Vista CNC pendant and PP

[TurboStep]

your rock! Looking forward to it!

Please note I did mention the "bad news'!
Step

[TurboStep]

Well, on the "Physical Feed Rate Override knob for PCNC 1100" thread Tim asked about the Jog controls, so here it is:



As I mentioned in the other thread, I made a long, very boring video (5 months ago) and never got around to finishing it off. I'll explain why:
This exercise started from another thread (which I can't find) where errors were reported which sounded to me like hal conflicts. Well having sorted that out I decided to buy a Vista P2-S just to see how far I could get. I reported some issues with the Vista software to Lee and he released a new version (V1.2). As you can see from the videos (and there are more) most of the functions are now working, but, and this a big BUT there are a number of reasons why I'm not perusing this project any further.

1) I admit the first point is very subjective - I don't actually like the Pendant! I fully understand that I'm in the minority here but I prefer the Tormach Shuttle. This will surprise a lot of you but I find the Vista Pendant to be just overloaded with functions which I don't need, and those I do need work better for me on the Shuttle and are easier to access and use. I also don't like the idea of the MPG either. Again, this all down to personal preference, but the motivation to continue working on the integration has run out and the P2-S has been back in it's box since recording the last part of the video.

2) The first technical problem was just a hal conflict and was easy to resolve. However, there appears to be a general misconception that anything that works on LinuxCNC should also work with PathPilot - well, PathPilot is LinuxCNC - isn't it? Clearly a Lamborghini Aventador isn't a 6.5 liter V12 - that's "just" the engine, in the same way that LinuxCNC is the engine for PathPilot. Integrating the pendant means dealing with LinuxCNC and also modifying the PathPilot code. The PathPilot code can be modified easily but Tormach haven't provided an interface to program against. Each signal needs to be handled individually programmed into the existing code.
This leads to several issues:
a) I'm not prepared to distribute any Tormach code - open source or not.
b) Some, but not all of you will be willing or able to modify your PathPilot installations.
c) I'm not able to offer any support, either for broken installations or for future PathPilot releases. Nor am I prepared to take any responsibility (remember the pendant has an E-Stop).
d) PathPilot updates will effectively remove the modifications (they'll still be there but not applied to the new version). The files modified to support the pendant will most likely also need to be updated for each new PathPilot release.

The only realistic solution would be for Tormach to support the Vista pendant themselves and distribute the necessary code with each new PP release. Whether or not Tormach are prepared to do this, or whether they have other interests is anyone's guess. I spent just a few evenings working on the code (the video took much longer) so if Tormach and Vista worked together the could get this done very quickly - it's not rocket science. I know Lee would like to support PP but unfortunately there are bigger issues than just getting it working.

I'm sorry if this isn't the result you've been hoping for, I did mention the "bad news".
Step

[Strip]

I installed PathPilot, uploaded the files from Vista followed the directions to the tee, and my p1a-s still will not work. Pathpilot gives me an error message and says it must be updated. I had to reinstall the PP disc and reload it to get my machine working. The instructions say to run a makefile which is supposed to place a couple of the vista files in some folders. when I checked the folders do not contain the files. I tried to drag them in manually and I get an error message that permissions are denied. The instructions also say to add a line of code in an .ins file. the code on the instructions do not match the .hal file. Hate to go back to the tormach shuttle, besides costing $90 with shipping, I know it will cost ne some haimer probes too. very aggravating!

[TurboStep]

I installed PathPilot, uploaded the files from Vista followed the directions to the tee, and my p1a-s still will not work. Pathpilot gives me an error message and says it must be updated. I had to reinstall the PP disc and reload it to get my machine working. The instructions say to run a makefile which is supposed to place a couple of the vista files in some folders. when I checked the folders do not contain the files. I tried to drag them in manually and I get an error message that permissions are denied. The instructions also say to add a line of code in an .ins file. the code on the instructions do not match the .hal file. Hate to go back to the tormach shuttle, besides costing $90 with shipping, I know it will cost ne some haimer probes too. very aggravating!

