you think, actual people working on making the actual world a better place is a powerful thing :-)

    Regarding 3D printing, the good 3D services actually use a "better" process/material than a $1000 home printer. Specifically, something like Shapeways White Strong Flexible material is sintered powdered nylon, which is a more precise process in a stronger material than your typical PLA/ABS fused deposition modeling home printer. (There are other materials you can make work with FDM, such as nylon or polycarbonate, but the FDM "smear the plastic" technique inherently is less precise.)

    Also, some 3D printers print in metal. There are a few options, for example: Print in wax, and then make a mold and cast into that mold, or print in actual steel, and burn in an oven to infuse with bronze to bind it together. These are more expensive, but can make parts with higher strength than you get from plastics.

    With a home printer, though, you can probably print a plug, and then use green sand casting to cast your part in aluminum or iron. It all depends on how precise it needs to be, and how much effort you put into it.



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    Default Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

    Just adding reasons for my decision on the previous post.

    Several of you have rightly indicated that CNC machining has a learning curve (tool speeds/selection, tool breakage, spoiling parts, etc.) and significant costs in additional purchases (holding, alignment, tooling, measuring, etc.) In this time, I have also managed to watch around 20 YouTube videos, which indicate similar complexities.

    Besides, machining isn't my main profession so I better stay focused on my electrical design work, else I will find myself pulling out my hair 6 months later with nothing accomplished....

    I can't thank you guys enough as your sincere inputs have helped me save money and time (and whatever hair remain ), and gain good knowledge to consider this purchase perhaps a year or two later.



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    Default Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

    4world;

    Your approach is sound: Use a service, understand what works for your needs, understand what specifications (tolerance, material specs., etc.) others need from you, then move to the next step, which might possibly include purchasing a machine.

    I do have one question for you though. In post #27 in this thread, you talk about aluminum and brass machining... over 99% of 3D printers print only plastic. While this is more than adequate in most instances for proof-of-concept/ fit/ visualization, it will not work to replace parts that need to be made of brass or aluminum for strength/ heat/ wear tolerance or other specs. Metal 3D print services are fairly pricey and good ole machining services are less expensive than 3d metal printers by far. BY FAR!

    OK, I had a question in there somewhere... Oh, in Post #53, your approach is sound for plastic parts given the above provisos. Not so much for brass or aluminum unless you want only plastic prototypes. So, can you deal with only prototypes or plastic parts in the near future?

    There is no substitute for knowledge: If you are interested in speeding up your learning curve, I would definitely consider buying a 3D printer THAT YOU HAVE TO BUILD. These are tons cheaper than a mill, and this will teach you more than you knew you needed to know about:

    * alignment
    * precision
    * tolerances
    * stepper motors
    - torque vs. speed
    - speed & acceleration vs. power
    - vs. slipping
    * accuracy vs. machining (printing time)
    * gcode
    * fixturing/ setup/ etc.
    * software needs you will be looking for in a mill
    and such.

    For one that fits your part envelop, if you are in the US, consider something along the lines of a Folger FT6 (no, I am not associated with them but did buy an FT5 a few years ago). There are others that are equally capable. Read the forum a bit...

    Good luck.
    -STrack



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    Default Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

    Quote Originally Posted by ShortTrack View Post

    So, can you deal with only prototypes or plastic parts in the near future?
    That's a compromise I will make to achieve the goal of saving time, hassle, and cost. E.g., I will drill holes in an aluminum plate that match the mounting holes on a 24VDC motor-gearbox-encoder combo, and then mount this plate on to the ABS plastic frame out of the 3D printer. Similarly, I'll use aluminum/steel/brass rods and extrusions (available from Amazon) where plastic parts won't be strong enough.

    I'll use the Proxxon XY Table and a precision drill press that I have to drill reasonably precise positioned holes in the aluminum plate, rods/extrusions, etc.

    In addition, once the proof-of-concept stage is achieved, even if the entire plastic model gets destroyed during testing, I'll send the final improved 3D design to a machine shop to get aluminum/brass parts as necessary. At that point, I figure I'll need a mechanical/industrial engineer any ways to reconfigure my amateurish mechanical design.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShortTrack View Post

    3D printer... consider something along the lines of a Folger FT6 Read the forum a bit...
    Oh, thank you so much for suggesting a 3D printer!! I'll search the forum for 3D printers and read up.

    If anyone else has a suggestion, it would be most welcome. Upper budget: ~ $1500 or so (max say 2K for something that can get me easier usage, and better parts).

    I'm in the Los Angeles area.



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    Default Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

    Quote Originally Posted by ShortTrack View Post
    If you are interested in speeding up your learning curve, I would definitely consider buying a 3D printer THAT YOU HAVE TO BUILD.
    Oh, this hadn't sunk in before! Well, in engineering theory (even some mechanical topics) and building stuff with my hands, I'm pretty good (maybe not a pro like you guys) having done it for decades. Whatever theory I lack, can often be Googled.

    Time is of the essence and I wouldn't like to build the 3D printer and end up with something suboptimal. I'd rather get a decent printer that works out of the box, and then spend time churning out parts and perfecting my own R&D designs and maybe even my Solidworks skills.

    Back in 1999, I had worked closely with an IDEO senior industrial engineer to bring my invention to market (the mechanical parts involved Solidworks, SLA protos, ABS machined and fully contoured parts that looked like the final ones that would come out of future injection molds, several steel stampings, etc. that all had to fit together precisely before getting hard tooling made).

    It was sweat/blood work and hard learning (I got injection molds made in California and even started production here only to find out that I had to move everything to China to stay competitive). Ever since, I have learned a bit more too.

    And, it's the time element too, due to which I've abandoned the mill idea for now.



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    Community Moderator Jim Dawson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

    Quote Originally Posted by 4world View Post

    2. If this doesn't fly, then get the parts machined .... from individuals who own mills. Craigslist? This forum somewhere?!
    You can submit a RFQ here. https://www.cnczone.com/forums/usa-rfq-s/

    Your local Craigslist might be a good option also. I do quite a bit of work for advertisers on Craigslist.

    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA


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    Default Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

    Quote Originally Posted by 4world View Post
    I was almost about to place an order for the Premium package of PCNC440 (> $12,000) when I came across the following YouTube video review:





    Published just around 6 months ago, in the comments section there are plenty of others who have had similar experiences so it definitely is not a one off case.

    I read a bunch of comments (not all) but it appears that Tormach didn't even respond to this review!

    I simply cannot take a risk with any product from such a company.

    Anybody has any comments on this?
    Well, you found out that criticising Tormach here will be sort of like standing up and yelling FRAUD at a Scientology meeting. The original founder of Tormach had a vision for a reasonably priced machine for home use with decent quality. He was also clever enough to use social media and sponsored owners to promote an image of a friendly user community. However, like all businesses that grow beyond the scope of a visionary founder, Tormach is now a company with a large fixed overhead requiring a minimum amount of sales every day to pay the bills, and that income comes from employees whose vision is to retain their jobs and earn commissions. I watched the video a few times myself, and it was clear that the guy was not running down the machine, but rather complaining that they promised a machine that would do his work, and when it failed to perform, they then gave him a rather hard time and charged him some pretty large fees for the return of the unit.



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Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

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