Tormach 1100 vs. Haas VF3

[bhurts]

Don't forget that the has also has rapid feedrate override. It can be set at 5,25,50, and 100% with the press of a button. 5% would put you at 50ipm. That may not prevent a crash but it gives you a chance to stop things before they become catastrophic. If your paying attention of course.

Ben

[CNC-Dude]

If I read this thread correctly, this machine will go into a Maker Space environment, am I correct? Here in the Dallas Maker Space (DMS) we have a HAAS and it takes a great deal of effort for people to learn it. The idea is that users must have been trained, which makes sense because not only you want to avoid accidents on individuals, you also want to ensure the machine is not misused.

The problem is that even after 4 years of tinkering with CNC, I still make mistakes. Why? Well, because I do this on the weekends and not even on every weekend. If this was my 8 hour job Monday to Friday, operating these machines would be like using my hands. Crashing would be a thing of the past.

It is my impression that Maker Spaces will be populated by individuals who will be also using the machines on the occasional basis. As a result, the probability of a crash is considerably higher.

I would go with the Tormach. As was pointed out, this machine is not as safe as the production ones, though, so I would spend some considerable amount of training telling users that the machine won't care if there is a hand (or any other body part) in the way!

[mountaindew]

That's a tough call. The whole thing sounds like a bad idea to me.

Can I ask for more detail? How closely would the users be supervised? How would a person buy time on a machine? (hourly, daily, unlimited with a subscription, etc.)

If I HAD to make a choice of what machine I'd rather have people "play with" without supervision (or very little supervision), I would choose the Haas. If I remember correctly, Haases can be set up so the spindle will not run while the door is open. That would be the deciding factor for me; a machine which would allow someone to literally stick their hand into a running spindle (through stupidity, ignorance, brazenness, carelessness, or anything else) is a machine I would not allow a novice to use. There's no way in hell I'd let someone run my Novakon unless I was either watching closely or was certain that they knew what they were doing. I also wouldn't let anyone use my Brother, but at least if I ever did, I wouldn't be as worried about having to clean up blood spatter. In this country, it's one thing to hurt yourself on your own machine, it's another thing when someone else gets hurt on YOUR machine. Think a Haas costs a lot to fix, think about what it's going to cost when someone needs their hand sewn back together (you might be paying their doctor AND their lawyer).

Maybe I'm missing the point entirely here... Maybe I'm a wet blanket. I wouldn't lend a stranger my car, my gun, or my CNC machine.

This is very true, and something I tend to forget or ignore!
Heck I remove all my warning labels and don't always follow directions as that is just another opinion on how to do it and not always my opinion.
All fun aside high end commercial machines not only move fast they also move with force. last I checked most move with well over 2000 lbs of force at the rates mentioned above and an enclosure would have to be a part of the machine or your going to feel the pinch at some point.
md


edit:
to be honest If I had access to such machines like a maker space and or without being a registered college student "cost 2-5k per year min" I might not have purchased a mill. I would have focused on cad/cam side and bring my code to the machine to run. under supervision of course

[tmarks11]

So what I am reading here is that the HAAS is preferable as a training tool (at $65k) vs the Tormach ($9k + $3k enclosure) for two reasons:

1. The HAAS enclosure has a micro-switch to shut down the machine
2. The HAAS FEED HOLD actually stops the machine at the next feed command (vs Tormach that stops the machine after the buffer of commands that have already been sent to the machine is executed).

My solution:
1. Buy the Tormach enclosure and mount a $5 micro-switch on the door, wired in-line with the micro-switch for the spindle door.
2. Mount plenty of remote e-stops. Yes, it sucks to use the e-stop, because you lose your reference, and have to eraser the machine and the part (there is 3 minutes gone), but it is better than sinking a end-mill in the table. Yes, feed hold is more convenient than e-stop. But is it $53k better when this is just a teaching/training tool, not a production shop?

I am rather surprised that Tormach doesn't have a micro-switch on the enclosure door already (after all they sell this as an "educational package"). I would suggest calling and talking to them about this feature, if that would be on of the things that would prevent you from buying the Tormach for this application.

...he feed hold function on Mach3 is useless.

Tormach is releasing a new PCNC linuxcnc software edition next week. It would be awesome if it saved this problem as well.

[cordvision]

I wouldn't want to have a micro switch on the tormach enclosure door. On a tormach it is perfectly save and not unusual to blow away chips manually, add cutting oil etc while milling. Just like you would on a manual mill...


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[CadRhino]

My tormach with atc PDB 4th axis vise and passive probe and sprutcam was 27k delivered. I have probably put another 5k into tooling and fixtures.
If you haven't already done so, Don't underestimate extra costs to really use the machine.
I use to own a Cessna 172. I almost bought a beach craft which retails for 4x what the 172 sold for. It also went that every similar part for the Beechcraft sold for 4x what the Cessna parts cost. I am personally Glad I started out with the Cessna.