I would at least have expected the installation to work - even if PathPilot may not start, so I decided to download the p1a-s package and give it a try. I'm not familiar with "running" a makefile but if you've copied the required files into the operator folder they can be installed by entering the following command in a terminal window:

make install

Locate the HAL section in the ini file and add the p1as entry as shown below:

[HAL]
HALUI = halui
HALFILE = tormach_mill_5i25.hal
HALFILE = vc-p1as-pp.hal
POSTGUI_SHUTTLEXPRESS_HALFILE = millshuttlexpress.hal
POSTGUI_HALFILE = postgui_tormach_mill.hal

To my surprise PathPilot now started! It turns out that the conflicting entries preventing PP from starting have been commented out (see my old post http://www.cnczone.com/forums/tormac...ml#post1849332). Not only that, but other functionality has also been disabled!
I don't have this pendant but I presume that all the remaining functionality will be work to some degree, but to repeat what I said in my previous post, PathPilot is not "just" linuxcnc. You'll have to try it out and decide yourself.
Step

[Strip]

I would at least have expected the installation to work - even if PathPilot may not start, so I decided to download the p1a-s package and give it a try. I'm not familiar with "running" a makefile but if you've copied the required files into the operator folder they can be installed by entering the following command in a terminal window:

make install

Locate the HAL section in the ini file and add the p1as entry as shown below:

[HAL]
HALUI = halui
HALFILE = tormach_mill_5i25.hal
HALFILE = vc-p1as-pp.hal
POSTGUI_SHUTTLEXPRESS_HALFILE = millshuttlexpress.hal
POSTGUI_HALFILE = postgui_tormach_mill.hal

To my surprise PathPilot now started! It turns out that the conflicting entries preventing PP from starting have been commented out (see my old post http://www.cnczone.com/forums/tormac...ml#post1849332). Not only that, but other functionality has also been disabled!
I don't have this pendant but I presume that all the remaining functionality will be work to some degree, but to repeat what I said in my previous post, PathPilot is not "just" linuxcnc. You'll have to try it out and decide yourself.
Step

Well, first off please understand my coding knowledge is pushed to the limit even just following those instructions. with that said, are you saying the installation worked after you edited out the 2 lines in your previous posts or worked as is? Thanks for your help.

[TurboStep]

Well, first off please understand my coding knowledge is pushed to the limit even just following those instructions. with that said, are you saying the installation worked after you edited out the 2 lines in your previous posts or worked as is? Thanks for your help.

Hi Strip
Sorry, it looks like I threw you off a little with the reference to my old post. Just ignore that for the moment.
Lee (VistaCNC) has already commented out everything that probably doesn't work properly. You won't have the full functionality you had with Mach3 but it looks like the basic features will still be usable, so all you have to do is to get it to install correctly.

After you have copied the files to the home/operator directory according to step 2 of the installation guide, open a terminal window by clicking on the small black rectangle in the title bar (with the >_ characters).
Type make install and then press enter.

The two commands from the Makefile will be executed, automatically copying the files to the correct places and setting their permissions.
You can now close the terminal window.

Copy or move vc-p1as-pp.hal to the specified directory.

The HAL section of the tormach_1100-3.ini file is not quite the same as shown in the installation guide. This is not a problem. It should however look like the example I provided in my last post. All you need to do is to add the the following line so that it looks like the HAL section from my example:
HALFILE = vc-p1as-pp.hal

Save the file and reboot. Path Pilot should now start.

If for some reason your PathPilot still won't start, simply boot back to the desktop again, delete the line HALFILE = vc-p1as-pp.hal, save and reboot.

Let us know how you get on.
Step

[Strip]

Awesome! I can not wait to get home and try this. 1 more thing, I am a little confused on the last step where it instructs you to go and set the decimal display. It looked like this was already done when I opened that file. Is there something special I need to do here?

[TurboStep]

Awesome! I can not wait to get home and try this. 1 more thing, I am a little confused on the last step where it instructs you to go and set the decimal display. It looked like this was already done when I opened that file. Is there something special I need to do here?

For the first attempt I'd leave this set to 3 as recommended in the installation guide - to be on the safe side. As I mentioned earlier I don't have the p1 so I can't test it for you - the p2s configuration doesn't have this value. From the description it appears to set the number of decimal digits after the decimal point which would mean the pendant would display resolution down to 1 thou i.e. 5.123". Once you're sure the pendant is working you could test with a value of 4 which would (most likely) display values like 5.1234".
Good luck
Step

[Strip]

Thanks Step, I will let you know.

