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Thread: HASS vs. Tormach 1100MX

  1. #41
    Member Kenny Duval's Avatar
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    Default Re: HASS vs. Tormach 1100MX

    As far as I know some of the stuff only requires the addition of an authentication key to activate the function. It's in the machine already for some of it.



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    Default Re: HASS vs. Tormach 1100MX

    In general, my thought is "Tormach, if you're paying out of future retirement savings, and it goes in your garage. Whatever is best for your job shop, if you're doing it for a business."

    I wonder how much those Mazak Integrex i100 5-axis boxes cost ... might be a better choice than a Haas, depending on what you do? And gets you a lathe, too :-D

    ... eBay says $150k plus for a 10 year old one. Might be an alternative to an upscale Haas, but not really an alternative for the Mini Mill or VF2.



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    Default Re: HASS vs. Tormach 1100MX

    At Fabtech, Haas was only one row over and 10 booths down from Tormach. The Tormach 1100MX was listed at 28K and the Hass TM-1 was 33K. Both machines side by side, there is no comparison. Done.



  4. #44
    Member Kenny Duval's Avatar
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    Default Re: HASS vs. Tormach 1100MX

    I think most here agree that's fair statement.



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    Default Re: HASS vs. Tormach 1100MX

    Hass TM-1
    Hass is an avocado.
    Haas is a machine tool.
    Just sayin' ! :-D



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    Default Re: HASS vs. Tormach 1100MX

    Quote Originally Posted by dpaish View Post
    At Fabtech, Haas was only one row over and 10 booths down from Tormach. The Tormach 1100MX was listed at 28K and the Hass TM-1 was 33K. Both machines side by side, there is no comparison. Done.
    Isn't that an 1100MX with a toolchanger and a TM-1 without a tool changer?
    You are correct. That's not a comparison.



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    Default Re: HASS vs. Tormach 1100MX

    The TM-1 tool changer (TM-1P) isn't that much more.

    TM-1P
    Starting Price: US$33,995
    40
    TAPER
    3
    AXIS
    6k
    RPM
    10
    TOOL CAPACITY
    I'm happy with the Tormach line, as they provide a lower price point, and smaller form factor. I can't stretch to the TM1P, even if I wanted to. Then again, I probably also can't stretch to a 1100MX. Putting servos on a dovetail table seems ... well, it's an upgrade, but ...

    Also: Still very triggered about the avocado based topic. Can we get a mod to change it? :-D



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    Default Re: HASS vs. Tormach 1100MX

    you dont have to buy hsm for haas if you know how to copy it from source code from another machine that does... just sayin



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    Servos come on dovetails all the time. It’s also why they tend to use turcite on large box way, dovetail machines. Guess I don’t really see the point of the comment. Box way and dovetail combos are also another $20,000 cost over a linear way built machine. Linear ways are good for high speed precision machining taking light cuts and softer material. If I was cutting steel all day I wouldn’t buy a linear way machine for sure. I have all sorts of variations between my machines and my work horse bed mill has boxed on z and y and dovetails on the x axis. It uses servos and can plow through steel at a 3/4 doc running 140ipm. Linear ways in respect are not only less expensive and less rigid they are not something I would easily say are the best given technology and the precision of today’s boxes ways have been proving superiority with some manufacturers. Turcite and rulon can create a slick enough surface you can push a 600lb table with your finger tip.

    Quote Originally Posted by jwatte View Post
    The TM-1 tool changer (TM-1P) isn't that much more.



    I'm happy with the Tormach line, as they provide a lower price point, and smaller form factor. I can't stretch to the TM1P, even if I wanted to. Then again, I probably also can't stretch to a 1100MX. Putting servos on a dovetail table seems ... well, it's an upgrade, but ...

    Also: Still very triggered about the avocado based topic. Can we get a mod to change it? :-D




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    Default Re: HASS vs. Tormach 1100MX

    Quote Originally Posted by warrenb View Post
    1982 Datsun Versus 2018 Dodge Ram.
    you'd never come across a burning haas on the side of the road



  11. #51
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    Default Re: HASS vs. Tormach 1100MX

    Quote Originally Posted by CL_MotoTech View Post
    Do you have a Syil?
    Not even syil has a syil. their cmts booth had a guy and a poster of a machine.

