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Thread: Stuck with stepper motor upgrades multicam (pics)

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    Default Stuck with stepper motor upgrades multicam (pics)

    Currently, I'm trying to figure out how to upgrade the motors on an old Multicam to a closed-loop NEMA 34 (?) Current motors are shown (8 wires out).
    I'm stuck in the fact that the x motor has the motor shaft on both sides of the motor driving both rack and pinion on both sides of the gantry with a shaft connecting them, connecting with couplers from shaft to motor. The motor drives a 20/60 toothed gear and belt both sides of the gantry.
    Y and z are similar in regards that the y is controlled with a 20/60 belted gear but z is a smaller motor gear driven to a ball screw.

    Issues are
    The size of motor(s) to fit in these spaces
    Closed-loop don't have shafts going all the way through?
    Stepper on both sides of X required?
    Space for z motor as it's smaller?

    Any options or advice is very welcome.
    Link to picture album

    Multicam motors https://imgur.com/gallery/RaqcppZ

    Similar Threads:
    Last edited by blazk; 05-22-2021 at 06:14 AM.


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    Default Re: Stuck with stepper motor upgrades multicam (pics)

    What model multicam is it? I have rewired a few older multicam's and they have all had transmissions on both sides. The big issue with switching out motors is keeping the same size to fit the location and I have not seen servo's with encoders that are dual shaft. My experience is the motors are normally good and I change to modern drivers. I have a 48 plus M cam about finished and I did upgrade to new motors, but stayed with steppers.

    It might be possible to mount a motor outside of that shaft that runs to both sides and belt drive that shaft. Build a motor replacement section with a shaft and gear mounted on it. Having the space to do that may be an issue.



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    Default Re: Stuck with stepper motor upgrades multicam (pics)

    The image doesn't say a lot compared with the description.
    Why would a motor be driving from both ends?.
    The rear shaft of a dual shaft stepper is normally for an encoder or pulley and such.
    Closed loop already have encoders so you can't see their rear shaft (covered is all).

    The image is only suggesting the actual stepper itself is driving a belt from just it's main front shaft.
    That then is turning a pulley with a dual shaft gear set, that's it.

    Edit:
    Missed the fact that it's an album.

    X axis:
    Option 1.
    Remove motor, link the space with a suitable piece of shaft to join both sides back together.
    On the outside of mackine where the hex head bolt is in the end of the shaft with large pulley.
    Get another pulley of pilot bore and bolt that onto the end with a longer bolt.
    Get a second pulley the same size as pilot bore one that fits the new steppers shaft (giving 1:1 ratio).
    Make a braket for external stepper motor mounting so the 2 new pulleys become aligned on the outside of machine.
    Mount stepper and get a suitable length belt.

    I think you'll get my meaning. My wording is a bit crap.

    Option 2:
    Instead of just linking the 2 shafts like above. Where you link the space when stepper is removed, use a shaft with a pulley attached.
    Then do the bracket/ mounting/ pulley/ belt thingy there.

    Last edited by dazp1976; 05-22-2021 at 11:02 AM.


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    Default Re: Stuck with stepper motor upgrades multicam (pics)

    Quote Originally Posted by kenrbass View Post
    What model multicam is it? I have rewired a few older multicam's and they have all had transmissions on both sides. The big issue with switching out motors is keeping the same size to fit the location and I have not seen servo's with encoders that are dual shaft. My experience is the motors are normally good and I change to modern drivers. I have a 48 plus M cam about finished and I did upgrade to new motors, but stayed with steppers.

    It might be possible to mount a motor outside of that shaft that runs to both sides and belt drive that shaft. Build a motor replacement section with a shaft and gear mounted on it. Having the space to do that may be an issue.
    It's a Multicam IIS running an old axyz controller and drivers (at least it runs on windows 10).
    I was thinking of mounting (somehow as there is only 1 mounting plate for the motor) the motors on the inside of the gantry like it is now on both sides and connecting with a belt system.
    It is a 20T to 60T, so 1:3 ratio is set up with the smaller 20T connected on the motor. Space will defiantly come into play.
    I think removing the connection shaft would be the way to go, just don't know how to mount the motors to the gantry as I said above.

