Yes
Some what
not at all
Made no sense
Not a Tormach or a HAAS, but.a similar comparison.
I just made the jump last week from my Novakon Torus servo to a brother S500X1. It really boils down to the types of parts your making and how much you value your time. I've been producing parts for the last 5 years on the Novakon, and it served it's purpose. But It takes so long on larger parts, I was leaving lots of money on the table "so to speak". I can certainly say there is no remote comparison to the two type of machines. The control is so much more streamlined to use. It has safeguards built in to prevent various mistakes, and all functions are instantaneous (good at 2000IPM rapids.). I can stop mid program just by opening the door, take a peek and hit cycle start. Or start at some random point and it safely retracts,collects it's marbles, loads the respective tool and continues on. When I was removing lots of Metal,chip control,flood coolant capacity etc. was a struggle to keep up with. Now I don't have to manage anything other than dumping chips out of the bin. When the operation is complete, the machine is damn near spotless inside. I used to spend a lot of time scooping chips out of the enclosure, digging out of key ways,vise etc. Things are just sooo much easier. The machine is also smaller in footprint because it's designed so efficiently. Also not having to deal with way oil is really nice. It will run of a 30 amp breaker with a phase converter and uses very little air for a VMC. I was in a major bind to get some parts out when the VMC hit the floor on Tuesday. The tech installed on Tues. gave training on Wed., I spent a day learning the control on Thurs. and didn't really expect to make my Fri. ship deadline. I spent some time fumbling my way around the control and started machining 1:30 on Friday. By 4:30 I was headed to Fed-Ex with the parts boxed up. I was blown away at the speed of everything. There were four parts of similar, but different geometry from 10 x 8 x 1" plate. Being my first chips, I was running pretty conservative. The load meter never went over 2 bars and I was only rigid tapping at 1500 RPM (instead of 6000), and my cycle time on the part went from an hour to 17 minutes. The chip bin in the video was from the four parts that were punched out in short order. I still have a lot to learn on the control, post processing different modes (High accuracy 3d surfacing etc). But I'm seriously blown away at the productivity/ease of use.
Haas has a nice online quote builder for rack pricing, but Brother does not. In general, I really dislike the old-school "you have to call us and we have to come by and take you out to lunch before we can even talk ballpark pricing" bull****. The internet is eating those guys, and they will be dead 30 years from now in favor of open rack pricing (but, of course, the discount game will still be played.)
As far as I've managed to figure out on the internets, it's about $80k, so not that much more than a Haas (depending on the model, of course, and I don't know what kinds of equipment and fees were included in that.)
When I first started looking, I felt the same way with the pricing thing. Not sure why most the industry hasn't caught up with online pricing etc. I'll say my experience with Yamazen has been stellar. I knew I wanted a Brother, so started looking for a used machine, but being in Texas, finding a used one is like spotting a Unicorn. I called Yamazen in Dallas to inquire about used/demo's, which they didn't have. The sales guy said they have some end of year pricing. Super friendly , very professional said he would shoot me a quote. 1 hour later I got the quote and Spec sheet. Zero pressure and no phone calls etc. Installation and training is free, and they are coming back in 6 weeks just to follow up on any questions, I sent them a question via email a week after install about a post processor question (InvetorHSM). I got a phone call 2 minutes later with an answer. Brother pricing is simple as the base units has a lot of options already included. Pendant, LED lighting, rigid tapping,6 levels of accuracy modes etc. They also break down machining capability in writing write on the brochure (ex. Rigid tap M16,drill 25mm in Carbon steel etc.) So you know exactly what your getting. I priced a similar Super minimill online with a similar options that came out at 61K. The super had more tools (20 instead of 14), Cat40 instead of BT30 and more memory. Here's a a test cut in some Stainless using HSM 7500 RPM at 300IPM.
I think Tormach has found themselves in a tough situation recently. The original founder saw a niche market for a hobby mill that was better than the Harbor Freight-Grizzly offerings, but still at a reasonable price point. Then they began to overmarket themselves through the use of paid sponsors on You Tube and ended up competing with professional machines with not so professional results. Now, the new tariffs are pushing their pricing into the same area as professional machines- the old tariffs were 4.1% and the new 25% tariff is on top of that, so that is 29.1% of the pricing going to pay down our national debt and probably 50% going to the Chinese manufacturer, while the money spent on a Haas is circulated 100% inside the USA and in the private sector.
I don't think they compete with the factory mills. A basic Haas, landed on the shop floor, is > $50k, and also gulps air and needs phase converter power from a high-amp 220V circuit. An 1100 is < $25k, and the 440 is $15k, and they plug into the wall outlet you already have. As a hobbyist, there's no way I can turn over enough seat cushions and find loose change to afford the Haas (or Brother, or Mazak, or whatever,) but careful budgeting did allow me to put a Tormach in the garage, and it does what I need it to do.
