Little Things - Page 2


Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 50

Thread: Little Things

  1. #21
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    7063
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: Little Things

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob La Londe View Post
    I guess I don't "really" see the value of being able to use the "wrong" tool height.
    Bob,

    I've never understood the utility either, but keep in mind the roots of RS-274 G-code go ll the way back to the 1950s, on computers with VERY little computing power, and VERY limited memory, and it has to work on a VERY wide range of machine types. That particular functionality may be of no value on a mill, but indispensible on some other kind of machine. One application I can see: Suppose you want to be able to run the same toolpath with two different tools? Perhaps after one tool breaks or wears out, you want to keep going using another tool already loaded into another slot? Still seems to me mostly useful for handed-coded g-code. If you have CAM, you just change the value in the CAM and re-POST.

    But it is what it is, and we have to live with it.

    If only it were practical to define a new 21-century g-code, it would be radically different, and orders of magnitude more user-friendly than RS-274...

    Regards,
    Ray L.



  2. #22
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Location
    on my feet
    Posts
    962
    Downloads
    1
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: Little Things

    if you need 12 tools on a 10 tool magazine then variable h values are handy , you assign the extra tools as t10 (or whatever the last tool was ) h??? with an obvious m0 or use m1 before hand bombing the extra tools . I've used different h numbers for various reasons over the years just as I have varying d comp numbers . Even though there can be more tool offset numbers than there are magazine pots , most machines will alarm if t12 is called on a 10 tool machine



  3. #23

    Default Re: Little Things

    Quote Originally Posted by metalmayhem View Post
    if you need 12 tools on a 10 tool magazine then variable h values are handy , you assign the extra tools as t10 (or whatever the last tool was ) h??? with an obvious m0 or use m1 before hand bombing the extra tools . I've used different h numbers for various reasons over the years just as I have varying d comp numbers . Even though there can be more tool offset numbers than there are magazine pots , most machines will alarm if t12 is called on a 10 tool machine


    Actually no. That is one thing Tormach did better than that and to some degree already exists in LinuxCNC AND Mach3. You can have more tools in your tool table than you can hold in your carousel. Tormach's PathPilot implementation of LinuxCNC just stops and tells you to manually load the tool. No mucking about. I've done quite a bit of testing there with things like that in mind. I can easily go from ATC tools to hand loaded tools, and back and Tormach's implementation manages it just fine. I loads and unloads tools from the ATC as needed, and stops and tells you to load or unload tools that are in the tool table that were not loaded in the ATC. No mucking about. The machine manages the dumb stuff LIKE IT SHOULD and it TELLS YOU to do your part when its time to do your part. No that part is very good and absolutely no mucking about is required.

    I won't hesitate to give Tormach a thrashing when they deserve one, but manual vs automatic tool changes is a non issue. They did that part pretty well.

    My issue (mostly resolved) is with ANY tool change requiring you to tell it "use this tool" and then almost redundantly having to say "ok now apply the parameters for this tool."


    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com


  4. #24
    Member Steve Seebold's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    USA and proud of it
    Posts
    1863
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: Little Things

    How does the ATC in a Tormach know which pocket holds tool 1, tool 2 and so on?

    Can you call any pocket tool 1 and just rename the turret?

    I used to own a FADAL and a Haas and on those machines I could tell the control tool 1 was in any pocket.



  5. #25
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    7063
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: Little Things

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Seebold View Post
    How does the ATC in a Tormach know which pocket holds tool 1, tool 2 and so on?

    Can you call any pocket tool 1 and just rename the turret?

    I used to own a FADAL and a Haas and on those machines I could tell the control tool 1 was in any pocket.
    As on nearly all machines with ATCs, you setup a table that maps tool numbers to slot numbers. Any tool can be in any slot.

    Regards,
    Ray L.



  6. #26

    Default Re: Little Things

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Seebold View Post
    How does the ATC in a Tormach know which pocket holds tool 1, tool 2 and so on?

    Can you call any pocket tool 1 and just rename the turret?

