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    Default Help me determine the best ROI!

    How is everyone tonight? So I have an upcoming mill purchase coming up. I am looking at a Haas Mini Mill , Mini Mill2, or a Tormach PCNC1100 with the part maker package. I am not trying to start a flame war, but I’m needing help on deciding on the best ROI. I will be machining titanium and S90V stainless steel. Budget is limited so please know a VF2 isn’t an option. The Mini Mill is around $10000 more expensive and th Mini Mill2 is around $17000. The main reason why I am considering these machines is because of the WIPS that will allow me to do lights out work. My time is limited so this feature seems real appealing. Production volume will be low. I have owned a Tormach PCNC1100 and had to sell it due to a job layoff, but was happy with the performance. I could buy two Tormach’s for the price of one of these machines. What would be the better ROI?

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    Default Re: Help me determine the best ROI!

    It's a no-brainer: A single Haas will run circles around even two Tormachs, or any other comparable "hobby" mill. The Haas will do most of the work you'll do as much as 3-5X faster than a Tormach, and with much better accuracy and repeatability. With hard metals like Titanium and SS, the difference will be even greater.

    Regards,
    Ray L.



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    Quote Originally Posted by SCzEngrgGroup View Post
    It's a no-brainer: A single Haas will run circles around even two Tormachs, or any other comparable "hobby" mill. The Haas will do most of the work you'll do as much as 3-5X faster than a Tormach, and with much better accuracy and repeatability. With hard metals like Titanium and SS, the difference will be even greater.

    Regards,
    Ray L.
    So the mini mill would be a better investment then? If I couple the lights out machining then the Haas pulls ahead.



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    Default Re: Help me determine the best ROI!

    If it was me I'd take the two 1100's, but you seem to have more money than time (which is why I assume you are concerned about running lights out) so like Ray says, I'd also go for the HAAS.

    Juan


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    Default Re: Help me determine the best ROI!

    Haas minimill would be the better investment.
    40 Taper tooling (no pullout)
    Higher spindle HP and torque
    Faster feedrates
    More rigidity
    Reliable toolchanger
    Rigid tapping
    More accuracy



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    Default Re: Help me determine the best ROI!

    I bought a Mini Mill last year and I have to say it is a great machine. It is an investment, but they do hold their value very well for resale later on. The high cost of good used ones helped my decision to buy new instead.
    It does 10 times the work our Novakon Pulsar did and is faster and more accurate doing it. I bought it to help the Pulsar out with production, but I have barely ever even turned the Pulsar on since having the Mini Mill.
    The big feature that allows most of this increased production is the ATC.
    I have even been considering replacing our CRP router for cutting polycarbonate with a different Haas mill.
    Maybe one day.

    Lee


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    Quote Originally Posted by SCzEngrgGroup View Post
    It's a no-brainer: A single Haas will run circles around even two Tormachs, or any other comparable "hobby" mill. The Haas will do most of the work you'll do as much as 3-5X faster than a Tormach, and with much better accuracy and repeatability. With hard metals like Titanium and SS, the difference will be even greater.

    Regards,
    Ray L.
    Ray, contrary to popular belief, titanium is not hard, it’s tuff. You can actually cut it with a sharp pocket knife if you can move it slow enough.

    It cuts exactly like aluminum but at 10 to15% of the feed and speed.

    I cut a lot of Inconel 718 on my 1100 and it works just fine.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Master_Arvist View Post
    So the mini mill would be a better investment then? If I couple the lights out machining then the Haas pulls ahead.
    If there is any way you can pull it off, a VF2 would put you light years ahead of even a mini mill



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    Default Re: Help me determine the best ROI!

    Master Arvist,
    If this is for a true production environment then buy the most machine you can afford. In the long run the cost of the machine is small compared to labor. If you price 5-7 year old used machines with 7-10000 hours you’ll find they run about 50% of new. So if you buy a $50k machine, run it for 5yrs and 10k hours, sell it for $25k, you spent $25k ( plus tooling and maintenance). The 10k hours of run time cost a lot more in labor, $250k if you pay yourself $25/hr.



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    Quote Originally Posted by IMT View Post
    Master Arvist,
    If this is for a true production environment then buy the most machine you can afford. In the long run the cost of the machine is small compared to labor. If you price 5-7 year old used machines with 7-10000 hours you’ll find they run about 50% of new. So if you buy a $50k machine, run it for 5yrs and 10k hours, sell it for $25k, you spent $25k ( plus tooling and maintenance). The 10k hours of run time cost a lot more in labor, $250k if you pay yourself $25/hr.


    Great analogy.
    I’m going to share it with my wife to convince her to let me get that new Doosan



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    Default Re: Help me determine the best ROI!

    Good luck.
    IF you have the work it’ll pay for itself.
    If not it’ll make a really expensive shop ornament.



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    Default Re: Help me determine the best ROI!

    This may sounds backwards, but at this price point I’m going I look at the TM2P due to travel size. I already have people interested in work and I’m 5 months out on a machine purchase. I did request for a quote for a Hurco VM10i since a lot of people suggest them for a smaller machine. My only concern with the TM series is the coolant tank size. I’ve decided to build a larger capacity tank if I go this route. Realistically the TM series will more than likely be in my price range. I’m looking at the 20 tool arc, Renishaw probe, high flow coolant, rigid tapping, and chip auger for my addons. I will get the hsm after the free trial runs out.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by CadRhino View Post
    Great analogy.
    I’m going to share it with my wife to convince her to let me get that new Doosan
    What price ranges are the Doosans in?



