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  1. #41
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    Default Re: 2” facemill recomendations

    Well today I got to play around with the new MariTool 45 deg shell mill (3.15" OD) and it is really nice! It took about 10 iterations to find a good recipe for what I am trying to do. As a reminder, I have (x2) 10" x 3" pieces of bar stock 6061 mounted on a pallet and I need to deck off 0.110" and achieve a mirror finish. This is a production item that runs all day every day so reliability and speed is everything. I started out with a 0.100" DOC and 3" WOC at 5100 rpm and 20 ipm and the machine was bogging down hard so I reduced immediately to 10 ipm. I quickly realized that this tool needs to be run in the max torque band (2500-3000 rpm) or else you are leaving a lot of material removal on the table. I found that at 3000 rpm I had the least amount of bogging and I was able to push the tool to about 15 ipm (4.5 in^3/min) but I really didn't like this recipe and it seemed like the machine was working very hard just to keep up. I figured that I would get a more reliable and efficient cut by reducing the WOC so I made quite a few iterations and landed on a pretty solid roughing recipe that I am happy with.

    For roughing I like a 0.100" DOC and 0.7" WOC running 3000 rpm and 60 ipm (4.2 in^3/min). I am not pushing the machine to the absolute limit with this recipe. In fact, as time goes on and I am more comfortable with the tool I will probably ramp things up a bit. Based on my tests I think an aggressive recipe would be something like 0.100" DOC, 0.8" WOC at 3000 rpm and 70 ipm (5.6 in^3/min). This is just about the same material removal rate that the superfly and the shear hog boast but I would rather run this tool for decking down a surface. The tool is balanced and cuts very aggressively without any signs of chatter. The chips are more compact than what I had with the superfly and if I push it too hard the machine bogs down but the cutter is not going to explode!

    For finishing I liked a 0.005" DOC and full 3" WOC at 3000 rpm and 60 ipm. It is important that I have minimal tool marks on my parts and I was able to achieve a BETTER finish and a flatter part with this shell mill than I was with the superfly! I did not expect the surface finish to be as good as it was. In fact, I would go so far as to say it would be hard to improve the finish.

    After only 1 day with this tool I feel that I am ready to retire the superfly. Although I got a lot of good use out of the superfly, it is a punishing and unbalanced tool that can do some costly damage if it fails. I do have one concern about the MariTool shell mill and that is the weight. This is a VERY heavy setup and I plan on storing it in the ATC. I am concerned that the nylon screws are going to stretch under this weight and become loose. Only time will tell...but I will say if the Tormach drops this tool or punches it out of the ATC you will definitely do some damage to the surfaces below. I think there is an opportunity to make a Tormach friendly face mill that can cut a 3" diameter. I will say that I wouldn't try running a tool that is any larger than this on a Tormach machine. That is an awfully large diameter and a huge amount of torque is put on the spindle components and at the end of the day we are relying on an R8 collet not a large taper spindle that this tool was designed for.

    Tomorrow I receive the Tormach collar so I can use the ATC. I will put together a quick video/pics to show the final production run cuts.



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    Default Re: 2” facemill recomendations

    You might try some other approaches.
    Full 3" WOC, .05 DOC, 2500 RPM 40 IPM or only use 3 inserts and run 3" WOC, .100 DOC, 2500 RPM, 20 IPM
    Both run about the same MMR as you were at with the superfly.



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    Default Re: 2” facemill recomendations

    Quote Originally Posted by IMT View Post
    You might try some other approaches.
    Full 3" WOC, .05 DOC, 2500 RPM 40 IPM or only use 3 inserts and run 3" WOC, .100 DOC, 2500 RPM, 20 IPM
    Both run about the same MMR as you were at with the superfly.
    I will definitely give that 0.050" DOC 3" WOC a try but I already ran the other recipe and I was not able to hold 20 ipm because the spindle bogged down on me. I could only get about 15 ipm.

    Edit: Sorry I see that you suggested removing half of the inserts, this is very interesting! Thanks!



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    Default Re: 2” facemill recomendations

    Which inserts are you running?



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    Default Re: 2” facemill recomendations

    Quote Originally Posted by sidetrak06 View Post
    I will definitely give that 0.050" DOC 3" WOC a try but I already ran the other recipe and I was not able to hold 20 ipm because the spindle bogged down on me. I could only get about 15 ipm.

