Taig vs X2 vs Sherline?

[george1980m]

Hi,

I'm a newbie looking for a metal capable mill that will be eventually converted to CNC. Here are criteria:

1. What is the best bang for the buck? Taig 2019 CNC ready vs Sherline vs generic X2 + conversion?
2. I mostly will probably use the machine for aluminium and occasional steel



What cost is involved to make a Taig 2019 CNC ready machine to CNC? Do I just need to get stepper motors + drivers + controller? It seems like X2 actually costs more to converted to CNC than Taig. Base machine ~ $700 + $600 conversion kit to make it CNC ready compare to $1200 of Taig?

Should I get a manual Taig and upgrade to CNC later on so I can learn how to mill manually?

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[awerby]

It really depends on what you want the mill to do. The Taig mills are a bit stouter than the Sherlines, and they now have a ball screw option. But Sherline mills work well within their part envelope, and they offer a wider range of accessories. The X2 isn't a brand, but a general category of machines that vary quite a bit - here's a chart that lays out the differences between variants: https://littlemachineshop.com/info/minimill_compare.php Basically the X2 is a heavier mill than either the Taig or Sherline, but as you've noted, they require a lot of work before they're ready for CNC.

The easiest pathway to CNC (if you don't want to buy the full CNC system) is to get a CNC-ready mill from Taig or Sherline and put NEMA 23-frame steppers with 1/4" shafts on it using flexible couplers to deal with any misalignment (which will snap off your motor shafts if you couple them rigidly). Then you need a breakout board and drivers (or the highly-recommended G-540 from Geckodrives, which combines the BOB with 4 drivers), a power supply, a case, and control software (like LinuxCNC, Mach3, or UCCNC), plus either a computer with a parallel port or an adapter which lets it run on USB or ethernet.

If what you want is a CNC mill, I'd say go for it directly; there's not that much you need to learn by running the mill manually, and so much more you can do with a CNC.

[109jb]

Keep in mind that the 1200 CNC ready taig is not a ballscrew machine. The CNC ready Taig with ballscrews is $1850

An X2 conversion kit should take no longer than a few evenings to install. I am confident I could put one on in an evening.

The X2 has an R8 spindle which opens up the possibility of using TTS for tool changing, or just use the R8 alone, either of which is repeatable. The ER collets on a taig are also limiting as to what types of tools you can use. For example, although you could probably machine an adapter, I would not use a boring head, fly cutter or face mill on a taig with ER collets.

The Sherline and Taig machines have nothing wrong with them and they are well made for their intended use. That said, the use is smallish parts and low material removal rates. It is really dependent on what you want to do. You said aluminum and sometimes steel but gave no scale or purpose. Examples of what you may want to machine would help to determine the best fit.

[awerby]

Keep in mind that the 1200 CNC ready taig is not a ballscrew machine. The CNC ready Taig with ballscrews is $1850

[Right; but you don't get comparably high-quality ball screws with the standard $700 X2 conversion kits either. The kits that include them cost around $900.]

An X2 conversion kit should take no longer than a few evenings to install. I am confident I could put one on in an evening.

The X2 has an R8 spindle which opens up the possibility of using TTS for tool changing, or just use the R8 alone, either of which is repeatable. The ER collets on a taig are also limiting as to what types of tools you can use. For example, although you could probably machine an adapter, I would not use a boring head, fly cutter or face mill on a taig with ER collets.

[Some people have a quasi-religious reverence for the venerable R8 collet system which is probably due to their use on the old Bridgeports everybody learned on in shop class. But there's nothing particularly repeatable about them - tools can slip in them as easily as in an ER-type collet, and the latter don't lock up in the spindle or require banging on the top nut to dislodge. Taig sells boring heads and fly cutters that work fine with their mills and the ER collets. But face mills require too much torque frpm the spindle, although the collet could handle them.]

The Sherline and Taig machines have nothing wrong with them and they are well made for their intended use. That said, the use is smallish parts and low material removal rates. It is really dependent on what you want to do. You said aluminum and sometimes steel but gave no scale or purpose. Examples of what you may want to machine would help to determine the best fit.

[I do agree with you there. If the ability to take a heavy cut is what's most important to you, the X2 might be a better bet, although the part envelope is about the same size as the #2019 Taig.]

[109jb]

Awerby, are you still selling Taigs and therefore possibly a bit biased?

