Controller Upgrade Required

[Eccles]

Hello everybody, firstly let me say that this forum is the best thing since sliced bread.
As a complete CNC novice, I inadvertently wandered on here about 3 or 4 months ago and within half an hour I vowed to build myself a CNC router. Since then, I have managed to buy myself a second hand machine and I now humbly seek advice from you guys.
I have a small sign business in the UK and the machine I have bought is an Elu 860 Machining Centre, does anybody know of this machine? I hope to be able to use it for routing letters and shapes out of foamex and acrylic etc, and possibly some 3D work,
I do not do a large amount of this type of work and I am able to continue sub contracting while I familiarise myself and do a bit of totally unnecessary upgrading in my spare time.
The machine has an 860 x 860mm machining area and 90mm Z axis travel
The Y axis has 2 lead screws, one attached directly to the motor, the other side driven by a belt from the same motor. The X and Z axis are also lead screw and direct drive from the motors
I don’t know how to calculate the lead screw pitch but I have established that 1 rotation of any of the motors equates to 2mm of travel on the axis.
All the lead screws, bearings and bushes etc seem to be in good condition.
The machine is about 8 or 9 years old and has the following 3 stepper motors:
On the X & Z axis MAE SPA HY200 3424 0310 AL04, (4 wires) on the end cover of the motors it has 13.95. Step Angle 1.8 degrees, Step Angle Accuracy 5%, Rated Phase Current 3.1A, Phase Resistance 0.90ohm, Phase Inductance 2.9 mH, Holding Torque unipolar 2 phases on 141Ncm, Holding Torque bipolar 2 phases on 182Ncm, (I think that this equates to Nemo 34, not sure though?) Maximum applicable voltage 90V.
On the Y axis I have a Step Syn 103-815-7 motor. DC 2.5V, 4.6A, 1.8 Deg/Step (8 wires).
I think that the motors are probably adequate for the purpose however, the control system, although very robust and high quality, is a little out of date.
The machine has a maximum speed of 1800mm per minute (rapid travel) but I think it may be capable of a little more.
The machine appears to be very accurate, the motion is a little jerky on complex 2D curves so I guess 3D work would be even slower, I think this is down to the controller being slow to compute and send the data.
Although the machine works fine, I really relish the thought of upgrading the controller aspect of the machine in order to gain a little more speed and nice smooth constant curves.
The controller is fed from a dedicated machine keyboard and this keyboard can be connected to a PC via a serial lead. The dedicated software that came with the machine is DOS based and has never been updated, it will only run from a DOS prompt in Windows 98.
Assuming that I’m going to dispense with the machine keyboard and the existing controller system, my questions are as follows:
(1) Assuming the machine is in reasonable condition, what is a reasonable maximum rapid travel speed for this type of lead screw machine, as opposed to ball screw.
(2) Are my motors capable of a bit more speed and smoothness with the right controller system?
(3) What are the elements of “The Controller”, in addition to the power supply etc, is it a driver card for each motor, plugged on to a mother board of some kind, with a spare slot for a 4th axis if you want one?
(4) I would like to be able to control the machine from the PC and have a small hand held pad with jog control, stop & start etc, what do you recommend?
(5) I made one enquiry about the price of a controller and was told “Sounds like a nice machine. Sorry to say our controller box will only go to 2.5 amps max per phase where as you are gonna need something more beefy than that“, does this mean I need a 4.6 amp controller?
(6) What is a break out board & what is the oz-in rating on my motors?

I know these questions are a bit basic to most of you guys, but any help or comments would be really greatly appreciated.
.
Thank you in anticipation

Steve
PS Some Pics
http://www.cnczone.com/gallery/data/...Lead_Screw.JPG
http://www.cnczone.com/gallery/data/500/Z_Front.JPG
http://www.cnczone.com/gallery/data/500/Front1.JPG
http://www.cnczone.com/gallery/data/500/Keyboard.JPG
http://www.cnczone.com/gallery/data/...ntroller11.JPG
http://www.cnczone.com/gallery/data/...ntroller41.JPG
http://www.cnczone.com/gallery/data/...ntroller31.JPG
http://www.cnczone.com/gallery/data/500/Controller2.JPG

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[H500]

Without knowing the details of your system, it is impossible to predict whether you can get more speed with a controller update. You will likely get better smoothness since modern drives does microstepping.

Take a look at Geckodrive. As far as I know, any other quality drive that can handle your motors will not cost any less. Your mots are too big for the small drives.

You will need 3 of them, an 80v power supply, limit switches, case and lots of wires. A breakout board is used to connect your PC's parallel port to the drives.

You will also need software. Mach might be a good choice. I think it has a chaotic user interface, but it works well.

