HASS vs. Tormach 1100MX - Page 4


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Thread: HASS vs. Tormach 1100MX

  1. #61
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    Default Re: HASS vs. Tormach 1100MX

    Tm-1P seems to be the best value of the bunch. I had an 1100 and other than some initial sloppy workmanship I didn't have any major complaints beyond the enclosure. Had to sell it when I moved, and now contemplating if I should get another. or something like a TM-1P which I doubt I'd ever outgrow



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    Default

    I think you are right. If I’m not mistaken the TM-1p can be run off residential 220volt power making it a good option for folks working out of their garages.
    Wish the 4th axis was not so expensive to set up.



    QUOTE=Spinnetti;2349610]Tm-1P seems to be the best value of the bunch. I had an 1100 and other than some initial sloppy workmanship I didn't have any major complaints beyond the enclosure. Had to sell it when I moved, and now contemplating if I should get another. or something like a TM-1P which I doubt I'd ever outgrow[/QUOTE]



  3. #63
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    Default Re: HASS vs. Tormach 1100MX

    Quote Originally Posted by n1tr0 View Post
    I've had machines without a PDB or ATC, but there's no way I'd go back, my time is worth more than those savings.
    Sure. I guess my point is that IMHO, the Tormach represents a much better value at $13k than the $20K+ you get to when you add the full setup. If you're like me, doing one-off parts and very small production, a PDB+ATC is more of a nice-to-have, as you're often standing at the machine anyway. Then there's the issues with the TTS PDB system, which is functional but fussy. I have maybe a couple hundred tool changes on mine so far with the ATC and I'm not yet comfortable enough to really leave it alone. The BT-30 system in principle should fix this, but the MX is going to be over 20k to start.

    I just think as you get into that 20K+ range, the used options start to look better. IME, you start seeing decent deals on VMCs around 15k for machines that aren't ancient or beat to $#@! and back. While everybody knows somebody who got a perfectly-good machine for $5k, those aren't everyday finds unless you know lots of shops. If you want to set aside say 10k for rigging, some $ for service, and other things that cost more for an industrial VMC, then you're starting to look at the same money an 1100MX costs.

    Now, there are some good reasons you might still want the Tormach. I have 250#/sqft floors in my shop, so even a MiniMill is out of the question for me. I like the PathPilot control over a 20+ year-old Haas or Fanuc. But I suspect a big part of their business plan is based on buyers like larger companies or schools whose purchasing departments don't understand used equipment.

    Quote Originally Posted by n1tr0 View Post
    US-based support from an established company definitely carries some value, but it is a balancing act. A company has to value your business and time in return too.
    I think the big criteria for me here is what happens if/when the manufacturer goes out of business. A small company with one principal and a couple dozen employees is never more than one car crash, lawsuit, or heart attack away from closing up. To the extent that these are simple machines built of commodity parts, they won't necessarily turn into pumpkins if that happens. But even here, volume matters: if Tormach went Ch. 7 tomorrow, the installed base would be a big help in keeping an 1100 running. Fadal built 50,000 VMCs out of mostly off-the-shelf parts before closing up almost 20 years ago, and as a result, replacement parts today are very available and cheap by VMC standards, and tons of guys know how to work on them. Probably one of the best garage VMCs if you can't afford new.



  4. #64
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    Default Re: HASS vs. Tormach 1100MX

    After running this debate for a while I went back to Haas and priced out a mini mill as well as a TM1. It’s at least double to triple the cost of a similar Tormach. So many of the comments of “you’re looking at spending $20k on a Tormach? Might as well spend a few more and get a HAAS” are simply wrong, at least new. When you compare base to base, you’re looking at $10k for a base 1100M and $31k for a base Haas. Want to look at the 1100MX, with a rotary table, and you’re looking at $25k. For a Similar optioned Haas? $65-$80k depending on software choices.

    It seems dishonest to me to compare a loaded 4 axis Tormach to a base TM-1 with not add one at all. What the Haas can do it will do better but you aren’t close to getting a similar 4 axis machine with rigid tapping and all the software bells/whistles at a comparable price. And if you aren’t going that route on a Tormach you probably aren’t looking at a $25k machine.

    Certainly used changes things, but I see some loaded Tormachs for sale for $5-$10k, which again is a price nowhere really close to a used Haas.

    For $10-$15k, you’re either getting a new light duty machine or you’re getting a 15-30 year old heavy duty machine. There are benefits to both routes and drawbacks to both. I’m not trying to say it’s better to buy a new, lighter duty option. For the price to features, you need to go quite old to get the same bells and whistles. A similar feature machine new is quite a bit more expensive than a Tormach, not simply a few dollars more.



  5. #65
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    Default Re: HASS vs. Tormach 1100MX

    I bought a Tree J-425 for scrap value, replaced the control, new AC servos, new spindle drive and so on myself. I have around $9k in the machine and it's up and running. Dialed everything in and it's as accurate and repeatable as it was when new. It weighs 6000 pounds, has a Yaskawa 5HP continuous/7.5HP for 30 minutes spindle motor, 6k rpm, 30 x 15 x 6 (on the quill, 20 something on the knee) travels, I have rapids at 300 right now without issue. That price includes a new Fog Buster for coolant. CAT40 tooling. I wish it had a tool changer, but I'm getting faster at tool changes. My buddy bought a used Tormach for more than I have in my mill. It's a toy by comparison. It works for his shop space, etc and he's happy with it. One of the best things about going through the machine and doing my own control retrofit is I'm not afraid of the machine breaking and I learned a ton that will help me make better parts. I know this isn't for everyone, but it's another option. When I'm ready to upgrade I doubt I'll have any problem getting back what I have in it.



  6. #66
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    Default Re: HASS vs. Tormach 1100MX

    If you bill yourself $120 per hour for the time you put into the machine, how much do you have in it? :-)

    (Then again, if this is a hobby, not a business, then the enjoyment of doing the restoration is a positive, not a negative!)



  7. #67
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    Default Re: HASS vs. Tormach 1100MX

    Very fair point. I'm expanding my business into prototyping a product I'm developing. It did take some time(a couple months) to get the machine up and running. This fit my budget, and I was happy to put the time and effort in. I couldn't get what I have, for what I have in it another way. My business is in addition to my 40 hour a week job. I get about 45-55 hours a week in my shop. I've been doing this schedule for years. It works for me. In the next few years I will quit the day job and go full time in my shop. I enjoyed the process. And, I know the machine and it's control pretty well for having it such a short period of time. Offering up as another path for a guy that's bootstrapping.



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HASS vs. Tormach 1100MX

HASS vs. Tormach 1100MX