Good luck with your decision

Nathan

[underthetire]

I still don't understand why its tormach vs VF3, a tool room mill would be much cheaper, slower, and still be more accurate. Either way, if this machine is going to a US school or public event, its required by OSHA and Ansi to have a locking interlocked enclosure that is not defeat able if it has a tool changer. If not, it is considered a hobby machine and is not to be used by students or employees, like it or not, that's the code. Break this code and someone gets hurt, its going to get ugly. Europe has similar standards.

[cordvision]

Not saying that you are wrong, but Tormach markets specifically towards schools an Universities, and you can find them in Universities all over the country. It's just hard for me to believe that there would be a legal issue...


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[mountaindew]

I still don't understand why its tormach vs VF3, a tool room mill would be much cheaper, slower, and still be more accurate. Either way, if this machine is going to a US school or public event, its required by OSHA and Ansi to have a locking interlocked enclosure that is not defeat able if it has a tool changer. If not, it is considered a hobby machine and is not to be used by students or employees, like it or not, that's the code. Break this code and someone gets hurt, its going to get ugly. Europe has similar standards.

I have attend enough msha, osha and a host of other safety agencies in local, state and federal level and I can say I have never one time read there is language that would change something from hobby to commercial NONE.
Like saying a shovel is hobby and a excavator is commercial. Im not saying there is not language for enclosures and Interlocks and god only knows what else to meet a given agency and setting safety requirement. Just Nothing that says hobby or commercial and different safety for one or the other.
I would like a cited source on this for informative reading
md

[CNC-Dude]

I think the trick here is that on Maker Spaces they make you sign a waver which pretty much certifies you are on your own and you can't sue them if you happen to think you came from Krypton and you are faster than a speeding mill or harder than HSS.

Not certain how they manage this in schools/universities, but I imagine every shop has the ultimate insurance which takes care of any casualty, in the event they happen.

I mean, let's face it! The first thing you have to BURN into your brain before you even attempt to get close to any of these machines is that they will go through flesh at way faster rates than they will go through any other material they are designed to handle. Anybody not BURNING this into their brains, is bound to get hurt and they deserve to be hand-slapped if they come up with something like "WHAT HAPPENED HERE??? I didn't think that fly cutter could chop my finger right off!"

This applies to either Tormach or HAAS. Heck, this applies to anything past, and including, a kitchen knife!

I don't think safety should be the deciding factor between a Tormach or a HAAS. If anybody is going to walk into a shop assuming the machines are watching their back and they don't need to worry about this aspect of machining, the best thing we can do with these folks is kick their butts past Saturn. Out of this shop, dude! Watch a You Tube video if you want to see how it works!

[CadRhino]

There are tons of schools that have Tormachs for learning - look at RISD's industrial design school.

I still don't understand why its tormach vs VF3, a tool room mill would be much cheaper, slower, and still be more accurate. Either way, if this machine is going to a US school or public event, its required by OSHA and Ansi to have a locking interlocked enclosure that is not defeat able if it has a tool changer. If not, it is considered a hobby machine and is not to be used by students or employees, like it or not, that's the code. Break this code and someone gets hurt, its going to get ugly. Europe has similar standards.

[underthetire]

As long as they don't have automatic tool changers its fine. If they do, they must be guarded and interlocked. Just because schools bought them, doesn't mean they know the codes associated with regards to interlocks, pretty straight forward in both OSHA witch refers to ASNSI Z71 I believe. They will continue this way until they get caught.
This is the reason you can't even buy a small Haas TM without enclosure now.

[Steelmesh]

That's a tough call. The whole thing sounds like a bad idea to me.

Can I ask for more detail? How closely would the users be supervised? How would a person buy time on a machine? (hourly, daily, unlimited with a subscription, etc.)

If I HAD to make a choice of what machine I'd rather have people "play with" without supervision (or very little supervision), I would choose the Haas. If I remember correctly, Haases can be set up so the spindle will not run while the door is open. That would be the deciding factor for me; a machine which would allow someone to literally stick their hand into a running spindle (through stupidity, ignorance, brazenness, carelessness, or anything else) is a machine I would not allow a novice to use. There's no way in hell I'd let someone run my Novakon unless I was either watching closely or was certain that they knew what they were doing. I also wouldn't let anyone use my Brother, but at least if I ever did, I wouldn't be as worried about having to clean up blood spatter. In this country, it's one thing to hurt yourself on your own machine, it's another thing when someone else gets hurt on YOUR machine. Think a Haas costs a lot to fix, think about what it's going to cost when someone needs their hand sewn back together (you might be paying their doctor AND their lawyer).

Maybe I'm missing the point entirely here... Maybe I'm a wet blanket. I wouldn't lend a stranger my car, my gun, or my CNC machine.

The users would probably have very limited to no supervision. This is a community run maker space, no employees. People "buy" time by being either a member paying dues or even you can be a guest with a sponsoring member present while you are there; other then that we ask for donations to cover costs of machine wear and consumables. All of the equipment can be accessed by members with a short overview of how to properly use the equipment. There is only one piece of processing equipment (owned by the Maker Space) that is not accessible by members on the floor, you can guess what that is.