    The divide between who buys a tormach and who buys a haas is basically - who pays cash and who amortises in a business.

    If i have $10000, I have to buy what costs $10000. Thats probably something like a tormach - or a used brother tapping center, which is what I did buy.
    If i have a business that earns money, i do the math, and the $1000 a month lease on a haas will most likely earns more than the difference per month in a tormach mx1100 lease.

    It's the same rule that apples to all vmc's. You buy a $100k brother speedio instead of a $50k haas, cause you expect it to earn more than the difference. You buy a $500k mill turn instead of the brother for the same reason.

    This is the problem with the mx1100 really. It's a little cheaper, and a lot worse than the haas, while also being outside the normal "cash purchase" range. It does not take a big leap to just finance the better machine.

    wotzBotz


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    Default Re: HASS vs. Tormach 1100MX

    the one single advantage that the tormach has above the bigger machines is the power consumption , and I suppose space would be another one . Most guys can run a small haas out of their residential garage/shop , but most can also run numerous tormachs or other smaller machines at the same time
    .
    In my garage I'm usually running 4 mills , a lathe , a small compressor and a powder coat oven , along with numerous electronics . Considering the fact that my wife is cooking and or running the drier at any given time , then I can still slam in more machines and cut corners later if needed

    I don't look so much at the price point as I do practicality , the more machines I have running the more I'm earning per hour . I'm running a lot of parts that I'd say in the worst case is 2/3's the time and on some parts the only loss is in the rapid time in comparison to most of the machinery I've run in the trade

    A haas hands down is a superior machine in every way compared to a tormach , and they aren't really in the same category , but unless a guy is running out of an industrial building then he's pretty limited to the number of machines he can have running at the same time .
    I've considered upgrading more power from the pole to the house , but even then I'd be limited on power because it's an old grid and theres only so much power they'll allow me to have .

    Obviously it boils down what a guy need in a machine and I'm in the to each his own camp . I'd love to have a few horizontal mori's connected to cells , but I'm not making oil field parts so I can get by with much less



  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by ihavenofish View Post

    This is the problem with the mx1100 really. It's a little cheaper, and a lot worse than the haas, while also being outside the normal "cash purchase" range. It does not take a big leap to just finance the better machine.
    My thoughts as well. When you approach 25 -30k, the return is way better to bite bullet and get a VMC. I spent 65k on the brother. I had a novakon torus pro delivered at around 17k. If I bought 3 novakons, best case I'm moving 5 cubes per min in aluminum x 3. I'm moving 43 cubes per min on the brother at roughly 1/3 the floor space. And that doesn't begin to address the many other benefits of having a VMC.
    I made a crap ton of parts on the Novakon and it paid for itself + some over 5 years. The brother is one year old and at the current clip will be paid for in 6-8 months. I don't machine full time and travel a lot. If it's just a hobby, the tormach's, novakons etc are great if they can stay <14k delivered new. I just got to a point where I was leaving too much money on the table because i could only produce so much in a given day with limited capabilities. Especially when it comes to higher accuracy and harder Materials like stainless steel.

    My issue was it started as a way to prototype designs and it turned into making parts for $$. I wrung every inch out of the Torus, but should have pulled the trigger on a VMC way sooner.



  14. #54
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    Default Re: HASS vs. Tormach 1100MX

    I'm in the same boat, trying to pick a machine in that ~$30k range (+/-$3k) for prototyping, one-offs, and small production work. I've had a Shopmaster MillTurd at home, a Tormach series 3 at one work place, and Haas machines at other workplaces. My primary goal is to make money through design and consulting services with the ability to machine parts as a bonus rather than trying to compete as a machine shop.

