EMI noise, grounding, connection problems with new VFD 2.2kw spindle


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Thread: EMI noise, grounding, connection problems with new VFD 2.2kw spindle

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    Default EMI noise, grounding, connection problems with new VFD 2.2kw spindle

    I am at a loss and don't know enough about EMI and/or grounding loops to troubleshoot my issue properly, and I am hoping someone has something I haven't tried.

    I have a X-Carve (kind of), I am using the X- Controller on an upgraded rail kit from https://cnc4newbie.com. Just upgraded to a 2.2 kw, 220v, water cooled spindle with VFD. The 220 line is separate from the power source for the X-Controller board. It's all household, single phase.

    Here is the issue. Once I got everything installed, it works ok a couple times. Then it started disconnecting from the computer mid carve. At this point, the second I push the run button on the VFD, the connection is lost.

    Here is what I have done to troubleshoot:

    1. Replaced all the wires to my steppers with shielded wire and grounded them all together to a GND terminal on the X-Controller. (only one end was grounded.)
    2. Tried the X-Controller plugged into different power outlets.
    3. Un-Plugged ALL the Steppers from the board. Only the grounding of the shielding wires were connected.
    4. Grounded the CNC frame to the VFD Ground.
    5. Tried grounding the CNC frame to the X-Controller.
    Also I replaced my USB cable with a dual choke, shielded cable.

    All the scenarios above resulted in lost connection

    The only way it stays connect is as follows:

    1. All the wires are disconnected from the X-Controller. (So only the Power and USB) or.
    2. All steppers and grounding connected to X-Controller but the spindle is removed from the mount and not making connection to the CNC Frame.

    I am thinking the aluminum frame of the CNC rails and gantry are somehow amplifying the EMI? Perhaps its a grounding issue, but I have tried grounding the CNC to different grounds. I don't think I have any ground loops.

    Help.. I am hitting a wall!!!

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    Default Re: EMI noise, grounding, connection problems with new VFD 2.2kw spindle

    Just reading what you wrote, I’d find a way to check that spindle out. Or the way it was wired. I’m have a similar setup and have no issues.
    What’s concerning is the talk of electrical noise from a 220v spindle that has water running thru it.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



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    Default Re: EMI noise, grounding, connection problems with new VFD 2.2kw spindle

    ...its the USB Interface...---... 9 times out of 10.



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    Default Re: EMI noise, grounding, connection problems with new VFD 2.2kw spindle

    Quote Originally Posted by Dean448 View Post
    Just reading what you wrote, I’d find a way to check that spindle out. Or the way it was wired. I’m have a similar setup and have no issues.
    What’s concerning is the talk of electrical noise from a 220v spindle that has water running thru it.
    Thanks for the reply. I did test the spindle before installing it and it tested normally. Also, it is my understanding that all motors produce a certain amount of EMI, but these spindles in particular produce a lot because they are three phase.



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    Default Re: EMI noise, grounding, connection problems with new VFD 2.2kw spindle

    Quote Originally Posted by machinehop5 View Post
    ...its the USB Interface...---... 9 times out of 10.
    Thank you. Forgive me for asking, and please understand that this is a real question, but how could it be the USB cable? It stays connected as long as the steppers and wire grounds are disconnected or the spindle is removed from the motor mount... in both scenarios it stays connected with every USB cable I have tried.



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    Default Re: EMI noise, grounding, connection problems with new VFD 2.2kw spindle

    Then it started disconnecting from the computer mid carve.
    what syntax error you got when the router stop running?



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    Quote Originally Posted by asuratman View Post
    what syntax error you got when the router stop running?
    No error, no syntax. The spindle stays on but the cnc stops in its tracks. The indicator in my program (Easel) that shows connection, shows as not connected.



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    Default Re: EMI noise, grounding, connection problems with new VFD 2.2kw spindle

    I'm not familiar with your hardware but it sounds like you are running 5 volts. Industrial controls run 24 volts for a reason. Its a lot harder for noise to change the voltage enough to trigger a fault with the higher voltage.

    Rod Webster
    www.vmn.com.au


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    Default Re: EMI noise, grounding, connection problems with new VFD 2.2kw spindle

    Quote Originally Posted by cholme View Post
    Thank you. Forgive me for asking, and please understand that this is a real question, but how could it be the USB cable? It stays connected as long as the steppers and wire grounds are disconnected or the spindle is removed from the motor mount... in both scenarios it stays connected with every USB cable I have tried.
    Leave the stepper grounds disconnected then, (if it works without them).
    You'll have to find a scenario with your machine that works with no problems.
    When machinehop5 said 'usb interface' think of it like this:

    Over the years machines get more advanced and need more I/O.
    Parallel connections were used for decades (and still are widely) but limited on I/O's
    USB started to be used, allowing more I/O but is now quickly being replaced with LAN.