[jeffs555]

Nice looking machine. A ball screw would have less friction so the maximum speed would be a little higher, but probably not very much.

Speed is mainly determined by the power supply voltage. The Gecko drives will work with a power supply up to 80 volts. If your existing supply is a lot less than this, you should get more speed with an 80 volt supply.

A breakout board connects to the parallel port on your PC and then the controllers(one for each motor) and the limit switches connect to the breakout board.

[Grom1]

1)rapid travel about 6m/min is not a problem
2)Yes it will be probably.A Quality of a loock a head function defines a constant speed and smoothness at a machining.
3)A controller is a device for a making of control impulses.Impulses make a control for steper drives (like GEKO Drive for example).А controller may be a software programm for a making impulses from LPT pot (it is your case) or a standalone board like DeskCNC or FlashCut.A Standalone board is much more rather in my opinion.
4) DeskCNC or FlashCut
5)I recommended you to use brushless or brush DC drives instead stepper drives.Because is brushless or brush DC drive much more smoothness.
http://www.cadcamcadcam.com/index.as...ATS&Category=3
or
http://metronix.co.kr

[smarbaga]

hello
your 2.5v - 4.5 a motors are 150 oz motors, i think 80 volts will be a little high of a voltage on these .
maybe somewhere around 20 volts or so.
if you are going to change the drives anyways to modern micro stepping ones
do this and try the screws with the new drives, they may work ok, but i would change the drives so u can use a pc with the modern software.
just take it 1 step at a time.
you will probably end up gutting the machine of wires, but i am sure there is a few parts u can keep like the home and/or limit switches, maybe power supply ot some power supply parts, etc... etc.
thats a nice lookin keyboard, if it is pc compatable you may be able to redefine the windows opperating system keyboard handler to match its functions , or to give them your own.

[ger21]

hello
your 2.5v - 4.5 a motors are 150 oz motors, i think 80 volts will be a little high of a voltage on these .
maybe somewhere around 20 volts or so.

For the best performance, you'll want to use 15-20x the rated voltage. 48V is a common size, and probably a good fit for those motors.

[jeffs555]

i think 80 volts will be a little high of a voltage on these .
maybe somewhere around 20 volts or so.

While 80 volts may be a little high, 20 volts would be rather low to get the best high speed performance. The speed limit of a stepper motor is directly proportional to the supply voltage, so for maximum speed you want the highest supply possible. The Gecko manual suggests a maximum of 25 times the motors rated voltage. For 2.5volt motors this would be 62.5 volts, and would provide 3 times the speed of 20 volts. The maximum voltage the motor can take, is limited mainly by heating due to switching losses. Because switching losses are based on other things besides the rated motor voltage, the 25x is more a guideline than a rule. If the motor and drive do not get too hot, then the voltage is not too high.


The following comes from the Gecko drive manual.

"The choice of power supply voltage depends on the high speed performance required of the motor; doubling the voltage doubles the motor’s high speed power. In all cases the power supply voltage should be no less than 4 times or no more than 25 times the motor’s rated voltage. The motor may not run as smoothly as possible if the power supply voltage is less than 4 times the motor’s rated voltage. A power supply voltage greater than 25 times the motor’s rated voltage will overheat and damage the motor, even if it is not turning. Motor winding inductance should be 500 uH or greater."

[Eccles]

Hey guys, I really can't thank you enough for even taking the trouble to read my post, let alone posting your replys, I am just trying to get my head round this lot.
PLEASE don't go away, I'm nowhere near done with this baby yet.
I imagined that I could get hold of a nice neat little box, with 3 neat little sockets to plug my motors in to, an assortment of connectors to plug my stop buttons and sensors in to, and a socket to plug the comuter lead in to, then, if it all went belly up, I could just plug everything back to how it was, how wrong was I?
I will try and check out the spec on the existing power supply because that seems to be the starting point from what you are telling me.
I will be right back
And thanks again

[Blackbird513]

http://www.pmdx.com/Resources/index.html

Here is an excellant source for controllers and synopsis of available software and hardware vendors under the "links" section

[Eccles]

OK I'm back, I haven't established the spec on my power supply yet, but I will somehow.
Just a couple of questions for now:
(1) I think that I have established that the system I am trying to accomplish comprises the control software, which may or may not have an interface card slotted in to the PC, a lead from the parallel port, or the serial port on the interface card, connected to the breakout board.
The 3 motor drives (Gecko 201 for example) are connected to the breakout board.
The 3 stepper motors are connected to the drives, am I roughly right so far?
(2) Do these breakout boards have names, what do you recommend?
(3) Which part of this system does the PSU connect to and which part do the limit switches, stop buttons & jog remote etc connect to?
(4) I think from the opinions regarding voltage, I need to be using about 48 to 60 volts max, is this correct?
(5) Does the PSU have to produce exactly the voltage that is needed or can the voltage be controlled if it is higher than required, if so, which aspect of the system controls the voltage?
(6) Is the Gecko 201 overkill for this project, if so what else do you recommend?
I apologise if I have asked a question that you guys have already answered but I am just trying to get a general consensus.
Once again I thank you

[H500]

The psu should ideally supply the voltage you need without a regulator, which waste power and adds cost. 50-60v is reasonable, although higher is better if your motors don't overheat.