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    Quote Originally Posted by Master_Arvist View Post
    This may sounds backwards, but at this price point I’m going I look at the TM2P due to travel size. I already have people interested in work and I’m 5 months out on a machine purchase. I did request for a quote for a Hurco VM10i since a lot of people suggest them for a smaller machine. My only concern with the TM series is the coolant tank size. I’ve decided to build a larger capacity tank if I go this route. Realistically the TM series will more than likely be in my price range. I’m looking at the 20 tool arc, Renishaw probe, high flow coolant, rigid tapping, and chip auger for my addons. I will get the hsm after the free trial runs out.

    - - - Updated - - -



    What price ranges are the Doosans in?
    I don’t know yet. All I know is that many of the vendors I work with have them and they are amazing. I’m sure I’m just dreaming



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    Quote Originally Posted by CadRhino View Post
    I don’t know yet. All I know is that many of the vendors I work with have them and they are amazing. I’m sure I’m just dreaming
    There was a thread on PM of a guy who got a new Doosan for $65kish. I'd love to have one. Supposed to be extremely rigid. Seems like most the users on that forum consider HAAS to be floppy noodles. They refer to the hp rating on the spindle as "HAAS POWER" instead of horsepower. I'd still be happy to have a HAAS though. I do mostly aluminum and don't need the ultra accuracy of a Doosan.



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    Quote Originally Posted by AUSTINMACHINING View Post
    There was a thread on PM of a guy who got a new Doosan for $65kish. I'd love to have one. Supposed to be extremely rigid. Seems like most the users on that forum consider HAAS to be floppy noodles. They refer to the hp rating on the spindle as "HAAS POWER" instead of horsepower. I'd still be happy to have a HAAS though. I do mostly aluminum and don't need the ultra accuracy of a Doosan.
    Good to know.
    I really want a brother 700 but looking at a haas tm-2p since I do mostly aluminum. I’d love a doosan mill/lathe. I didn’t knoe they were that cheap



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    Quote Originally Posted by CadRhino View Post
    Good to know.
    I really want a brother 700 but looking at a haas tm-2p since I do mostly aluminum. I’d love a doosan mill/lathe. I didn’t knoe they were that cheap

    The thread was a while back,but the gist was many of the options Haas charges for are standard on the Doosan, so Apple's to Apple's the prices were similar in the end,but the Doosan was considered a much more rigid machine.

    The Brothers are awesome. If I was doing massive production runs, that would be the ultimate, but I do a huge variety of parts in small runs where more Z travel could be useful.

    Still looking...



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    Default Re: Help me determine the best ROI!

    What’s your game here really? If you’re making a product, I’d look really hard at outsourcing that production to somebody unless there is a really good reason to DIY. The ROI on better sales and marketing will probably beat any machine. That said I know sometimes owning your manufacturing is part of your competitive edge.

    Just be sure—Too many guys spend 90% of their time thinking about how to make widgets and 10% how to sell them. You should be doing closer to the reverse. Also, the #1 reason businesses fail is insufficient working capital. Don’t spend so much on a machine for your best-case scenario that you can’t survive a few flat tires along the way.



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    Default Re: Help me determine the best ROI!

    Too many guys spend 90% of their time thinking about how to make widgets and 10% how to sell them. You should be doing closer to the reverse.
    This is absolutely true. The trouble is that some of us really don't enjoy the market development and cold sales at all, and get all our rewards from seeing real products come out of a well-set-up production system.
    This is presumably also why good sales people are much more expensive than good engineers and machinists...



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    Default Re: Help me determine the best ROI!

    In my day job (software) good salespeople and good engineers cost about the same--a lot!

    It's fine to be someone who likes making parts more than you enjoy selling them, but you have to sell enough to make it worthwhile. And there are markets for people obsessed with product: John Grimsmo seems to be doing well enough that you have to take a lottery number and wait for your turn to buy one of his knives. There always seems to be a market for someone who makes the very best of a thing, and that either means manufacturing in house or having very good suppliers, which is tough for a small operation. I have to admit I laughed though when I saw the recent tour John Saunders did of Triton Aerospace--here's a guy making parts that fly into space, and he's using a Haas while Grimsmo makes pocket knives on a DMG. Still seems to me like he's got an awful lot of dough in machinery...



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    This is some great advice for those of us making/selling products


    QUOTE=sansbury;2177460]What’s your game here really? If you’re making a product, I’d look really hard at outsourcing that production to somebody unless there is a really good reason to DIY. The ROI on better sales and marketing will probably beat any machine. That said I know sometimes owning your manufacturing is part of your competitive edge.

    Just be sure—Too many guys spend 90% of their time thinking about how to make widgets and 10% how to sell them. You should be doing closer to the reverse. Also, the #1 reason businesses fail is insufficient working capital. Don’t spend so much on a machine for your best-case scenario that you can’t survive a few flat tires along the way.[/QUOTE]



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