Taigmach vs Tormach 440


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    Member DeilyCa's Avatar
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    Default Taigmach vs Tormach 440

    Hello, I understand in the past there have been discussion on Taig vs Tormach 440 - my topic is of the "Taigmach". For those who have not heard of Taigmach, it is the title that John Socha Leialoha coined to a highly modified Taig mill - utilizing Stuart Andrew's upgraded frame as well as Jarrett Grover's R8 Spindle & Power Drawbar. John has stated that he preferred the Taig modified Taig to the Tormach during a discussion in the comments of one of his videos. My main concern is rigidity. No matter what you do to the taig, it does not have the cast iron base of the Tormach mills, rather Stuart's frame is a square steel tubing construction (though it is about x2 the weight of the original!), I worry that it will never be as rigid as the smaller Tormach.

    My needs for a mill are as follows -

    Ability to mill steel
    Main use will be small 4th axis brass parts. (for now)
    Compact

    The main source of information on this topic is John SL, but I would like to hear your opinions on the mill that will best suit me. Thank you.

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    Default Re: Taigmach vs Tormach 440

    Just buy a G0704 or PM25 and convert that. Depending on how far you take the build, it can outperform a 770. But even in a fairly low build out state it will be more machine than a 440/Taigmach.



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    Default Re: Taigmach vs Tormach 440

    Quote Originally Posted by DeilyCa View Post
    Hello, I understand in the past there have been discussion on Taig vs Tormach 440 - my topic is of the "Taigmach". For those who have not heard of Taigmach, it is the title that John Socha Leialoha coined to a highly modified Taig mill - utilizing Stuart Andrew's upgraded frame as well as Jarrett Grover's R8 Spindle & Power Drawbar. John has stated that he preferred the Taig modified Taig to the Tormach during a discussion in the comments of one of his videos. My main concern is rigidity. No matter what you do to the taig, it does not have the cast iron base of the Tormach mills, rather Stuart's frame is a square steel tubing construction (though it is about x2 the weight of the original!), I worry that it will never be as rigid as the smaller Tormach.

    My needs for a mill are as follows -

    Ability to mill steel
    Main use will be small 4th axis brass parts. (for now)
    Compact

    The main source of information on this topic is John SL, but I would like to hear your opinions on the mill that will best suit me. Thank you.
    You nailed it! This line in your post ALMOST says it all..... "My main concern is rigidity. No matter what you do to the taig, it does not have the cast iron base of the Tormach mills" Change Tormach to ANY Mill and you are 100% on target. The Taig machines are PERFECT as they come out of the factory to do desktop / benchtop machining when used as intended. Adding all the heavy duty spindles, frame supports, larger tables, larger spindle motors, larger drive motors, ....anything else that you want to glue to a Taig doesn't add the hundreds or thousands of pounds of base that the other machines that can actually benefit from all of those things have. It's like hooking a Volkswagon Beetle to a loaded semi trailer and "Pretending" you are going to haul freight.

    The stock Taig machines are as rigid as they need to be to do the work they were intended to do. They are as fast as they need to be to do that work. If you need a Haas VF3... buy one.

    Just my 2 cents worth.



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    Default Re: Taigmach vs Tormach 440

    the taig won't have near the rigidity of the tormach 440 . You can save a few bucks and take the time to retrofit a g0704 mill/drill and have a lot more machine than the taig but you won't have as good of a machine as the 440 . The quality of machining between my 440's and the g0704 are a night and day difference . I tossed mine into the corner of my shed after yrs of use .



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    Default Re: Taigmach vs Tormach 440

    A well setup G0794 will out perform 440, there are many examples on this forum that have done so, it will also have a larger work envelope and more rigidity. It will be faster with the exception being high RPM tools. The problem with a G0704 conversion is that without a lot of dedication and a solid understanding of machine setup the conversion can be a long and daunting process, and a poorly setup machine won’t work all the well. The same is true for the Taigmach. The Tormach is turn key, and there’s support that isn’t this forum. For those unwilling to spend the time and effort to make a G0704 conversion work properly, the Tormach is the better option.



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    Default Re: Taigmach vs Tormach 440

    I am going to be prepping my BF20L to go to a new home over the next few months. It'll be a complete set up. Machine, controller, tooling, a double 4 inch vise, touch probe and tool plate. It'll be a good price to see it go to someone that wants to do the same thing I did with it. It was a great platform to get my feet wet and start learning the process.



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    Default Re: Taigmach vs Tormach 440

    [QUOTE=CL_MotoTech;2340230]A well setup G0794 will out perform 440, there are many examples on this forum that have done so,/QUOTE]

    is that based on opinion or personal experience , I haven't seen any examples of side by side comparisons other than my own

    I built my business with a g0704 so I certainly won't knock it , but it was retired immediately upon receiving my pcnc440's and I honestly don't see it coming out of retirement any time soon . I've got that along with 4 other retrofits that got retired at the same time
    Unless a guy adds a far better spindle motor then the g0704 won't take near the same cut . Mine was set up with belt drive and I was getting 5500rpm which was good enough for what it was doing , but the 440 will take a far heavier cut at the same rpm , and at 10000 it will still take a much heavier cut .
    The tormach has much better castings and the only thing that I can find to truly complain about is the contact bearings being in the motor vs mounted to the mill . This hasn't been a problem and I've been running them hard with a lot of machining time on them now , but when the bearings do eventually go then it means that i will have to replace the motor . At the same time they have thousands of hours each , so if something needs to be replaced down the road or even tomorrow then they've earned it
    The g0704 does have the bigger work envelope which can be handy , but if a guy doesn't need it then it's not a necessity .