    Why is usb becoming quickly outdated?. Because it is suseptable to bad noise problems.



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    Default Re: EMI noise, grounding, connection problems with new VFD 2.2kw spindle

    Quote Originally Posted by cholme View Post
    I am at a loss and don't know enough about EMI and/or grounding loops to troubleshoot my issue properly, and I am hoping someone has something I haven't tried.

    I have a X-Carve (kind of), I am using the X- Controller on an upgraded rail kit from https://cnc4newbie.com. Just upgraded to a 2.2 kw, 220v, water cooled spindle with VFD. The 220 line is separate from the power source for the X-Controller board. It's all household, single phase.

    Here is the issue. Once I got everything installed, it works ok a couple times. Then it started disconnecting from the computer mid carve. At this point, the second I push the run button on the VFD, the connection is lost.

    Here is what I have done to troubleshoot:

    1. Replaced all the wires to my steppers with shielded wire and grounded them all together to a GND terminal on the X-Controller. (only one end was grounded.)
    2. Tried the X-Controller plugged into different power outlets.
    3. Un-Plugged ALL the Steppers from the board. Only the grounding of the shielding wires were connected.
    4. Grounded the CNC frame to the VFD Ground.
    5. Tried grounding the CNC frame to the X-Controller.
    Also I replaced my USB cable with a dual choke, shielded cable.

    All the scenarios above resulted in lost connection

    The only way it stays connect is as follows:

    1. All the wires are disconnected from the X-Controller. (So only the Power and USB) or.
    2. All steppers and grounding connected to X-Controller but the spindle is removed from the mount and not making connection to the CNC Frame.

    I am thinking the aluminum frame of the CNC rails and gantry are somehow amplifying the EMI? Perhaps its a grounding issue, but I have tried grounding the CNC to different grounds. I don't think I have any ground loops.

    Help.. I am hitting a wall!!!
    No EMI does not get amplified think of it as being like covid virus, it needs a mask as well, it's in the air just as much as it is running through your wires

    The source is your VFD Drive so photos of this and the wiring is important so I can tell you what to do to correct it

    Post photos of you Grounding it sounds like you may have a Ground loop, Shields can not be connected to a terminal block and all motor cable shields need to be connected at both ends with a clamp directly to Ground ( Ground Plane ) Ground Plane is the metal plate that everything is mounted on

    Did you check the the 4th pin ( Ground ) of the spindle plug, has continuity with the spindle body, most are not connected and this needs to be corrected

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: EMI noise, grounding, connection problems with new VFD 2.2kw spindle



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    Default Re: EMI noise, grounding, connection problems with new VFD 2.2kw spindle

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    Did you check the the 4th pin ( Ground ) of the spindle plug, has continuity with the spindle body, most are not connected and this needs to be corrected
    I've seen that mentioned before somewhere.
    I remember someone saying that it was because the Chinese regs are quite relaxed when it comes to earthing.
    As a result some manuf' just don't bother connecting it up.

    Surprises me that some of this equipment actually gets a CE mark to be honest.



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    Default Re: EMI noise, grounding, connection problems with new VFD 2.2kw spindle

    Quote Originally Posted by dazp1976 View Post
    I've seen that mentioned before somewhere.
    I remember someone saying that it was because the Chinese regs are quite relaxed when it comes to earthing.
    As a result some manuf' just don't bother connecting it up.

    Surprises me that some of this equipment actually gets a CE mark to be honest.
    The machines that are exported have little to no Grounding also, so have to be rewired when someone gets a machine like this, CE mark and other code markings are meaningless and are never checked when imported

    Some manufactures in China are very good with using Ground connections in these spindles, but the other 90% don't bother connecting it, and most of these are exported to the unsuspecting buyers, some of these spindles come with a 3 Pin Plug for the 3Ph connection, they even advertise that the Ground does not need to be connected, and some users actually believe this, even though electrical codes are clear about Grounding

    This is called population control by electrocution, ( faults happen with these spindles a lot more than one would think, most of the time the cause is from a bad installation wiring problems mostly ) in China electrocution is a daily occurrence

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: EMI noise, grounding, connection problems with new VFD 2.2kw spindle

    Ok... I haven't checked this in a while but I had to get it up and running so here is what I did.

    In case anyone had similar issues I'll post what I did to fix this.