[Strip]

Step, I tried what you said and it is working except for the DRO on the pendant. It only says machine power off. Does not change no matter machine state or switch position. any thoughts?

[TurboStep]

Step, I tried what you said and it is working except for the DRO on the pendant. It only says machine power off. Does not change no matter machine state or switch position. any thoughts?

Hi Strip
Thought #1: I'd first check the pendant e-stop button to make sure it's released - but you've probably done that already. Beware - the pendant e-stop functionality has been disabled. IT WILL NOT E-STOP THE MACHINE, but it may affect the behaviour of the pendant.

Thought #2: The MACHINE section of vc-p1as-pp.hal has been disabled. I don't think the first 2 lines are relevant for the p1s, from what I can see the p1s doesn't have this functionality, but third line is probably important. Try simply removing the hash (#) character from the beginning of the third line. This will re-enable the entry and allow PP to send the machine 'on' status to the pendant. See the following example.

# MACHINE
#net machine-on  vc-p1as.machine.on  => halui.machine.on
#net machine-off vc-p1as.machine.off => halui.machine.off
net machine-ison halui.machine.is-on => vc-p1as.machine.ison

I'm fairly sure this won't prevent PP from starting, but if does, simply reboot to the desktop and replace the hash.
Good luck
Step

[Strip]

Thanks step, I will try.

[kstrauss]

With the recent flurry of success comments here I decided to try to get my VistaCNC P4S working on PP. I downloaded the latest from Vista CNC (8/23/2016). Things have been updated since I last checked and there are now PP specific instructions. I didn't want to destroy my working control computer so I did everything on another machine setup with the simulation configuration.
Step 1 says to copy some files to the /home/operator folder. This seemed to work.

Step 2 says to double click Makefile and select Run. Double clicking opens the file in the editor. Doing chmod +x in a terminal window appears to fix that.

I then followed the remaining steps including adding a line in the .ini file. Things start but the P4S seems to do nothing other than display "LinuxCNC". Suggestions?

[Strip]

Wish I could help bud, mine still says "machine Power off" however I did not get a chance to try to remove the # that step suggested yesterday so I still dont know if this fixed it.

[Mooser]

Tried it today with the basic M1 pendant. PP 1.9.2
Totally didn't work, rebooted and it says the control software needs to be updated, tried re-installing 1.9.2, didn't work, ended up having to go to the newest version.
Tried to install the Vista files again, same thing but now it will not even give the option to upgrade the control software.

Same thing though, the .ini file doesn't look like the one in the install example as well as the HAL file that needs the line added doesn't look like the instructions either.
Now to try to fix the PP again and back to the shuttle Ugghhh
M

[TurboStep]

For anyone else contemplating installing the Vista drivers, if you don't read my comments above concerning problem resolution then be prepared to re-install PathPilot.
I haven't tried all the drivers but the ones I've looked at give me the impression that they are UNTESTED and CANNOT WORK. From what I've seen, I find it difficult to believe that they even have a PathPilot installation to test against.

While we're waiting for Strip to get back, I have a question for you all out there. What exactly do you like about the Vista Pendants, and what don't you like about the Shuttle?
I really like the Shuttle. One of my favourite quotes is "Make things as simple as possible, but not simpler." and this is exactly where the Shuttle scores. Jogging at a range of speeds and single stepping (in my case this is always set to 0.0001") without changing any settings is ideal. The results are always predictable - there's no need to switch between S, V and C modes so there's no chance of being in the wrong mode. This is exactly what I want from such a pendant. All the other features (theoretically) provided by the Vista pendants belong elsewhere IMHO.
I've been thinking hard about what I like about the Vista pendant - as I mentioned earlier I bought the p2s - I also mentioned the reason why. To be very honest, I don't like anything about the p2s - at all! Having got almost all of the functions working (part 3 of the video is still to come) I put it back in the box. I'm not blended by the shiny MPG, I don't like the way it feels and how it works with either of the S, V and C modes. The controls are just overloaded with features which I find makes the pendant difficult to use (the p1a series looks better in this respect). I'm therefore much more likely to make a mistake because it's just trying to do too much with too few controls. Again, I believe that many of these additional features belong elsewhere, in particular F% and S%, the third override is also missing - see the Arduino thread for better examples.