    I used to own a FADAL and a Haas and on those machines I could tell the control tool 1 was in any pocket.
    You can place a tool in the spindle, tell it which tool it is, and then tell it to store it in the ATC, or you clip the tools into the ATC and tell it which tools are in which slots. Then it remembers. Any tool can be in any fork on the carousel. You store it when you load it. Even has a nice graphic interface that shows you the current orientation of the ATC and the numbers of the tools currently loaded and stored. The tool table is a separate page where you can store upto 255 tools not counting tool zero which should be the spindle face.

    If I have some time this afternoon I'll snap a picture and show you the graphic interface for the carousel. Its pretty decent.

    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com


  7. #27
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    53
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: Little Things

    As long as we're talking about jobs that take more than 10 tools in the ATC and having to hand load / unload a tool or three...the only issue I have with how PathPilot handles this is unless you proactively account for the hand loaded tool in the CAM, there is never enough Z clearance to remove the previously hand-loaded tool. The machine pauses at the clearance height and prompts the operator to remove the tool. I've been caught out by this several times. It's not the end of the world to stop the program, manually jog an axis in order to remove the tool, then find where to restart the program, HOWEVER, it would be nice if PathPilot would send the Z axis to the ATC height for hand loaded tools, thus providing enough clearance to remove the tool and be ready to feed the spindle a tool from the ATC if necessary. Maybe I'm missing something. Wouldn't be the first time I'm doing it wrong.

    Bob - the lastest versions of PathPilot added something like 1000 tools in the tool table. Nice if you assigned all your letter, number, and fractional drills and found yourself running out for those pesky endmills.



  8. #28

    Default Re: Little Things

    You know your mention of tool height clearance is something I have addressed on my Mach 3 machines. I wrote my own tool change macros that raise the spindle to my "safe z" height and a few other things as part of the tool change. Because they all have to be manually touched off and the program may not know the X or Y may have been changed to allow me to touch off for tool height I also store the X & Y in a variable, and then return to that location as the last part of the tool change.
    I also edited the M30 macros to raise the tool spindle to safe z on the program end.

    I know eventually I am going to learn how to do write or modify macros for PathPilot for similar fixes.


    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com


  9. #29
    Member nitewatchman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Birmingham, Alabama
    Posts
    477
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: Little Things

    Have you looked at adding M998 to a line before the manual tool change? I guess for that matter it could be added by the postprocessor before every tool change, it should drive the tool to tool change position which is where M06 is sending it anyway.

    I usually edit a high positive Z position before the change.

    gary

    Quote Originally Posted by 74BurkeMVN View Post
    As long as we're talking about jobs that take more than 10 tools in the ATC and having to hand load / unload a tool or three...the only issue I have with how PathPilot handles this is unless you proactively account for the hand loaded tool in the CAM, there is never enough Z clearance to remove the previously hand-loaded tool. The machine pauses at the clearance height and prompts the operator to remove the tool. I've been caught out by this several times. It's not the end of the world to stop the program, manually jog an axis in order to remove the tool, then find where to restart the program, HOWEVER, it would be nice if PathPilot would send the Z axis to the ATC height for hand loaded tools, thus providing enough clearance to remove the tool and be ready to feed the spindle a tool from the ATC if necessary. Maybe I'm missing something. Wouldn't be the first time I'm doing it wrong.

    Bob - the lastest versions of PathPilot added something like 1000 tools in the tool table. Nice if you assigned all your letter, number, and fractional drills and found yourself running out for those pesky endmills.




  10. #30
    Member kstrauss's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    1788
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: Little Things

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob La Londe View Post
    The tool table is a separate page where you can store upto 255 tools not counting tool zero which should be the spindle face.
    With the latest version of PP you can have 1000 entries in the tool table.



  11. #31
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    53
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: Little Things

    Quote Originally Posted by nitewatchman View Post
    Have you looked at adding M998 to a line before the manual tool change? I guess for that matter it could be added by the postprocessor before every tool change, it should drive the tool to tool change position which is where M06 is sending it anyway.

