Tormach 2200 Professional CNC - your dream list

[CadRhino]

Let’s say the next Tormach mill is going big and will be more of an entry level ‘professional’ Machine.
What would be on your wish list?
Here is my first stab;
- linear ways
- servo motors
- 10(?) HP
- greater y travel
- around $20k or so depending on features
- refined 15-tool ATC
-integrated probe
- option for through the spindle coolant
- dead nuts reliability and accuracy to .0002

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[IMT]

A few years ago when they started hinting about something new coming out I was hoping it would be a bigger machine (my first thought on name was also 2200). I was disappointed to when it ended up being the 440.
For a 2200 my wishlist would be:
- 30x16 XY travel
- More reliable ATC
- Optional Servo motors - >500in/min rapids, > 250in/min cutting
- Optional 10K rpm 10hp BT30 spindle that works with the ATC

I think this would fit nicely in the gap between a $19K 1100 (w/ enclosure and ATC) and a $32K TM-1P.

[CadRhino]

Good adds



QUOTE=IMT;2145520]A few years ago when they started hinting about something new coming out I was hoping it would be a bigger machine (my first thought on name was also 2200). I was disappointed to when it ended up being the 440.
For a 2200 my wishlist would be:
- 30x16 XY travel
- More reliable ATC
- Optional Servo motors - >500in/min rapids, > 250in/min cutting
- Optional 10K rpm 10hp BT30 spindle that works with the ATC[/QUOTE]

[jeffrey001]

10 HP requires 3 phases.

Jeff

[IMT]

10 HP requires 3 phases.

Jeff

Rotary phase converter. No problem at 10 hp.
Maybe do a 7HP option that runs on single phase.

[jeffrey001]

Rotary phase converter. No problem at 10 hp.
Maybe do a 7HP option that runs on single phase.

Possible, I have a HAAS 7HP running on single phase, but not sure if it is really 7HP, maybe it's true with 3 phases.

Jeff

[mountaindew]

A machine manufactured with those tolerances, and power, is going to be expensive, now way around it. As for design, RD suggested a horizontal format mill with a vertical tomb stone a while back that sounded useful. All the swarf falls down and the user could load material on one side while machine mills on other side.
Anyway when the x,y,z axis of the average 10 hp machine can ninja speed rapid move my 3k lb JEEP thru the wall it sets next to without stalling sounds very cool and expensive.
That said the one thing I dislike about my 1100 mill the most is way oil mess.

[SCzEngrgGroup]

A machine like you suggest would have Tormach competing head-to-head with the "big boys", like Haas. They'd never survive in that market - they don't have the support infrastructure that is REQUIRED to break into that market. If they built that infrastructure, they'd have to charge as much as Haas does. What would be their "value add" that would make them a viable competitor against the companies that have been in that market for decades? One of the keys to a successful business is understanding who your customer is, and what you can, and cannot, do.

Regards,
Ray L.

[C*H*U*D]

I don't care what Tormach makes next as long as they get ER11 TTS holders done.

[jeffrey001]

I don't care what Tormach makes next as long as they get ER11 TTS holders done.

Why not buy one of these and machine a holder to fit its diameter.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/5mm-ER11A-E....c100009.m1982

Jeff

[kstrauss]

Why not buy one of these and machine a holder to fit its diameter.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/5mm-ER11A-E....c100009.m1982

Jeff

The comment that: "It is manual measurement, there may be 1-3mm error." doesn't conjure good thoughts of TIR!

I bought two of these (https://www.ebay.com/itm/C3-4-ER11A-...s/280785842367) but from a different supplier. One isn't bad but the threads on the other were so undersized that the collet nut would fall off. Yes, I got a refund.

[CadRhino]

I disagree, Ray. I feel that haas has not focused enough on ‘entry-level’ professional machines. I do not think Tormach should follow Haas’ model but use their current model and take it one notch up. With a Haas you got to call the service tech to replace the spindle. With a Tormach you order one and do it yourself.
I do think there is a niche & opportunity there.
Tormach is more than just machines, it is an approach to a machining.

The challenge is to find the sweet spot of price vs options.

-Nathan





QUOTE=SCzEngrgGroup;2145554]A machine like you suggest would have Tormach competing head-to-head with the "big boys", like Haas. They'd never survive in that market - they don't have the support infrastructure that is REQUIRED to break into that market. If they built that infrastructure, they'd have to charge as much as Haas does. What would be their "value add" that would make them a viable competitor against the companies that have been in that market for decades? One of the keys to a successful business is understanding who your customer is, and what you can, and cannot, do.