Some professionals they may be able to go after might be people who run their own little service shop -- yes, it's a business, and yes, it makes money from the machining work they do -- but it's not a global-market price-competitive precision job shop environment. The competition there is really "do it on the manual mill," not a work-cell based automated machining factory floor.
That gave me a chuckle!pay down our national debt
We've never paid down the national debt, in dollars. Coming out of World War II, we had a really big debt. The dollar amount owed by the US government has grown every year since then on average (except for some slight variation.)
The reason we haven't yet collapsed, is that the GDP has grown faster than the debt, so the percentage-of-GDP debt isn't nearly as big as it was coming out of WWII. In other words, we keep re-financing the debt forward, rather than paying it off, and economic growth ends up paying for it. (Pretty sweet deal :-)
Anyway, enough numbers; back to G code !
A HAAS is easily twice the machine... at twice the price all-in.
For a machine-shop business if you can fog a mirror, HAAS will finance a machine and if your business wads up, HAAS will come take your machine away again.
Tormach doesn't have that (same reason IMO the Chinese discount-VMCs don't do so well), but you can bit-and-piece your machine together over time which appeals to hobbyists and shops that aren't trying to make their margin on each part coming off the machine.
I'm just guessing, but perhaps also short runs of small stuff the big boys don't want to mess with.
A decent used Haas Super Mini mill goes for like $30k. That's 15hp, 1100ipm rapids. Not much of a comparison assuming the Haas doesn't kill you on maintenance to get a used machine operational.
I am in the process of picking up a Syil X7 Combo machine with about 4 hours of time on it. Sort of in the middle. Not as fast or as powerful as the Haas mini mill but the work envelope should cover me for quite some time. By the time I get it to the house, the electrical installed and up and running I should be out about $22k shipped, completely tooled up and running. 3hp 10k servo spindle, all linear rail, 12 tool changer and an LNC controller.
The lack of linear rails on the Tormach 1100MX was the reason I went Syil after deciding against the Mini Mill. The foot print of the mini mill was just outside of what I could make work. I think I have made the right choice for me so I'll report back after I have had the machine for a bit. The first project for it will be to convert my little BF20 to rails and refurb it to pass along to someone else that wants to start on something small and cheap to get their feet wet. While it may be possible to sell it later my plan would be to donate it to a young high school S.T.E.M student to enjoy learning on as I did with it.
Syil's look attractive on paper. It will be interesting to hear your experience.
Eventually I will bump up from my G0704 to something better, and I used to think that it would be a Tormach. I'm not so sure anymore. And with a two car garage serving as a my workshop, taking up the majority of one of my bays just for a mini-mill alone seems silly, especially in that my buddy has a VF-2 that's only 5 miles from my home.
As a former Haas owner, I can tell you, you would have had a “WAY” better machine had you gone with the Haas.
I had a Haas TM1 in my shop and if I had known then what I know now, I would have taken some of the money I got when I sold my FADAL, paid off my Haas and brought it home.
Don’t get me wrong, I love my PCNC 1100 Series II, but the Haas was a way better machine.
In my opinion, you made a huge mistake not buying the Haas.
You can buy GOOD PARTS or you can buy CHEAP PARTS, but you can't buy GOOD CHEAP PARTS.
Do you have a Syil?
The TM-2P was actually top of my list for quite a while I just don't have the room currently and am unwilling to kick at least one fairly pricey vehicle out into the driveway to accommodate the foot print. I have no delusions that the Syil isn't less machine than the Haas. I did look really hard at some lightly used TM machines as well as Mini Mills. If I were looking to spool up a business they would have likely been what was purchased. This is truly a hobby for me and something to keep my hands and brain busy with post work life and not a career.
As a retired motorcycle racer that concepts of sunk costs and diminishing returns is not lost on me.
Am I correct in that Haas charges like $1500 just to turn on rigid tapping in the control? I remember hearing that, but I'm not sure if it's true.
My research indicates Haas plays the option game pretty well. Lots of things are optional at significant added expense. It's like dealing with the Porsche of the machining world.
Oh..you bought a car from us that's great. Oh you want the wheels to roll well that'll be an option and will cost an additional $1000 dollars. Oh you want them to roll both directions forward and backwards? Well the wheel rolling option only gets you the ability to roll forward if you'd like to roll backwards that's another $500.
It was pretty apparent that the way to get into one was on the used market with a machine someone had already eaten all the high dollar option cost on.
Last edited by Kenny Duval; 11-14-2019 at 02:11 PM.
I took a browse on the Haas website, they have an impressive online sales portal for a company that presumably does 99% of it's sales to company's, not consumers.
They definitely have a lot of add on stuff, and rigid tapping is on there. Whether they turn it on via the control or whether there is additional hardware needed, I do not know.
It's surprising that rigid tapping isn't standard though, because as we all know, even hobby grade machines can do it with the right hardware and software. Of course the Haas would decimate any hobby grade machine and you have to pay to play. I can understand it because of that.
I also checked out Syils, I built out sort of a dream machine, it came to $36k. Haha.