    There's no doubt that the TM-1P and Mini-Mills are way more robust machines that you can get into around the same price as a loaded Tormach 1100MX, but those optional add-ons, those kill the dream pretty quick. Bumping up to a 10k spindle ($4200 vs. free), rigid tapping ($1600 vs free), just the drive for a 4th axis ($2600 vs. $200), the table for 4th axis (starting at ~$10000 vs $1600), want to add your own macros ($2900 vs free)... The list goes on and on... If I was to go the Haas route, it'd have to be a used machine that would be cheap enough to justify replacing the controller and otherwise modding

    On the flip side, Tormach really hasn't sold me on the new 1100MX. Where is all the excitement from their usual brand ambassadors, where are all the videos and testimonials? For a $30k machine, the spindle power is really low and the machine is really lightweight. At the University where I teach we have an 1100 sitting next to a Haas VF2-SS and it looks barely more substantial than the drill press. Add to that I've been waiting several days now just to get a formal quote from Tormach, it doesn't seem like they're even serious about selling the machines, wtf? I want to be excited about getting this machine, but all I'm finding are stories of leaking enclosures, sticking BT30 holders, and so-on.

    This has led me to expanding my search and I've got a couple serious options that fall into the same price range, the Syil X7 and the (TripleTreeCNC) Bos V5. Both of these have optional builds that will run on single-phase, but both vendors recommend phase converters which range from $1600-3500 so I can run more powerful spindles.

    The Syil has a pretty good following, lots of happy customers sharing their feedback and videos of the machines in use. Pricing is higher vs. the Bos and the X-travel is just a touch too short for some of the work I want to do (400mm/15.75"). They're also very tight-lipped about detailed specifications and their installation and user manuals are 11 & 12 pages, double-spaced.
    The Bos V5 appears to be an amazing machine for the money and the owner of the company is very forthcoming with details and quite responsive. If I was basing my purchase just on specs and the interactions with the representatives/sales-people, I'd definitely go with the Bos, no question. The flip side, it's a machine with a handful of pictures and I can't, independently, find any customer testimonials. Most everything is off-the-shelf, so in theory, replacements should be straight forward and not bound to the single-source...

    Then there's always the used-machine option, but it's like buying a used work-truck:
    the controller is going to be dated, so forget things like 1000 line/block look ahead
    4th axis support is questionable
    the ways and screws are going to be work to some unknown degree & has it been crashed/damaged?
    almost always, these are going to be 3-phase & who knows what modifications or patch jobs have been made over the years
    shipping is likely going to be complicated, including arranging a forklift at each end
    ....

    If I want a machine with the maximum range of capabilities and I'm less focused on speed, should I stick with the 'safe' Tormach option (if the new machine really is the safe option) or do I venture outside of the box with a 'boutique' brand like Syil or Bos? Or are there other options I'm missing entirely?
    Thanks



  15. #55
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    Default Re: HASS vs. Tormach 1100MX

    I'll give you my impressions of my Syil now that I have had it for a bit and have done several projects on it. I'll also include that I did not buy the machine new but I bought a used machine that had so little time on it that it might as well have been new. This did however reduce the price so that I was able to buy the machine, the rotary phase converter, add a 240v single phase circuit to the house and ship the machine for just north of $25k. That included the vises, tool holders and tooling the previous owner had purchased. So in my case a fantastic deal to fit my needs.

    Build quality of the machine is pretty solid. All I could find during my inspection of my machine is that the table is mounted to the linear trucks blocks just slightly out of perfect alignment. The squareness of the movement between X and Y is perfect it is simply the table that is slightly off if you run an indicator down the ground front side of the table or a T slot. That's it mechanically. Over all build quality if great aside from some enclosure sheet metal panels not being perfectly aligned. Nothing that impacts the functionality of the machine and the enclosure doesn't leak a drop. I think I created the only coolant on the floor issue by adding machine leveling casters to the machine to suit my need for having the machine up against wall most of the time but easily moved if I need to service anything inside the electrical cabinet. That created some additional gap between the u-shaped coolant tank and the enclosure. That allows for a little coolant to splash over the lip of the chip basket on occasion and spatter on the floor. I have a plan to fix that and don't think that is actually a Syil issue.

