I was thinking the same thing.
IMO, Tormach was already at the outer limits in terms of pricing for the hobby market under the old prices. The new pricing is clearly aimed more towards the small business market which has a lot more competition.
If you take the typical lease / financing option that most small businesses would use, the difference in price between an 1100m / mx and a Haas mini mill is negligible and, as you said, you get a lot more with the Haas.
Haas offers a more robust machine with a 40 taper spindle, a 7.5hp motor, options to upgrade to 16,000 rpm and 24,000, a much larger work envelope, a better drive system, better software etc...
Also, I am not convinced that the extra power on the MX spindles is enough of an upgrade to be worth it. 2hp at 7500 is only 1.4 ft lb. you could do better by adding a high speed companion spindle.
Anyway, all that is just first impressions and perception. I would interested to see what sort of users are buying the new Tormach machines and hearing what they are actually capable off.
I noticed that they no longer have complete replacement heads for sale on their site. I wonder if they plan to sell the new MX heads as an upgrade for existing customers.
Bolton tool claim to make all their own mills and lathes etc and they offer similar spec machines to Tormach in a similar price range.
CNC milling machine
Last edited by Goemon; 06-22-2018 at 04:31 PM.
The new prices are lower than the old prices when freight is accounted for, not sure what you mean. The bare bones mini-mill is pretty close to $30K. What would freight and rigging cost for that? Add $3-5K for a phase converter. Now you’re about double the cost of a fully-loaded 1100M. Yes, you’re getting much more capability but way out of reach compared to the 1100.
Also, the M and MX have the same spindle HP I believe. MX adds the spindle encoder, servos, and BT30 taper spindle. Who knows the price although I think if you order an M now you can buy the upgrade kit with your order.
You could run a Haas machine with 220 1ph power through a VFD (which is also what Tormach does). You might struggle with their 20hp motors but their 7.5hp motors can easily work on 1ph. I run a 3ph 7.5hp spindle from a 240v 1 ph outlet here. You just need to install a large enough breaker. A 50a breaker covers it easily and costs $10. My VFD draws 34a 1ph to output 20a 3ph.
I see what you are saying on the price difference but I still think that, in the context of a money-making production CNC machine that is paid off monthly, the difference is small. The difference would matter for a hobby level user paying cash up-front but, IMO, neither machine is priced for non-money making purposes.
It is worth reiterating that we aren't talking about a comparably tooled up machine when we compare a Haas mini mill to a Tormach 1100. The Haas offers a meaningfully superior capability in speed, work envelope, stiffness / accuracy - all things that increase the earnings potential and matter for a production machine. That is how a smart business man (or woman) would look at it. How much can I make vs how much does it cost per month.
As several other posters have noted the 770-3/1100-3 is very close to the price of the 770M/1100M when the cost of a control computer, PDB/ATC, enclosure and shipping are considered. Why would the new machines not continue to appeal to the same sort of customers who bought the older models?
Maybe because Haas told me just a few years ago they would not warrantee the machine if run on a phase converter. I guess it could have been sales people that didn't want to sell or support a machine in a residential setting. They were not helpful and turned me off to purchasing their product real fast.
As others here have said, there is no need for a phase converter with a machine that runs through a VFD. So it's a non-issue. Most of us here run 3 phase spindles from 1ph outlets. You just need the right size VFD.
I run a 7.5hp 3ph spindle through a VFD from a residential 1ph 50a 240v outlet.
If I was prepared to invest more cash in buying a larger main breaker, some 125a individual breakers with an industrial receptacle, I could power a far larger 3ph motor from a 1ph outlet.
The older models had a meaningfully lower entry price for people that didn't want to invest in bells and whistles. The base 700 was around $7000... I agree that, for people who were going to buy a fully loaded machine anyway, the new pricing doesn't make much of a difference. I think that the higher entry price eliminates the hobby market though (I don't know how large that was anyway).
Once a person gets their head around spending $15,000 - $25,000 on a production machine, a lot more options open up. I guess it's up to the individual to decide if the new Tormach models are the best way to spend $20,000 to get up and running. In addition to the competion from Haas, Bolton tools and these guys:
https://www.cncmasters.com/product/c...lling-machine/
this is a market that has no shortage of low hours used machines in that price range too.
I guess its not real large market but I see and know people with some AMAZING hobbies. For me the cost of support tooling was equal or more then the cnc machines and still adding up. I just replaced my air compressor with a large full duty cycle unit. Needed to retire the small one to portable needs before it burned up and burned my shop down.
edit: I keep forgetting that just a few years ago the cost for a decent cad and cam solution was between 3k$ and 10k$ and now more or less free entry. Recently I had to change cad software to something that could be maintained long term. I can now draw models in hours if not minutes that took days or weeks to draw before. I enjoy this upgrade a lot . keeps me out in the shop more.
Last edited by mountaindew; 06-29-2018 at 09:46 AM.
If you want cheaper, there's always the Grizzlys and LMS-es of the world.
I don't think anyone with employees on US soil would want to compete in that area long term. (I don't know how LMS does it.)
LMS is often not that great of a price. What they have going for them is a huge selection of tools specififcally for the small machine guys. Some things you just can't find anywhere else state side inclduig things like metal replacement gear sets for machines that come with plastic gears, or collet closers for mini lathes Also, mini machines with common and useful mods already installed. Like gas spring head support and fixed columns instead of tilt columns. I keep looking at their high torque mini mills, but I really want a full size knee mill as my manual machine for those times when CNC takes longer to setup than it would take to just turn some handles.
Anyway, LMS does a great job of support a niche within the hobby market. I've bought lots of parts and some tools from them for my smaller machines.
Bob La Londe
http://www.YumaBassMan.com
And while we are on the subject of LMS, they carry a number of Tormach products and their shipping costs to non-US locations is considerable cheaper than Tormach.