I don't think the g201 is an overkill since the lower cost ones cannot handle the voltage and currents needed by your mots. If your voltage is too low, you might actually get a decrease in performance with the "upgrade"

An alternative is to swap out the motors also. The newer ones have better specs and are quite cheap. Automationdirect.com has decent sized ones for $30-$40.

[Eccles]

After all the information that I have been given, coupled with hours of trawling round numerous other threads, hopefully I am a little bit wiser now, "little" being the operative word.
Here is a quick updated reminder of my stepper motor spec:
On the X & Z axis I have MAE SPA HY200 3424 0310 AL04, (4 wires).
The spec on these 2 motors is: Step Angle 1.8 degrees, Step Angle Accuracy 5%, Rated Phase Current 3.1A, Phase Resistance 0.90ohm, Phase Inductance 2.9 mH, Holding Torque unipolar 2 phases on 141Ncm, Holding Torque Bipolar 2 phases on 182Ncm, Maximum Applicable Voltage 90V. Physical Size is about 60mm long by 85mm diameter.
On the Y axis I have a Step Syn 103-815-7 motor. DC 2.5V, 4.6A, 1.8 Deg/Step (8 wires). I cannot find any more spec on this motor. Physical size is about 95mm long by 85mm diameter.
The present setup has a PSU that provides 31v & 9v and gives my machine a max rapid travel of 1800mm per minute.
If I remove my existing controller/driver, PSU and keyboard etc I am left with the wiring harness that connects to my motors, limit switches and stop buttons etc, and I have a PC running Windows standing next to the machine ready for action.
I would be really grateful if you could answer just a couple more questions, starting from the machine end working my way to the PC:
(1) 3 x Gecko 201’s, are they best suited to get the best out of my machine in terms of speed, smoothness and value, if not, what do you recommend?
(2) Can you buy Gecko’s, or an equivalent, in the UK?
(3) 60 Volt PSU, if this turns out to be slightly too high for the motors, can the Gecko drives control the amount of power sent to the motors or is it full on suck it and see.
(4) Breakout board, can a suitable on of these be bought off the shelf or do I have to try and make one, also on the same subject, does the breakout board need a power supply of some kind or is this provided via the parallel port on the PC?.
(5) Is there a plug and play box of tricks that contains all of the aforementioned at a reasonable price? I don’t mind a bit of wiring and tweaking if required.
Like this for example: http://www.cnc-step.com/englisch/ht..._controlle.html
(6) Windows compatible Software, Mach 2/3, Desk CNC, Flashcut … the list goes on. Which one would be the most suitable/adaptable to my setup?
(7) Stepper Motors, do amps = power & volts = speed?
(8) Have I got a "basic" grasp of the elements that I require or have I missed any important bits?

Any help or comments would be really greatly appreciated .
Thanks again in anticipation

[ger21]

1) Gecko's are the standard by which others are judged, and the best value as well.

2) Don't know

3)Drives can't regulate the voltage, just the current. They'll use all 60V.

4) www.cnc4pc.com www.campbelldesigns.com www.pmdx.com Some need a power supply, some can draw from the motors power supply.

5) Couldn't see your link, but here's a kit. http://www.camtronics-cnc.com/

6) Most here will tell you Mach3 is the way to go.

7) sometimes, sorta, not always. You can't judge a motors torque by the current (amps). Usually, the lower the motors rated voltage, the more torque you can get at higher speeds, by supplying a much higher voltage (up to 20x)

8) Any more questions, just ask.

[Eccles]

Gerry, the only thing missing off you is a cape, you are the man!
Thank you for you concise, informative answers.
I will now go and investigate the info & links and no doubt report back with a few more questions.
I now feel that I am now making real progress with both this project and my general knowledge of the CNC concepts .
Once again I thank you