    No clue how I'm going to tackle the Y and Z axis there doesn't seem like any good way of mounting both Z and Y motors up there... any suggestions?
    I was just going to put in Gecko 203V stepper drivers and call it a day, but I the current motors are a bit slow and outdated. Since I'm doing a full rewire running a masso i thought it would be a good idea to do it all at once so i can use closed stepper motors / drivers.



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    Default Re: Stuck with stepper motor upgrades multicam (pics)

    The Y and Z seem pretty straight forward. Swap new motors in with the same mounting pattern. On the X you might try to mount a motor on each side on the inside of the plate with the long belt. Having them separate would allow for squaring the gantry with the motors and proxy switches. If space doesn't allow, you could mount servo's with built in gear reduction on each side directly to the drive gears. That won't be as clean as keeping everything tucked in the gantry. I have repaired and ran both servo and stepper systems. Either will do a good job if the system is tuned well and ran within it's limits.



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    So as for motors and drivers I was looking at the NEMA 34s X 4. Thinking these?

    https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Closed-Loop-Stepper-Motor-12NM-Nema-34-Servo-Motor-Control-Driver-1712oz-in-/264595299655?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286

    I know I'll prob have to make a mounting plate for the gantry (inside) for X and probably some sort of enclosure to go over the tip of y and z because the motors will be considerably taller.



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    Default Re: Stuck with stepper motor upgrades multicam (pics)

    So looking at the non-motor side of the X gantry there isn't a mounting location for the motor. My solution is to create/laser cut a 10mm aluminum bracket and tig weld it to the existing plate. This will save me from recreating the other plate on the motor side.
    As for motors ill be replacing them with something like this
    Ebay Link

    Stuck with stepper motor upgrades multicam (pics)-capture-jpg
    Stuck with stepper motor upgrades multicam (pics)-dmmlxnv-jpg



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    Default Re: Stuck with stepper motor upgrades multicam (pics)

    I would check the existing stepper model number first before you buy a new one. You want something that is close as poss to the original.
    Some of those 'high torque' ebay specials aren't very good and are often beaten in terms of performance by a long way using steppers of half the rating.

    Like your sticking up square one on the top in the images. That looks fairly short, kind of like one in the 900oz range.



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    Default Re: Stuck with stepper motor upgrades multicam (pics)

    Any recommendation in terms of motors/drivers? Kind lost in that regard of what to use/get.
    Existing motors: I cant find much information about them, but they are quite small lengthways as you can tell in the album.
    The same motor is used on the x and y the z has a different smaller motor with a magnetic brake on it.
    Stuck with stepper motor upgrades multicam (pics)-jlpawzr-1-jpg
    Stuck with stepper motor upgrades multicam (pics)-aqlxgfv-1-jpg
    Stuck with stepper motor upgrades multicam (pics)-11aqaiy-jpg

    Last edited by blazk; 05-23-2021 at 08:09 AM.


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    Default Re: Stuck with stepper motor upgrades multicam (pics)

    Damn. Had a good look around and there's no useful info on these.
    We'll have to go by the length of the motors as well then.
    The longer the motor, the greater the torque. The shorter the motor the lesser etc.



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    Quote Originally Posted by dazp1976 View Post
    Damn. Had a good look around and there's no useful info on these.
    We'll have to go by the length of the motors as well then.
    The longer the motor, the greater the torque. The shorter the motor the lesser etc.
    Likewise. These motors are prob 10years plus old. They do have the NEMA 32 hole spacing though. 8 wires so 4 pairs joined at the terminal. I'm not really worried about length as I will probably fabricate a new top cover if need be. Just want to get the right motors (or servos) with accompanying drivers so drive this machine reliably and accurately. I'm willing to spend the money on it to a point.