    Edit: Sorry I see that you suggested removing half of the inserts, this is very interesting! Thanks!
    It may work where the previous recipe didn't because:
    1) I think there is more torque at 2500RPM than 3000. Haven't quantified that, just my observation over the years.
    2) Fewer cutting edges requires less torque even at the same material removal rate. At 3000rpm, 15ipm and 6 flutes the chip load was only .00083. At that low of a chip load the cut efficiency is poor, the amount of torque required to push the edge through the material compared to the amount of material removed. These inserts work best with fairly aggressive chip loads (with the superfly you were running .0067ipt). Using 3 flutes, 2500rpm and 20ipm the chipload is .0027ipt, better but not where the insert works best. But might be a good compromise between MMR and smoothness of the cut.



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    Default Re: 2” facemill recomendations

    Quote Originally Posted by joshetect View Post
    Which inserts are you running?
    I am using the polished carbide inserts for aluminum:
    https://www.tormach.com/store/index....show&ref=32653



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    Default Re: 2” facemill recomendations

    Well today got away from me and I didn't get a chance to do any more testing. Should be able to get something tomorrow!



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    Default Re: 2” facemill recomendations

    Quote Originally Posted by sidetrak06 View Post
    I am using the polished carbide inserts for aluminum:
    https://www.tormach.com/store/index....show&ref=32653
    Thats what I went with too. I did see some on ebay. for $40 for 10, but they were coming from china. went with the them from tormach though since i was ordering from there anyway and they are cheaper for the 10 than getting them from maritool.

    Also picked up a second collar, hadnt even thought about it before but the haimer I got has a 3/4" stub on it, been using it in a er32 holder this whole time, should be able to pick some extra Z now

    I got the 2.5" face mill from maritool, should be here tomorrow. Probably wont see the inserts from tormach til next week.



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    How are you holding your aluminum flat bar? Are you clamping it in a vice or using some kind of miteebite / talon clamps?
    I have found that how well the part is supported is a big factor in surface finish quality, especially for thinner (1/4” & less) stock.



    Quote Originally Posted by sidetrak06 View Post
    Well today got away from me and I didn't get a chance to do any more testing. Should be able to get something tomorrow!




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    Default Re: 2” facemill recomendations

    Speaking of eBay, any experience/thoughts on some of the very cheap aluminum face mills (for example https://www.ebay.ca/itm/1P-New-4F-Fa...292168966953)?

    Perhaps I've just been lucky but the cheap SEHT inserts that I purchased on eBay from Korea have worked quite well in my SuperFly.



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    Default Re: 2” facemill recomendations

    Quote Originally Posted by CadRhino View Post
    How are you holding your aluminum flat bar? Are you clamping it in a vice or using some kind of miteebite / talon clamps?
    I have found that how well the part is supported is a big factor in surface finish quality, especially for thinner (1/4” & less) stock.

    I made a custom pallet that uses miteebite clamps. My stock starts at 3/4" but my final part is 5/8" thick. I saw the exact same finish when I was testing in a vise so I am confident in my workholding being very rigid. The finish I was getting with the superfly was very good but this MariTool shell mill has improved the finish noticeably.



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    Default Re: 2” facemill recomendations

    I get the best finish with the superfly with a finish pass of .003. Any more and I can see the effects of it deflecting. The maritool setup looks very interesting.



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    Thanks
    Are you using the Tallon grips or different miteebite?
    Regarding atc, can you just do all the facemillling then take the fm out to use atc?
    I do all of my fm first so that would work for me.



    QUOTE=sidetrak06;2152036]I made a custom pallet that uses miteebite clamps. My stock starts at 3/4" but my final part is 5/8" thick. I saw the exact same finish when I was testing in a vise so I am confident in my workholding being very rigid. The finish I was getting with the superfly was very good but this MariTool shell mill has improved the finish noticeably.[/QUOTE]



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    Default Re: 2” facemill recomendations

    Well IMT made some great suggestions and I was able to achieve 6.6 in^3/min MRR! I removed 3 of the inserts, ran a roughing pass full 3" WOC at 0.055" DOC, 2500 rpm and 40 ipm. The finishing pass was 3" WOC at 0.005" DOC, 2500 rpm and 20 ipm. The cuts were quite, smooth, had great surface finish and it is quite fast! I just performed this test in the vise and took a few pics and a video. Soon I am going to run a pallet and see how the production parts come out! I love the forums, thanks for all of the input.

    https://photos.app.goo.gl/TAw0yAueLSA5ePHt1

    Edit: I uploaded some production pics and videos in there as well!