    My machine has the LNC5800 controller on it but I do not have a probe or automatic tool measurement on the machine. I did have these on my BF20L and while on that machine I would rather not live without them I have found myself not really missing them on the Syil. I suspect this is largely due to having the 12 tool changer on the machine. On the BF20L I always measures the tool during a tool change via my touch plate as part of the tool change process. On the Syil I have had to adapt to doing offsets prior to machining. That brings up one current minor negative for me. There is currently no way to use tools out side of the tool changer. If you have 12 tools loaded in the changer and want to call a tool number above 12 for a tool you rarely use then you are stuck. You'll have to swap out tools in the changer and renumber in your CAM. Now you could call tool 12 and then call a higher tool offset in the code but that for an inexperienced user could lead to a crash. I'd like to have the ability to call a tool and have the controller ask for that tool to be inserted. Something that the Siemens controller does allow you to do. That may be a good enough reason for the added expense of that controller. Aside from that one thing I find the control interface very easy to learn and move around in. No conversational either in the LNC but I don't do much of that so no big deal for me.

    The 3HP 10k spindle is plenty for my needs but if you are running higher production volumes you might want the 5HP option. I haven't needed a ton of support but when I have had a question or concern Jeff in the US office has been prompt and Mr. Chen has always been quick to respond via Skype and answer my questions. Yes the written information out of the factory could be a bit better but the support community documentation I have found to be pretty good.



  16. #56
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    Default Re: HASS vs. Tormach 1100MX

    If you don't care about speed, I'd buy the 1100M (not MX) without the ATC - Tormach's site puts that at ~18k. You could even go without the PDB, by hand you can change tools in less than 30 seconds. Rigid tapping would be nice but I've tapped tons of holes with a T/C holder just fine.

    I put a lot of value on US-based support from an established company when spending five figures on capital equipment.

    As the price tag starts heading towards 30k the Tormach compromises (light weight, low power, small ATC) make less sense to me. Decent used VMCs start showing up around 10-15k and that leaves you money for rigging, phase converter, tooling, and a decent repair budget. I'd love to upgrade to something like a MiniMill but my floors are only good for 250lbs/sqft, and if I'm honest with myself, my old 1100 does everything I need it to do.

    Whether the 1100MX really represents a midpoint between the 1100 and a MiniMill, I don't know. If I was thinking of spending $30k on a machine, I'd buy the plane ticket or make the drive to Wisconsin and see it make my parts in person before making my decision.



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    Default Re: HASS vs. Tormach 1100MX

    n1tr0 - Make sure to look at Automate CNC's TRX550 Pro. I've heard of a few folks who've had really good luck with them.

    Awall - The Body Armor Dude
    CoolCNCStuff_ on Instagram - CoolCNCStuff.com "coming soon"


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    Default Re: HASS vs. Tormach 1100MX

    https://hgrinc.com/productDetail/CNC...r/09191340002/

    $1350us for a used brother is decent shape, assuming the spindle is smooth, and the ways and ball screws tight (mine were - old brothers are cheap cause the control is largely considered useless these days).
    Add siemens 828d with 4 single phase servos and all the accessory bits for about $13000us. (ballpark based on my last cdn$ quote)

    Bit of clean up, paint touch up, maybe some new way cover seals and fittings from yamezen for a few hundred bucks.

    Pay someone a few grand to do all the work for you, you are still cheaper and 100 times better than the tormach, and probably have better service via siemens (2 year warranty on site for the control) and yamezen (parts).