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    Default Re: Taigmach vs Tormach 440

    Personal experience.

    I built my business with my G0704, and I hopefully will get rid of it sooner rather than later, but when I was looking at machines I visited a local guy to check out his 440 (found him on this site). I decided on a G0704 because I couldn't afford a 440 at the time. If I am being honest, I should have bought the 440. Converting a machine to CNC is not easy, at least not if immediate results are expected. I would have been up and running much faster with the 440, but in the long run the G0704 has won out IMO.

    That said, I've remained friends with the local 440 owner, we often discuss machining over beers. At first he laughed in my face, but slowly and surely I've built my machine out to where it is superior.

    To put this into context, I'm sure I have $7k in my g0704 conversion. The hours? I'm afraid to count them. But, the machine paid itself off in the first six months of ownership. Over the last 5+ years, it's paid itself off many, many times, multiple times each year.

    My G0704 has a 2hp 8k spindle, 10 spot ATC, fully oiled ways, full flood coolant with full enclosure, a real pendant not a shuttle, and can rigid tap. Here's the thing, there are better put together G0704's out there, they get posted here all the time. But feature to price point, the 440 can't compare ($3.5k for the Tormach ATC). The caveat being, you can do the G0704 conversion yourself (that's a big if, I would be full of it if I said otherwise, I'd also be fibbing if I didn't admit that I wanted to burn the thing to the ground a few times). I have roughed in Aluminum (where I do most of my work) with a 4 flute .5" at 90ipm, .2 step over, at .5" depth. That's pretty much max feed for cutting with steppers on my mill, but it will do it and do it reliably. I could probably push the spindle harder, but rigidity does become an issue.

    My neighbor has a Taig mill that's been converted. It works, but it's not even remotely in the league of the G0704 or 440. In my mind, the Taig is workable for certain things, probably awesome for learning. If you want turn key and reasonable capability, go for the 440. If you want to build, learn, and eventually have a fairly capable (relative to larger machines) setup, the G0704 is the best bang for the buck. Obviously I went down this road, there's probably some sort of mental bias involved, but I've tried very hard to evaluate my purchase and conversion honestly as it's quite literally the keystone of my business.



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    Default Re: Taigmach vs Tormach 440

    I didn't go as far with my mill as you have and I'd likely have duplicated the existing mill before going into further options . My 440's and other mills that I use are bare-bones without the options . I weighed out the cost of tool changers and other options vs more spindles running and more spindles won . I look at it in the sense 3 tool changers= 2 mills , (at least thats the price at the time) . My cycle times are somewhat long so I don't take issue with hand bombing tools , otherwise I'd probably have more around the waist than I do now .



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    Default Re: Taigmach vs Tormach 440

    CL_MotoTech, That grizzly build up sounds interesting. Do you have any photos of the mill? Would love to look at them.



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    Default Re: Taigmach vs Tormach 440

    After using Stuarts frame I look at the G0704 and wonder if the z axis is not rigid enough. To take advantage of the frame one really needs a good spindle motor and strong axis drives and motors.



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    Default Re: Taigmach vs Tormach 440

    I can get try to take some photos tonight.

    This one is about a month old, the machine isn't exactly complete in the photo as I was working on it at the time. I still haven't had the time to finish up the cable management, but I have all the stuff to make that happen.





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    Default Re: Taigmach vs Tormach 440

    Wow, that is very impressive. Thank you for getting photos for me! I would be interested in hear more about that tool changer. Is it of your own design?



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    Default Re: Taigmach vs Tormach 440

    Thanks! I keep forgetting to take more, I'll try to remember this evening.

    The ATC is built by user FishingRich here on the forum, he's built it so it's adaptable to a wide variety of machines. It was fairly easy to install, but it was part of a much larger revamp of the machine for me, so it took quite a while to get it all going. But so far so good, it's a great option for anybody looking to take the next step with their conversion. I had long considered building an ATC myself, but the kit is so easy I don't see why anybody would want to do it themself.



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    Default Re: Taigmach vs Tormach 440

    Here's a few more pictures. The front door will get rebuilt at some point. It's bonded and riveted and unfortunately it doesn't fit quite right. It's totally usable but I'm not real happy with it. Otherwise, it's still a work in progress, but it gets its share of work done while I adjust on it. The PDB is also torn down, again, here. I've not quite gotten it right, but I am very close now. Someday I'll get the z-axis drag chain on and redesign the coolant setup. The coolant setup hasn't been adjusted to work with the ATC and all that yet, so it's just hanging out in there with some zip ties. It works, but it's pretty annoying. All of that said, this machine has run 8 hours a day on various projects and been extremely profitable for me. And I think it's been built out at a fraction of the price fo a comparable Tormach. Depending on how your financial commitment is, either option makes sense.

    The side pic shows the VFD, braking resistor, oil pump, oil manifold, and pneumatic solenoid bank. The design was meant to be very pragmatic, totally useable and reliable in the long term, but not overly complicated. The mill of course is like $800, so theres not too much reason to go bananas.












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    Default Re: Taigmach vs Tormach 440

    This decision always comes down to whether you want build a machine, or make parts. Spec-for-spec, you can probably beat the Tormach, but that never accounts for the year you spend building and messing with your DIY machine, or the factory support. I chose to use that year to make parts and get a head start on the CNC learning curve. Also, I’d throw in that if you can find the space, get a 770.


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Taigmach vs Tormach 440

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Taigmach vs Tormach 440