    Last edited by sidetrak06; 02-15-2018 at 05:16 PM.


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    Thanks for posting the photos.
    Very professional setup.
    What kind of clamps are you using? Do the cosmos hold the parts or is there a vacuum that holds those parts down?
    If a vacuum, are those clamps just for alignment purposes?
    Thanks!
    Nathan


    Quote Originally Posted by sidetrak06 View Post
    Well IMT made some great suggestions and I was able to achieve 6.6 in^3/min MRR! I removed 3 of the inserts, ran a roughing pass full 3" WOC at 0.055" DOC, 2500 rpm and 40 ipm. The finishing pass was 3" WOC at 0.005" DOC, 2500 rpm and 20 ipm. The cuts were quite, smooth, had great surface finish and it is quite fast! I just performed this test in the vise and took a few pics and a video. Soon I am going to run a pallet and see how the production parts come out! I love the forums, thanks for all of the input.

    https://photos.app.goo.gl/TAw0yAueLSA5ePHt1

    Edit: I uploaded some production pics and videos in there as well!




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    Default Re: 2” facemill recomendations

    Good to see it's working well. Thanks for posting the pics and video.



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    Default Re: 2” facemill recomendations

    Quote Originally Posted by CadRhino View Post
    Thanks for posting the photos.
    Very professional setup.
    What kind of clamps are you using? Do the cosmos hold the parts or is there a vacuum that holds those parts down?
    If a vacuum, are those clamps just for alignment purposes?
    Thanks!
    Nathan
    Nathan, I have Mitee Bite locating rails with 0.100" height above the part surface on two sides of each piece of stock. This way I am able to machine the entire perimeter of the part on the first operation. I use a Te-Co 53100 spring stop to push the stock in the x-direction against the left locating rail. Two Mitee Bite 26060 clamps hold each stock piece in place and simultaneously push them in the y-direction against the center locating rail. I machined multiple clamp pockets so that I can also hold (x2) 10" x 2" pieces, (x2) 7" x 2.5" pieces, or (x4) 4" x 2.5" pieces. All of the clamps, spring stops and locating rails thread into steel threaded inserts that are set into the aluminum pallet. This way I can torque these down and not worry about thread deformation or premature wear.



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    Thank you for the details of how you set up your pallet. I was a little confused when I saw what looked like a vacuum hose hooking up to your pallet.
    It sounds like you basically squeeze the part mith mite bite cam clamps. I will look those clamps up.
    FYI, I just received my 3 1/4” maritool fm. DAM that thing is big and heavy. I won’t be using it in my ATC.
    I will just run my facing options separate.


    QUOTE=sidetrak06;2152484]Nathan, I have Mitee Bite locating rails with 0.100" height above the part surface on two sides of each piece of stock. This way I am able to machine the entire perimeter of the part on the first operation. I use a Te-Co 53100 spring stop to push the stock in the x-direction against the left locating rail. Two Mitee Bite 26060 clamps hold each stock piece in place and simultaneously push them in the y-direction against the center locating rail. I machined multiple clamp pockets so that I can also hold (x2) 10" x 2" pieces, (x2) 7" x 2.5" pieces, or (x4) 4" x 2.5" pieces. All of the clamps, spring stops and locating rails thread into steel threaded inserts that are set into the aluminum pallet. This way I can torque these down and not worry about thread deformation or premature wear.[/QUOTE]



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    Default Re: 2” facemill recomendations

    Got mine yesterday too. inserts came today, but it looks like the TTS collars are on backorder

    I really liked how maritool included the screwdriver and bit, as well as how the receipt came in the envelope with the business card. Nice touches, will have to take note of that.

    CadRhino, LOVE the miteebite stuff!!! Making fixtures is very fun for me, and their products are perfect



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    Default Re: 2” facemill recomendations

    Quote Originally Posted by joshetect View Post
    Got mine yesterday too. inserts came today, but it looks like the TTS collars are on backorder

    I really liked how maritool included the screwdriver and bit, as well as how the receipt came in the envelope with the business card. Nice touches, will have to take note of that.

    CadRhino, LOVE the miteebite stuff!!! Making fixtures is very fun for me, and their products are perfect
    Speaking of backorder you have to get on the list sometimes for most reduced shank long reach tooling from Maritool also very popular I guess. I finished the last project I had before it arrived by other methods, but now I have the right tool for the right job.



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