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    Default Re: Stuck with stepper motor upgrades multicam (pics)

    Ebay is a crap shoot. I buy leadshine stuff from these people. Object reference not set to an instance of an object. Motors in the 900oz range should do you fine.



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    Default Re: Stuck with stepper motor upgrades multicam (pics)

    Quote Originally Posted by blazk View Post
    Likewise. These motors are prob 10years plus old. They do have the NEMA 32 hole spacing though. 8 wires so 4 pairs joined at the terminal. I'm not really worried about length as I will probably fabricate a new top cover if need be. Just want to get the right motors (or servos) with accompanying drivers so drive this machine reliably and accurately. I'm willing to spend the money on it to a point.
    I was going to say, if you want accuracy and all that. You may as well go with servo's.
    If you look at steppers of a similar length to what's in there. You'll be in the right ball park.
    Go for ones with the lowest inductance values you can get.
    Generally I find the higher the Amp rating, the better they are.

    I did have a look at this earlier:
    https://www.omc-stepperonline.com/cl...20x%2086%29%5D
    https://www.omc-stepperonline.com/cl...20x%2086%29%5D

    I'm not guaranteeing these are the right lengths though but you can see where I'm coming from regarding this.
    Some of these are prob available on aliexpress.
    I'd go for AC voltage capable drivers, high as possible when it comes to nema34 sizes.
    https://www.omc-stepperonline.com/cl...per-motor.html
    and use a toroidal type supply.
    I'm not a fan of 'kits' anymore'.
    If it were me. The driver I've linked I'd prob run at 65-70Vac leaving a little headroom.

    8 wire steppers are usually best wired in parallel.



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    Default Re: Stuck with stepper motor upgrades multicam (pics)

    A bit more of an update
    So looking at the Leadshine motors and stepper drivers as I have read many good things as well as many YouTubers using them without at problems. I still can't decide on which as there are SO many different models of driver and stepper motor.
    I do have a problem though in that i will need to change the current 20 Teeth synchro / timing pullets (12mm bore, 30mm dia, 9-9.5mm belt) to a 14mm bore (about 4 of them) to accept the NEMA 34 motor shafts. I would like to get these in steel, but kind of hard to find. So might just have to go with the aluminum ones. Unless I can drill the current ones out to suit. Not sure if they are keyed or not, by the looks of it they aren't.

    From stepperonline
    P Series Nema 34 Closed Loop Stepper Motor 8.5Nm/1203.94oz.in with Encoder 1000CPR
    Ship from: China x 4 - AU$591.05
    Y Series Closed Loop Stepper Driver 0-8.5A 20-80VAC/30-110VDC for Nema 34 Stepper Motor
    Ship from: China x 4 - AU$338.83

    Shipping - AU$280.42
    Total - $1210.30AUD .... oof

    Australia shipping ... BRUTAL!

    There is another kit that ships from Australia : https://www.omc-stepperonline.com/cl...nd-driver.html
    Total to the door for this kit x 4 is - $747.64

    Last edited by blazk; 05-24-2021 at 03:00 AM.


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    Default Re: Stuck with stepper motor upgrades multicam (pics)

    Quote Originally Posted by blazk View Post

    From stepperonline
    P Series Nema 34 Closed Loop Stepper Motor 8.5Nm/1203.94oz.in with Encoder 1000CPR
    Ship from: China x 4 - AU$591.05
    Y Series Closed Loop Stepper Driver 0-8.5A 20-80VAC/30-110VDC for Nema 34 Stepper Motor
    Ship from: China x 4 - AU$338.83

    Shipping - AU$280.42
    Total - $1210.30AUD .... oof

    Australia shipping ... BRUTAL!