[sansbury]

The users would probably have very limited to no supervision. This is a community run maker space, no employees. People "buy" time by being either a member paying dues or even you can be a guest with a sponsoring member present while you are there; other then that we ask for donations to cover costs of machine wear and consumables. All of the equipment can be accessed by members with a short overview of how to properly use the equipment. There is only one piece of processing equipment (owned by the Maker Space) that is not accessible by members on the floor, you can guess what that is.

Short version, I think the odds of this working out well are poor with the Tormach, and zero with a Haas or other real VMC.

IF you had a really good training curriculum, I'm thinking ~20 hours, where people had access to a very specific suite of CAD/CAM software and got training on the control, common fixturing/setup approaches, etc., you could maybe make this work well for random users starting from scratch who aren't complete buffoons. You need to minimize the number of variables new users will have to deal with. Otherwise, I think you will see two things: the mill and tooling will get beat to $#@! really fast, and your attrition rate will be high as people realize this is a lot harder than making something with a 3D printer. The most important thing a long training program will do is discourage the impulsive buffoons from paying $50 for time, slapping a hunk of hardened steel into the vise, and G0-ing $200 of endmill, collet, and holder straight into it.

If you don't have a laser cutter, I'd get one of those first. That would be a draw for members and easier for people to use, since there's no fixturing or workholding to worry about, and the CAM part is a lot simpler.

[akmetal]

How do you crash your tool if the tool path looks good in fusion 360 and you set your zero point?

[kstrauss]

I've never made a mistake (!!!) but a few suggestions based on "intuition": inserting wrong tool, mis-measuring tool length, mis-placed clamps, TTS pullout, mis-match between stock size and CAM, ...

[WOTDesigns]

That's like asking how people can have car accidents when there are traffic laws... If you've ever driven you'd understand. People inherently make mistakes. Dumb people make more. 49.99% of people are technically below average intelligence. Even geniuses make mistakes. Learning something complicated makes mistakes even more likely. Leaning it on a machine you didn't pay for... (10x multiplier)

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[mountaindew]

How do you crash your tool if the tool path looks good in fusion 360 and you set your zero point?

I could write a book on the number of possible mistakes or problems

[Steve Seebold]

As the former owner of a Haas and a FADAL, and the current owner off a Tormach PCNC 1100, I can tell you I can do ANYTHING on my Tormach that I could do on either of those machines, it just takes longer on the Tormach.

AND, MY TORMACH DIDN'T COST $75,000.00

I have had my Tormach for about 5 1/2 years, and I probably have close to 5,000 spindle hours on it. I'm still running Mach III and I don't have the ATC.

The ATC wasn't available when I bought my machine. So I guess you could say I have 2 tool changers on my machine. One at the end of each arm.

I don't cut much steel on my machine, but I do cut a lot of aerospace alloys like 6AL4V titanium and 718 Inconel.

I program my machine with GibbsCam which I had when I owned a real CNC machine shop. When I sold the shop due to major health issues, the new owner wanted to use MasterCam.

[akmetal]

Hello Steve,

Thank you so much for your insight. Less than 10k for a full on metal milling CNC is awesome. Have you ever done sheet metal with it, it looks like it would be hard to secure sheet metal to the surface. Will the tormach work with fusion 360?

Oh is the software onboard the tormach that coverts the gcode to the machine internet based or is it hard programed so that the machine can work totally offline?

So another question, is it worth it to buy a CNC lathe for cutting ultra fine threads or can the tormach do them just fine (these would be NPT threads and also straight threads but not in high volumes). BUT the threads would be going on expensive materials and I would not want a code slip up to cost me $100 for PEEK or other expensive metals. I have seen them put threads on youtube with the tormach so maybe I am just being paranoid.

How is the tormach 440? Do you know if the tormach can be upgraded to AC brushless servos?

If I were to build a CNC machine do the AC brushless servos require capacitor impedance matching due to the AC nature of the power? Can the AC brushless servo motors be connected to a X, Y, Z control module just like a stepper motor? Seems the key to the CNC machine is the stepper/servo motors and the controller ... the rest is just tig welding a bunch of stainless steel or iron.

As the former owner of a Haas and a FADAL, and the current owner off a Tormach PCNC 1100, I can tell you I can do ANYTHING on my Tormach that I could do on either of those machines, it just takes longer on the Tormach.

AND, MY TORMACH DIDN'T COST $75,000.00

I have had my Tormach for about 5 1/2 years, and I probably have close to 5,000 spindle hours on it. I'm still running Mach III and I don't have the ATC.

The ATC wasn't available when I bought my machine. So I guess you could say I have 2 tool changers on my machine. One at the end of each arm.

I don't cut much steel on my machine, but I do cut a lot of aerospace alloys like 6AL4V titanium and 718 Inconel.

I program my machine with GibbsCam which I had when I owned a real CNC machine shop. When I sold the shop due to major health issues, the new owner wanted to use MasterCam.