    It makes it really hard to look at expensive tormach's when you can get a machine like that for less, with minimal "diy" effort.
    Cheap tormach's (or other similar mills) make much more sense.

    wotzBotz


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    Default Re: HASS vs. Tormach 1100MX

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny Duval View Post
    I'll give you my impressions of my Syil now that I have had it for a bit and have done several projects on it. I'll also include that I did not buy the machine new but I bought a used machine that had so little time on it that it might as well have been new. This did however reduce the price so that I was able to buy the machine, the rotary phase converter, add a 240v single phase circuit to the house and ship the machine for just north of $25k. That included the vises, tool holders and tooling the previous owner had purchased. So in my case a fantastic deal to fit my needs.
    ...
    The 3HP 10k spindle is plenty for my needs but if you are running higher production volumes you might want the 5HP option. I haven't needed a ton of support but when I have had a question or concern Jeff in the US office has been prompt and Mr. Chen has always been quick to respond via Skype and answer my questions. Yes the written information out of the factory could be a bit better but the support community documentation I have found to be pretty good.
    I did talk with Jeff yesterday and he was certainly friendlier and easier to talk with than the Haas rep. If I came across a really good deal on the Syil like you did, I could probably overlook the shorter X-travel. Did you find your deal locally, or do you have a site/source you can recommend?

    Quote Originally Posted by smokediver576 View Post
    n1tr0 - Make sure to look at Automate CNC's TRX550 Pro. I've heard of a few folks who've had really good luck with them.
    Thanks for the reminder. The specs and pricing on their machine was really competitive. Their bed size (40" long), travel (21.5"X, 11"Y, & 18" Z), and claimed rapids (either 600ipm or 1000ipm depending on where you read it) are all the very best in the price range.
    I had put in a quote request with them last week, but no response so they'd fallen off the radar. I will say, in looking around for videos of their equipment, I came across their tool-setter installation video and it's a little cringe-worthy. Any company reps reading this, please make sure to use grommets at pass-thrus and proper electrical connectors.

    Quote Originally Posted by sansbury View Post
    If you don't care about speed, I'd buy the 1100M (not MX) without the ATC - Tormach's site puts that at ~18k. You could even go without the PDB, by hand you can change tools in less than 30 seconds. Rigid tapping would be nice but I've tapped tons of holes with a T/C holder just fine.

    I put a lot of value on US-based support from an established company when spending five figures on capital equipment.

    As the price tag starts heading towards 30k the Tormach compromises (light weight, low power, small ATC) make less sense to me. Decent used VMCs start showing up around 10-15k and that leaves you money for rigging, phase converter, tooling, and a decent repair budget. I'd love to upgrade to something like a MiniMill but my floors are only good for 250lbs/sqft, and if I'm honest with myself, my old 1100 does everything I need it to do.

    Whether the 1100MX really represents a midpoint between the 1100 and a MiniMill, I don't know. If I was thinking of spending $30k on a machine, I'd buy the plane ticket or make the drive to Wisconsin and see it make my parts in person before making my decision.
    I've had machines without a PDB or ATC, but there's no way I'd go back, my time is worth more than those savings.
    US-based support from an established company definitely carries some value, but it is a balancing act. A company has to value your business and time in return too.

    I'm not opposed to flying out to inspect a machine before pulling the trigger, but I don't want to fly out to 4 different places.

    Just a quick list of new machines I'm aware of in the ~$30k range:
    Syil X7
    TripleTreeCNC Bos V5
    Automate CNC TRX 550 Pro
    Tormach 1100MX
    Haas MiniMill
    Haas TM-1P
    Skyfire CNC SVM-2
    WEISS Machine & Tools USA V5/V5l (?)
    ...
    am I missing any?

    Last edited by n1tr0; 01-14-2020 at 05:43 PM. Reason: added list of machines


  20. #60
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    Default Re: HASS vs. Tormach 1100MX

    Quote Originally Posted by n1tr0 View Post
    I did talk with Jeff yesterday and he was certainly friendlier and easier to talk with than the Haas rep. If I came across a really good deal on the Syil like you did, I could probably overlook the shorter X-travel. Did you find your deal locally, or do you have a site/source you can recommend?
    Oddly enough I was poking around the internet one night researching and happened to get a response from a search string that included an add on OfferUp. Was the last place I expected to find one. It was in California along with a lathe. If I had the room I would have bought them both. There is one I know of for sale via the Syil Facetube group.

    https://southcoast.craigslist.org/tl...027389324.html



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HASS vs. Tormach 1100MX

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HASS vs. Tormach 1100MX