    I usually edit a high positive Z position before the change.

    gary
    Ahhhh M998! No, I had no idea...thanks Gary I'll try it out!



  12. #32

    Default Re: Little Things

    Well a few more little things.

    I've been using the 1100 mostly for rough prep work and secondary work. Yesterday I let it tackle its first "real" cash job and I had to fill it up and run some coolant. The job was a too big for the Speedmasters to do in a single setup, and the details were large enough not to need tiny cutters

    The coolant tank needs between 4 and 5 gallons before the pump starts to pick up. This means it may need to be topped off a couple times a day when running a decent amount of on-time. I saw a little foaming after just a 2.5 hour job yesterday. Foaming typically only occurs when the coolant tank is getting pretty low on my other machines.

    With TTS and PDB it will not hold a 1/2 inch end mill roughing 6061. Even with fairly reduced cutting loads. A 3/8 seemed to hold just fine. Even at nearly the same loads (maybe 90%. That is setup, pulled back and setup again as per the manual.

    I've had to adjust the air flow three times now on the ATC. It failed under yesterday's job. I had walked away for a little bit near the end of the job. The machine looked like it had finished the job, but the last several drilling operations had not been done. It was a little confusing at first because it looked like it had executed the end of the program which included a G30 to raise the head when it was done. It was back at line 1 on the code display, so I had to look carefully at everything to determine what had happened. It still had a tool used in previous operations in the spindle. After adjusting the ATC I ran all those drilling operations and the code was fine.

    Sometimes the machine has an issue and seems to lock up. Bad tool change sometimes does it. I've had it happen other times too. Usually its input related. It has happened often enough that it is not a fluke. Nothing works. It just locks up. Reset doesn't work, shutdown doesn't work. Even the E-stop button doesn't work. I have to hard kill the machine with the power switch and restart. Could be that used computer they sent me to replace the original computer that didn't work out of the box. I'm sure I mentioned it but just in case I didn't. That used replacement had to be repaired before I could use it. It had several loose motherboard screws rattling around in the cabinet and a bad (physically broken) SATA cable that had to be replaced.

    The electronic tool height setter is a waste of time and money in my opinion. Mine feels "loose" and out of the box was not even close to the dimension specified in the documentation. I found the height gage was easier and faster to use except that...

    The height gage works ok with the little tiny surface plate, but its a little sticky making it hard to slowly set it down gently on the tool tip. The surface plate is rough under my hand compared to my bigger 24 x 36 B rated surface plate. Its probably ok, but running my hand over it to make sure its clear of any fine grit or stray chips makes me grit my teeth like finger nails on a chalk board. I have a better dual column height gage I may use instead. After I check the little tool holder surface plate for flat and parallel with it I may just set it on my bigger surface plate so there is enough room to move the height gage around. The plate is awfully small. It really needs in my opinion to be about an inch bigger for fast comfortable measurement.

    As I suspected would happen chip dams form around the drop in filter screen. Just enough to slow the flow of coolant back to the tank. I think I commented on that before I ever ran the machine the first time. I definitely need to do what I said and modify it so it can be slid in below the table instead.

    The chip pan could benefit from multiple drains. I may add a pair of under the pan sink drain in the front on opposite sides of the base. I'd be tempted to add a third over the computer, but well, that makes me nervous. I know how to do an undermount that doesn't leak, but "if" it does...

    Oh, one more thing I nearly forgot. The air oiler seems to loose its prime if it sits very long at all. I think I mentioned this before too. When I power up the machine I pull the output line to prime the oiler every single time as part of my startup routine. I've noticed a lot of those cheap Chinese air oilers do that though. If they have continuous air flow they eventually pick up oil and self prime, but sitting they loose prime, and intermittent air blasts isn't enough to make it flow again.

    If it were a knife (which it kinds of is) I'd say its got a loose uncomfortable handle, but it will cut.