    There is another kit that ships from Australia : https://www.omc-stepperonline.com/cl...nd-driver.html
    Total to the door for this kit x 4 is - $747.64
    You may as well just buy some Lichuan servo's. I just did a 'quick' search for reference.
    https://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?catId=0&initiative_id=SB_20210524030804& SearchText=lichuan+servo+80

    Won't need to fork out for power supplies. Straight into the mains.



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    Default Re: Stuck with stepper motor upgrades multicam (pics)

    Ended up going with the
    https://www.omc-stepperonline.com/ye...nd-driver.html
    Worked out the torque was spot on to the required needs.As for power supplies I'm already making/redoing the electronics enclosure so adding power supplies was on the list anyways.Just have to work out what Meanwell power supplies I need. As I'm in Australia is 240v mains but I have three-phase (415v) coming into that machine to run that spindle VFD (5Hp 3.8kw).



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    Default Re: Stuck with stepper motor upgrades multicam (pics)

    Quote Originally Posted by blazk View Post
    Ended up going with the
    https://www.omc-stepperonline.com/ye...nd-driver.html
    Worked out the torque was spot on to the required needs.As for power supplies I'm already making/redoing the electronics enclosure so adding power supplies was on the list anyways.Just have to work out what Meanwell power supplies I need. As I'm in Australia is 240v mains but I have three-phase (415v) coming into that machine to run that spindle VFD (5Hp 3.8kw).

    if you can get a 240v feed to it. I'd go with AC toroidal transformer all day long. Up to 70Vac.
    Ali express have some large size meanwell types.
    I just received an 80Vdc for a new 110vdc driver I have. Yet to try it. It's for my 1080o/in stepper.
    60Vdc isn't quite doing it for me.



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    Default Re: Stuck with stepper motor upgrades multicam (pics)

    Like this one. Was already in the machine already does a step down to 240v.
    Stuck with stepper motor upgrades multicam (pics)-qbkui9j-jpg



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    Default Re: Stuck with stepper motor upgrades multicam (pics)

    So little update / questions
    I actually work for a transformer building company as well as an electrical company. I actually can build them myself
    So I'm thinking of building a transformer to output:
    5v 5A Sensors
    12v 5A Fans
    24v 5A Masso Controller
    60v 48A (4 x motors at 6A per phase 12A per motor)
    Might actually work out cheaper to build one than to buy individual power supplies. Plus upside is it's a perfect wave so no interference or noise etc. Opinions?

    The motors don't specify the voltage input they require? Looking at the torque curve seems to be more torque at 60V than 48V so by guessing it would be 60V ?
    Link to Motor
    https://www.omc-stepperonline.com/cl...20x%2086%29%5D



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    Default Re: Stuck with stepper motor upgrades multicam (pics)

    Quote Originally Posted by blazk View Post
    So little update / questions
    I actually work for a transformer building company as well as an electrical company. I actually can build them myself
    So I'm thinking of building a transformer to output:
    5v 5A Sensors
    12v 5A Fans
    24v 5A Masso Controller
    60v 48A (4 x motors at 6A per phase 12A per motor)
    Might actually work out cheaper to build one than to buy individual power supplies. Plus upside is it's a perfect wave so no interference or noise etc. Opinions?

    The motors don't specify the voltage input they require? Looking at the torque curve seems to be more torque at 60V than 48V so by guessing it would be 60V ?
    Link to Motor
    https://www.omc-stepperonline.com/cl...20x%2086%29%5D
    Don't concern yourself with motor voltage.
    It's the driver you go by.
    Voltage reacts to velocity, Amperage reacts to torque.
    As long as you don't go too close or exceed the drivers maximum voltage it's all fine.
    The more voltage you put into them, the higher the maximum achievable velocity.

    As long as you don't stick 60v+ direct into a stepper, you'll be fine.

    Many many folk have nema23/24 size motors attached to bigger drivers using 60V for the performance increase. No issues.



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