So I'm curious, what do you guys find so interesting about your Vista pendants and what are your gripes about the Shuttle?
Step

[Mooser]

I would have to agree that Vista doesn't seem to have a PP to test on (the install instructions look to be just copied from the linux install)

Personally, and I only speak for myself. I've got the basic M1 pendant without the shiny MPG.
I've used the shuttle for years, and the M1 pendant also for several year (with Mach) and even tried the shuttle-pro

I find the shuttle has too large of a footprint and the round shape doesn't lend itself to hanging up on the machine anywhere or knowing what control is what when you put your hand on it. It was originally designed as a controller for video editing and sitting on a clean, flat desk where wouldn't move.
I find the center wheel of the shuttle awkward to use with the little finger divots rather than a raised wheel I can grip (not a fan of the little stick up knob either) especially with dealing with coolant or sitting on anything but a nice flat surface
I do like the outer wheel function

For the Vista, I like the ability to set zero's with the pendant especially since I tend to work on smaller parts and usually have my head stuck in the machine (I have a partial enclosure)
I like being able to see what axis I've got selected looking at the pendant rather than the screen, again, head stuck in the machine.

And of course I've got the pendant sitting here, be nice to use it if I could.
M

[kstrauss]

You asked what I like about the Vista pendant. It has been so long since I've used it I'm having trouble remembering! That said (I have the P4S):

I like the ability to zero an axis and the digital display is nice when my head is inside my enclosure and I can't easily see the monitor. The leds in the Vista are nice to remind you which axis is being jogged or zeroed.

I like to be able to Cycle Start remote from the monitor. I've solved this with a simple Arduino unit that is mounted to the enclosure and does Cycle Start/ Pause/ Reset.

I like that the Vista switches are mostly immune to aluminum chips. I've had several near disasters when a chip jammed a button in the Shuttle while jogging with the Haimer.

Having a real eStop on the pendant was great when running Mach3 but is not particularly important with PP.

I don't like that the Shuttle allows one to accidentally set a dangerously fast jog rate.

I agree with Step that there are too many features which can cause confusion due to overloaded buttons. Neither the Shuttle nor the Vista unit feels particularly comfortable in my hand. I have my Shuttle attached to ping pong paddle shaped piece of aluminum which helps a little.

[TurboStep]

Thanks, you've both listed some valid points. Hmmm, interesting!

I find the shuttle has too large of a footprint and the round shape doesn't lend itself to hanging up on the machine anywhere or knowing what control is what when you put your hand on it....

I don't have an enclosure so I hadn't encountered the need to hang it up. Creating a different form (thinking of a gaming mouse) could reduce the footprint and help to locate the buttons.

I find the center wheel of the shuttle awkward to use with the little finger divots rather than a raised wheel I can grip...

I find the center wheel quite ok but additional dimples would make it easier to use.

For the Vista, I like the ability to set zero's [...] I like being able to see what axis I've got selected looking at the pendant rather than the screen...

I like the ability to zero an axis and the digital display is nice when my head is inside my enclosure and I can't easily see the monitor. The leds in the Vista are nice to remind you which axis is being jogged or zeroed.

These sound like the stronger arguments: zero axes and visual indication of axis being jogged. I'm also cautious about inadvertently changing the step size and I considered disabling the button (just never got around to doing it). I also considered re-configuring it to zero the active axis but figured this was also too risky.

I like to be able to Cycle Start remote from the monitor. I've solved this with a simple Arduino unit that is mounted to the enclosure and does Cycle Start/ Pause/ Reset.

I'd also like to have this and when I get around to putting my feed rate override encoders in a box I'll be adding some buttons for this as well - one button per function. I just think they belong in a separate control, I don't think they belong to the jogging process and just make the Vista pendants more cumbersome to use.

Food for thought...
Thanks again
Step

[kstrauss]

I made a little paddle of 1/4-inch aluminum for my shuttle so that I can hang it up and also get a more comfortable grip. The shuttle fits into the circular recess and is secured with Velcro pads. A Delrin hook on my enclosure goes into the end hole. The handle is now painted bright red so that I can find it among the chips...