The ballscrews that come with the X2 conversion kits are just fine. They are a rolled C7 screw and you can for sure get better, but they are just fine for an X2 and much better than the ballscrews that don't come with the $1200 taig. If considering a CNC ready Taig at $1200, realize you are basically looking at a machine that simply has motor mounts for the stock screws. Under CNC control the stock screws and nuts will wear very quickly, so I would not recommend using the stock screws for CNC. At least not for very long. My first mill I converted using stock acme screws and I very quickly converted to ballscrews.

An R8 tool absolutely is repeatable. I have measured tool length repeatability to about 0.0002" using R8 shank tools. As far as R8 tools slipping, that just doesn't happen if using a proper R8 shank tool. I am not talking about putting a tool in an R8 collet, but using R8 shank tools. Explain to me how an end mill in a R8 end mill holder with a set screw on the weldon shank is going to slip. Or an R8 face mill. Or an R8 fly cutter. In 30+ years of machining this has NEVER happened to me, but I have had tools slip in collets before, including ER collets.

Now using an R8 spindle with a 3/4 collet for TTS opens up the possibility of slippage but it also opens up the ability to use the vast array of TTS tools that are available. The TTS system is used on 2hp Tormach machines with great success, so use on a X2 is not a problem.

In any case, slippage was never mentioned in my post. When I made my statement that I wouldn't use a fly cutter, face mill, or a boring head in a 3/8" ER collet it had nothing to do with whether they would slip or not. It had to do with only having a 3/8" shank.

I have quite a collection of ER 16 and ER 20 collets that I use with my R8 shank mill, so I do have ER experience. Based on this, if I were buying a machine and had a choice between an R8 spindle or a ER16 spindle, I would choose the R8 hands down without hesitation.

In interest of full disclosure, my father had a Sherline setup years ago, and I have used a friends Taig. I have not used an X2 mill but have seen them up close and personal many times, and owned the lathe version (7x12). The Taig, or Sherline or X2 are all great and have their place. Both the Taig and Sherline have much better fit and finish that the typical X2, and I have no doubt that the X2 would have more rigidity. So once again, it all depends on what you intend to do to determine which is better suited for the task.

[awerby]

Awerby, are you still selling Taigs and therefore possibly a bit biased?

[I am still selling Taig and Sherline machines, but I try not to let my enthusiasm lead me into inaccurate statements about them.]

The ballscrews that come with the X2 conversion kits are just fine. They are a rolled C7 screw and you can for sure get better, but they are just fine for an X2 and much better than the ballscrews that don't come with the $1200 taig. If considering a CNC ready Taig at $1200, realize you are basically looking at a machine that simply has motor mounts for the stock screws. Under CNC control the stock screws and nuts will wear very quickly, so I would not recommend using the stock screws for CNC. At least not for very long. My first mill I converted using stock acme screws and I very quickly converted to ballscrews.

[A site selling X2 conversion kits had this to say about their screws: "Our standard ball screws are C7. They are .625" X .2" pitch with a tolerance of +/-.004" over 12" Our premium ball screws are C6. They are 16mm X 5mm pitch with a tolerance of 30 microns over 300mm" For most machinists, being off by as much as .008" in 12" wouldn't be desirable. The stock 20 tpi acme screws in the Taig are more accurate than that, and it takes a very long time to wear them out under normal use (no abrasive materials), especially if you readjust the bronze nuts occasionally.]

An R8 tool absolutely is repeatable. I have measured tool length repeatability to about 0.0002" using R8 shank tools. As far as R8 tools slipping, that just doesn't happen if using a proper R8 shank tool. I am not talking about putting a tool in an R8 collet, but using R8 shank tools. Explain to me how an end mill in a R8 end mill holder with a set screw on the weldon shank is going to slip. Or an R8 face mill. Or an R8 fly cutter. In 30+ years of machining this has NEVER happened to me, but I have had tools slip in collets before, including ER collets.

[I'm sorry to have misunderstood, but you're right about that - I was talking about round-shank tools in R8 collets slipping, not tools that have the R8 as an integral part of the tool, which won't slip, or tool holders with Weldon-shank tools secured by set screws, which are less likely to slip (although it can happen on a plunge),]

Now using an R8 spindle with a 3/4 collet for TTS opens up the possibility of slippage but it also opens up the ability to use the vast array of TTS tools that are available. The TTS system is used on 2hp Tormach machines with great success, so use on a X2 is not a problem.

[I have to admit to a lack of experience with the TTS system, so I can't really comment on it one way or another.]