Steve

[kevb]

hi guys
first post so hello, I have basically the same as eccles but mines branded as trend, stepper motors are all the same spec, built around 2000 I think, well I've broke it and need advice

not had it for long done a few basic jobs on it that came installed on the pc, seemed to ok, so getting a bit more confidence I thought I would try some 3D carving, thinking that the installed software (easycnc) was a little out dated, I installed mach3, set it up, zeroed the axis, started the program, all went well for about 2 minuets then nothing, thought at first the pc had crashed, but that seemed ok, so gave it about 10 mins to see if it would recover, well it never did, so closed mach3 down,

now the problems start, went to the onboard control panel to move the axis to recover the work, X & Z moved up and along no problem, Y axis was not good, the stepper drive motor screamed as if slipping, gave it a push and it moved normal for a while then stuck again and screamed, a push and back to normal, when moving a slight touch can stop it, at first thought the motor had gone bad, so to test swapped plugs with the X axis motor Y now worked as normal with full power and cant physically be stopped, X was totally dead,, put the plugs back to normal and its back to being weak and screaming,

well I took the covers off to have a look inside to check fuses and connections and saw a couple of transistors had blown 1 ( L6203 0-48VDC motor controller) and 1 (BDW93C 12A darlington transistor) so being fairly handy with the soldering iron, I thought why not have a go replacing them, anyway ordered bits and replaced them, but when put back together I still have the same faults, so there must be more damage to the board that cant be seen, as I'm not skilled enough with the test meter to check it over I'm going to give it up as dead

the way I see it now I can either try to get a new board, or go along the upgrade route that has been s9uggested to eccles, the upgrade sounds nice if its going to improve it and make it more user friendly with the more advanced software/ hardware of today, than was available 10+ years ago when this was made,

as this original thread was first posted back in 2005 I'm wondering what you guys would suggest now?

I've had a look at the gecko drives at PMDX.COM - Products for CNC and motion control applications
what's your views on PMDX.COM - Products for CNC and motion control applications looks easier to install when its all plugged together as one unit.

would someone be kind enough to put together a detaled list of parts i would need

im not sure if the spindal is AC or DC would i have to configure this to turn on / off manually or would it be auto with one of these PMDX-132 combo boards?

the machine is fitted with a inverter power supply SysDrive.3G3JV cnc inverter would this be usable? (attached a pic of spec plate)


many thanks in advance

regards
kevin

P.S.

steve (eccles) if your still around i woud be interested how you got on with upgrading yours

[Eccles]

Hi Kev, I just glanced your post but I have to go to a meeting.
Will get back in touch mate.
Steve

[kevb]

hi steve
thanks got it working again today, found another faulty resistor, so all's well,
would be still interested to hear if and how you upgraded yours, incase i need to in the future,
thinking mach3 caused the damage, as sure i read some where before that if not setup right can cause damage to control board, but cant find it again, so will investigate more into this before running mach3 again,

kevin

[Mariss Freimanis]

Eccles,

A suggestion for you if you have a 24VDC power supply hanging around and if you are planning to use our drives:

1) Pick the most stressed axis (x-axis?) and power up only that axis with your low voltage supply. Using only a single axis insures you only need modest current from the supply (<3A).

2) Using Mach3 or other CNC controller, keep increasing your speed as you jog back and forth. Eventually you will reach a speed that will be too high for the motor to run reliably. Back off to the last reliable speed and jot it down as you "what you got" speed.

3) Divide your "what you want" speed by the "what you got" speed and multiply the result by 24VDC. This will give you the optimum power supply voltage for your power supply you will then actually use.

Example: Say you wanted 3 meters per minute and you got 1.2 meters per minute with 24VDC. 3 divided by 1.2 is 2.5 and 2.5 times 24VDC is 60VDC. 60VDC then would be your optimum power supply voltage.

This method nicely baselines both your motor and your mechanism to empirically arrive at the best supply voltage given your specific mechanicals.

Mariss

[Woodpecker-1940]

Hello Chaps with Trend CNC's
I have had several in the main they are a good machine. The older ones have a control box on the side of the machine into which the Console is pluged via a R232 cable. The software is Draw and Engrave for Trend. The more modern machines use a Goya Control System which will accept D&G but has a number of post processors in the operating list.

I currently use a 600 600 with the modern system along with VCarve Pro. I also have a 860 920 ( was an 860 860 which was upgraded ) and it is about to be run of the new control system using a dedicated pc for each machine and moving the router head over from one to the other.

The older machines will NOT do 3D work with the old control system so you can onle do 2D work. I am looking into another control system to run the 600 600 and my go down to one machine so save the hassel of swithcing from one to the other. On that watch this space!!

[keithstanley]

Hello Woodpecker-1940, I am trying to help a friend, (here in the UK), who is new to CNC and has a Trend CNC Smart Plus with a dead Goya panel. The price to replace the Goya panel is very high and as I have a custom built machine we are discussing replacing the Goya panel with a setup such as Gerry has previously suggested. Is this the sort of thing you have already done?
Do you have any details of the conversion on your machine?
Do you have an idea of the cost of doing this?
Do you have any advice?
Many thanks in advance!!!