    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com


  13. #33

    Default Re: Little Things

    Interesting information, Bob. I don't own a Tormach, though have window shopped via the Tormach website more than once. As of now I just can't justify the price tag. But that doesn't stop me from hanging out in Tormach threads and reading up on the pros and cons of the machines.

    I do have a converted G0704, and when I built my enclosure I installed three drains. I had never built an enclosure before, I was just guessing... It's rare that I get a coolant backup even without any type of chip conveyance. I also use a 13 gallon tank which will give me 20 hours of run time before I need to top if off. It seems the Tormach is poorly designed in this respect.

    It's also interesting to hear that the tool height setter isn't meeting your expectations. I have a rather cheap unit that I wired in series with my touch probe that is good for +/- .0002", which I actually attribute to a lack of repeatability on my homing/limit switch, not the setter itself. It certainly took some fine tuning on my part to get it to that point though.

    Anyways, thanks for posting.



  14. #34
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    53
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: Little Things

    Sounds like a lot of issues over there. Kind of the opposite here.

    I've had my 1100 series III from new since May of 2017. I've never used the flood coolant. Most of what I make is from 6061 and the dual Fogbuster setup has worked just fine for that. I did have a job I spent about 10 days on machining 316 stainless on the 4th axis, so I just cranked up the coolant flow and stuck a butter tub under the part while it ran (2-1/2 hour cycle time).

    I added some alu. sheet skirts on my machine that bridge from the base casting to the chip tray "wings". They cover up that recessed area to the base where the chinsy drop in filter screen is and makes chip clean out a lot easier. I guess it would be an interesting experiment to see how it worked with flood coolant. My skirts are certainly not water tight but they do a great job of keeping chips off the base.

    I've never had one problem with my ATC that wasn't due to un-perfect alignment. Once I got it squared away and learned how not to crash it, it changes tools flawlessly for more than a year now. Tighten up those metering valve lock nuts with pliers.

    I got the electric "automatic" oiler with my machine, also still working fine.

    I did have a TTS holder pull out of the collet once, but that was because one of my co-workers helping me assemble & setup the machine didn't have the PDB preload tight enough. I run a 3" long 1/2" carbide endmill all the time profiling 6061 1-1/4 thick. Admittedly, I don't take a lot of radial engagement with it - I do all the heavy removal with the single insert shear-hog.

    I also have the ETS, but once I figured out what I was doing (zero CNC experience prior, but TONS of manual machine experience), it's faster for me to use the height gauge. I agree - the footprint of that granite block is tight, but the surface finish on mine is nice & smooth. Chinese QA?

    The only actual issue I've had, which I'm in the middle of replacing right now, has been with the solenoid valve that ships with the Fogbuster. From pretty early on, mine has repeatedly failed to cut the airflow off when electrically disengaged. I called Tormach on it and they even have a bulletin on the issue instructing you to disassemble the valve, clean and oil it. That does work - for about a day, then it's back to grabbing something to whack the solenoid with to shut it off. I have an SMC valve I'm replacing it with.

    I won't argue that the Tormach is a great machine comparable to industry leading manufacturers, but it is a giant step ahead of the manual machine I had been making parts on for 16 years. It's a pretty good fit for the type and quantity of parts I make. That said, I didn't write the check, my employer did (they wouldn't go for the Haas I wanted). If I did, I might be disappointed in actual vs. advertised performance. It has left me wanting more (RPM, rapids, rigidity), but happy to say that it's at least been reliable and trouble free (not counting the Fogbuster solenoid).




  15. #35

    Default Re: Little Things

    I'm not sold on it. My feelings are probably still a little bent about getting a used broken (admittedly working) computer as a replacement for a bad computer, so I suppose I look at everything very critically with this machine. To be quite honest had I realized how little price difference there was between a HAAS Mini Mill and a Tormach in Partmaker configuration I would have bought the HAAS.

    The oiler I refer to is the air oiler for the air operated components.