Regards,
Ray L.[/QUOTE]

[footpetaljones]

A machine manufactured with those tolerances, and power, is going to be expensive, now way around it. As for design, RD suggested a horizontal format mill with a vertical tomb stone a while back that sounded useful. All the swarf falls down and the user could load material on one side while machine mills on other side.

That would require a pallet changer. Pallet changers are expensive.

[jgraves]

I think there is a niche market for a machine more capable than an 1100 with a Tormach business / support model. Although they are supported differently, Haas and Tormach are probably the 2 best supported brands in North America. I have been unable to find a CNC mill the sits between the Tormach 1100 and a Haas TM or MM series that has anywhere near the support or user base.

While the base price for the Haas machines aren't that bad, what is optional and the cost for those options are absurd. My guess is Haas makes very little money on the base configurations of their smaller machines due to the cost of the control and the cost of their infrastructure so they have to make up for it with the (mostly software) options. I expect Tormach could sell a mill similar to a well optioned TM-1P with PathPilot for around the base cost of a Haas TM-1P (sub $35k) due to the much less expensive controller and infrastructure. Maybe more interesting, I don't think Haas would notice any difference in sales of there small machines as even if Tormach OEM'd the hardware to Haas, the control and support infrastructure would keep them in largely separate markets.

As it is right now, I'm torn between the 1100 and the TM-2P (at nearly 3x the cost).

[Advil]

I don't care what Tormach makes next as long as they get ER11 TTS holders done.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/wholesales-...4AAOSwh2xYBZKz

I notice that in addition to the usual 10 pack of ER20 the description also specifically says, "We also offer ATC ER11 ER16 ER20 ER32 ER40 Version and Custom tools"

Maybe they'll do a run if you contact them? I might be interested myself. Want to split a 10 pack?

EDIT - Never mind. The nut falls off?!?! I have a 10 pack of their ER20 and they work great. What the heck.

[kstrauss]

I'd also be happy to split 10 ER11 if their runout were decent.

Oops! CNCMACHINETOOL was the source of the ER11 x 3/4 that the nut falls off of that I mentioned earlier!

[Steve Seebold]

A machine like you suggest would have Tormach competing head-to-head with the "big boys", like Haas. They'd never survive in that market - they don't have the support infrastructure that is REQUIRED to break into that market. If they built that infrastructure, they'd have to charge as much as Haas does. What would be their "value add" that would make them a viable competitor against the companies that have been in that market for decades? One of the keys to a successful business is understanding who your customer is, and what you can, and cannot, do.

Regards,
Ray L.

Ray’s right. I had a Haas TM-1 when I had my shop and as much as I hate to say it, my Haas was a WAY better machine than my Tormach.

[mountaindew]

That would require a pallet changer. Pallet changers are expensive.

A vertical tomb stone that rotates 180 degrees so one side is in position for the user to clamp material onto while the other side is running operations could be used either way. I have seen tomb stones with multiple vise type fixtures mounted in series on 2 sides or more. Pallets would work also but I was thinking pallet systems were for flat format mills and vertical tomb stone fixtures were different. and more for a horizontal format z tool engagement.
What made me think of that, was the other day I was watching a utube video and the operator of the horizontal mill was riding up and down next to the tool in an enclosed elevator The bed was about 12 ft dia fixture plate. The mill head was about 8ft sq and 20 ft tall with an enclosed elevator for the operator to observe the tool.

[AUSTINMACHINING]

Tormach is already in their market. A machine that will fit in most garages and run on single phase power. Otherwise, there are many used, true VMC machines for 15-20K that could turn a Tormach into chips quickly. Not to knock the "garage machines", I have one that runs daily, but I don't see how they could compete in a market that already exists without costing $$$. Brother, Hurco, Fanuc,Sharp,Doosan etc. have machines ~ 6000lb range BT30 etc. that are blazing fast. Holding .0002" accuracy with good geometric tolerances would require materials that would push them into the price range as these other industrial grade machines.

[jeffrey001]

A vertical tomb stone that rotates 180 degrees so one side is in position for the user to clamp material onto while the other side is running operations could be used either way. I have seen tomb stones with multiple vise type fixtures mounted in series on 2 sides or more. Pallets would work also but I was thinking pallet systems were for flat format mills and vertical tomb stone fixtures were different. and more for a horizontal format z tool engagement.
What made me think of that, was the other day I was watching a utube video and the operator of the horizontal mill was riding up and down next to the tool in an enclosed elevator The bed was about 12 ft dia fixture plate. The mill head was about 8ft sq and 20 ft tall with an enclosed elevator for the operator to observe the tool.

This is a really big safety issue
Jeff