In any case, slippage was never mentioned in my post. When I made my statement that I wouldn't use a fly cutter, face mill, or a boring head in a 3/8" ER collet it had nothing to do with whether they would slip or not. It had to do with only having a 3/8" shank.

I have quite a collection of ER 16 and ER 20 collets that I use with my R8 shank mill, so I do have ER experience. Based on this, if I were buying a machine and had a choice between an R8 spindle or a ER16 spindle, I would choose the R8 hands down without hesitation.


[You're using an ER collet holder with a r8 shank? That's different from a mill with an integral ER collet system,which is simpler to use.]

In interest of full disclosure, my father had a Sherline setup years ago, and I have used a friends Taig. I have not used an X2 mill but have seen them up close and personal many times, and owned the lathe version (7x12). The Taig, or Sherline or X2 are all great and have their place. Both the Taig and Sherline have much better fit and finish that the typical X2, and I have no doubt that the X2 would have more rigidity. So once again, it all depends on what you intend to do to determine which is better suited for the task.

[Again, we're in agreement about that.]

[109jb]

The tolerance specs of the C7 ballscrews is well known. The kit manufacturer is simply regurgitating the ballscrew manufacturers specs. What is also well known is that in real life the C7 ballscrews are much better than the tolerance would suggest. You will not be off 0.008" in 12". Also, depending on the controller used you have the ability to negate any lead errors by "mapping" the screw. LinuxCNC has this ability where the lead error at intervals along the axis travel is entered into a table that LinuxCNC used to programatically correct for the mechanical lead errors in the software.

I have never had the acme screw out of a Taig, so I will only comment that any bronze nut and steel screw combination is going to wear unless it never turns. The acme screw will need lubrication, which will attract abrazive dust, dirt, etc. and will cause the screw/nut to wear. It happens on all machines with a plain nut. I decided to hunt around on the Taig site and I couldn't even find a spec for the ballscrews used on the Taig machines. Ballscrews wear too, but because of the rolling elements the wear is so greatly reduced that a typical hobby machine will never wear out the ballscrews. This reduced wear along with the vastly improved reduction in rotational friction is the real benefit of ballscrews.

You're using an ER collet holder with a r8 shank? That's different from a mill with an integral ER collet system,which is simpler to use.

Perhaps I wasn't clear because you have misinterpreted my point. I would choose R8 because it is much more versatile. Also, while true that an ER spindle is different that using ER holders, I fail to see how having the ER integral to the spindle is simpler to use? I guess it is simpler in the sense that you only have to worry about ER collets and that's it, but I could simply insert my R8 shank ER16 holder into my spindle and never remove it and operate exactly as the Taig, using only ER16 collets to hold my tools. With R8 though I have the versatility to do that and to use any other R8 shanked tool or adapter that is out there. With an ER16 spindle you are limited to tools with a straight shank that is 3/8" diameter or less.

Speaking of R8 versatility, the list of tools with R8 shanks is very large, including end mill holders, drill chucks, morse taper adapters, shell mill holders, slitting saw arbors, boring heads, fly cutters, face mills, R8 collets, ER collet holders, other style collet holders, Lathe chucks and the list goes on. Because of the R8 popularity, there are some things that just aren't available except in R8. For example the lathe chuck adapters are available in R8, 5C, and Morse taper, but not in other spindle configurations such as BT30, CAT tapers, etc.

Also consider that an R8 CNC milling machine with a lathe chuck adapter can be used as a CNC lathe by simply inserting the lathe chuck and clamping a lathe tool into the vise mounted on the table. I have done this and it works quite well. I have also "turned" smaller diameter parts up to 3/4" diameter on my mill by inserting the stock into an R8 collet rather than using the lathe chuck. It is a bit limited because you don't have a through hole in the spindle to turn very long parts, but my experience is that a great many parts I turn can be done on the mill rather than on a lathe. I've inserted a video example below, not mine but exactly what I have done at times.



So when I say that I would choose an R8 spindle over a ER spindle it is for those reasons.

Also, in addition to the versatility offered by R8 tooling, that same R8 tooling is very inexpensive when compared to other spindle choices. For example a BT30 end mill holder will run you about $60 for one holder. That same end mill holder in R8 is about $15.

As I said, if the Taig or Sherline fit the needs of the user they are great and actually from my experience are very good machines. I am simply trying to point out the benefits of other choices so that the OP can make a decision based on all the information.