    The electric machine oiler works fine. I have 4 other very similar electric machine oilers in service that work just as well. The one on the 1100 makes 5. Actually I have a couple more in my parts cabinet for spares and machine builds.

    I've bought enough new machines now that my rose colored glasses have been bleached clear a long time ago.


    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com


  16. #36
    Member mountaindew's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    earth
    Posts
    2151
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: Little Things

    Wow

    "The electronic tool height setter is a waste of time and money in my opinion. Mine feels "loose" and out of the box was not even close to the dimension specified in the documentation. I found the height gage was easier and faster to use except that...''



    That tool setter costs 1000.00$ bucks if it's junk then I would be very upset.

    Been wanting to convert to this system for years in hopes it would add precision



  17. #37

    Default Re: Little Things

    Well, I ran the second half of the today. (Two part hinged casting mold) Almost unsupervised. Only one problem and it was self induced. I advanced the feed rate slider and the machine shut down cold. Interesting. Under Mach if you advance the feed rate beyond what the machine will do it just doesn't go any faster than its max set speed. With PP it shut down the job and rewound to line one. How annoying. After I got it going again I left the room and didn't look at it again until it was done. Everything worked. I have a much sloppier fit with some things than I expected. I'm going to have to take some measurements and see why that is. Maybe double check my CAM file. The alignment pins may make the assembly useable, but...

    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com


  18. #38
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    591
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: Little Things

    A manual height gauge is almost certainly going to be more exact than an electronic tool setter, at least as long as that tool setter uses mechanical switches.
    Setters that use an insulated steel plate and detects grounded tool tips may be as accurate as a gauge, though. I don't know if you can get them for the Tormach?
    Also, you don't strictly need the correct spindle-to-tool-tip height, as long as all tools are relative to some particular reference, and you also use that reference for setting Z zero for your job.
    But a gauge is super easy to use, and very accurate. Some things you can't improve much :-)



  19. #39
    Member popspipes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    1777
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: Little Things

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob La Londe View Post
    Well, I ran the second half of the today. (Two part hinged casting mold) Almost unsupervised. Only one problem and it was self induced. I advanced the feed rate slider and the machine shut down cold. Interesting. Under Mach if you advance the feed rate beyond what the machine will do it just doesn't go any faster than its max set speed. With PP it shut down the job and rewound to line one. How annoying. After I got it going again I left the room and didn't look at it again until it was done. Everything worked. I have a much sloppier fit with some things than I expected. I'm going to have to take some measurements and see why that is. Maybe double check my CAM file. The alignment pins may make the assembly useable, but...
    For what its worth, I have run the sliders at max and all points in between and never had the program shut down or stop.

    I did hit a key eroniously trying to hit the space bar and it poped up a message, during that time the space bar would not stop the program ,I would think thats a bit of a safety issue??

    mike sr


  20. #40
    Member mountaindew's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    earth
    Posts
    2151
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: Little Things

    Quote Originally Posted by jwatte View Post
    A manual height gauge is almost certainly going to be more exact than an electronic tool setter, at least as long as that tool setter uses mechanical switches.
    Setters that use an insulated steel plate and detects grounded tool tips may be as accurate as a gauge, though. I don't know if you can get them for the Tormach?
    Also, you don't strictly need the correct spindle-to-tool-tip height, as long as all tools are relative to some particular reference, and you also use that reference for setting Z zero for your job.
    But a gauge is super easy to use, and very accurate. Some things you can't improve much :-)
    One reason I never purchased one is I get good results with height gauge and manual tool height entry. I do notice if I check or remeasure tools before a run I find small differences due to temperature or whatever . Having this done on the machine at run time with a tool setter seams like it would mitigate this a little. Tormachs tool setter is $995.00. I would expect it to work as good or better then the 300.00 height gauge system. Or I Could be chasing my tail also . Easy to do at that scale.



Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  


About CNCzone.com

    We are the largest and most active discussion forum for manufacturing industry. The site is 100% free to join and use, so join today!

Follow us on


Our Brands

Little Things

Little Things