    My machine is not really an X-Carve anymore. I upgraded the rails, gantry and z axis with cnc4newbie.com so it is a solid aluminum body with linear bearings and lead screws (vs rubber wheels and belts)... this means the the entire machine connects the ground on the spindle. I did check the 4th pin and it had continuity with the body of the spindle.

    With ANY cables connected to the back of the X-Controller, stepper motors or limit switches, the machine would loose connection. In other words, even if just the limit switch plug was in, the machine would loose connection the second the spindle starts.

    I tried grounding the rails in different places, tried grounding the shielding wire to the X-controller, grounding the shielding wire to the chassis, directly to the shop ground... every combo. I tried grounding my stepper cables at one end and at both ends. I was careful to trace the grounds to avoid grounding loops.

    I was doing some testing on the spindle and removed it from the mount... the machine ran with no problems. The minute I put it in the mount, I would loose connection.

    I replaced all the wiring with braided shielding wire and grounded it.

    Finally, the only solution I came up with is that I made a new mount for the motor out of a phenolic material (hard but non-conductive)... it runs perfectly. (Of course I had to put my old router on to make the mount for the new motor ????)



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    Default Re: EMI noise, grounding, connection problems with new VFD 2.2kw spindle

    Quote Originally Posted by cholme View Post
    Ok... I haven't checked this in a while but I had to get it up and running so here is what I did.

    In case anyone had similar issues I'll post what I did to fix this.


    My machine is not really an X-Carve anymore. I upgraded the rails, gantry and z axis with cnc4newbie.com so it is a solid aluminum body with linear bearings and lead screws (vs rubber wheels and belts)... this means the the entire machine connects the ground on the spindle. I did check the 4th pin and it had continuity with the body of the spindle.

    With ANY cables connected to the back of the X-Controller, stepper motors or limit switches, the machine would loose connection. In other words, even if just the limit switch plug was in, the machine would loose connection the second the spindle starts.

    I tried grounding the rails in different places, tried grounding the shielding wire to the X-controller, grounding the shielding wire to the chassis, directly to the shop ground... every combo. I tried grounding my stepper cables at one end and at both ends. I was careful to trace the grounds to avoid grounding loops.

    I was doing some testing on the spindle and removed it from the mount... the machine ran with no problems. The minute I put it in the mount, I would loose connection.

    I replaced all the wiring with braided shielding wire and grounded it.

    Finally, the only solution I came up with is that I made a new mount for the motor out of a phenolic material (hard but non-conductive)... it runs perfectly. (Of course I had to put my old router on to make the mount for the new motor ????)
    On my plasma cutter I have seperate ground wires from motors and every moving part part back to a star ground point. That includes bridging the linear rails etc right to the torch mount. Might be a bit hard to bridge a spindle like that but if you had the table and the spindle assembly both grounded seperately (which is the case for me), that might avoid any stray current passing through the spindle bearings.

    Rod Webster
    www.vmn.com.au


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    Default Re: EMI noise, grounding, connection problems with new VFD 2.2kw spindle

    Quote Originally Posted by rodw View Post
    On my plasma cutter I have seperate ground wires from motors and every moving part part back to a star ground point. That includes bridging the linear rails etc right to the torch mount. Might be a bit hard to bridge a spindle like that but if you had the table and the spindle assembly both grounded seperately (which is the case for me), that might avoid any stray current passing through the spindle bearings.
    You can not avoid voltage passing through spindle Bearings unless they are ceramic, Rotor voltage is present in all 3 Phase motors run with a VFD drive the only path it has is through the Bearings and then to Ground if correct Grounding is in place

    It sounds like cholme wiring is not correctly done as well, and it may even be unsafe, as you don't need to do what he has done to correct a noise problem

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: EMI noise, grounding, connection problems with new VFD 2.2kw spindle

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    It sounds like cholme wiring is not correctly done as well, and it may even be unsafe, as you don't need to do what he has done to correct a noise problem
    Maybe not on a mill but its best practice for a plasma machine.

    Rod Webster
    www.vmn.com.au


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    Default Re: EMI noise, grounding, connection problems with new VFD 2.2kw spindle

    Quote Originally Posted by rodw View Post
    Maybe not on a mill but its best practice for a plasma machine.
    He has isolated the problem which would be a safety issue, for something like a 3 phase motor / spindle, it does not matter what machine you are wiring or what country you live in, it still has to meet electrical code regulations

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: EMI noise, grounding, connection problems with new VFD 2.2kw spindle

    I would love to find out what is actually going on. I don't know if photos will explain very much, but I will try to explain how it is setup and wired.

    Here is what I have:
    X-Carve with upgraded rails, and gantry (aluminum rails with linear bearings)
    2.2kw water cooled spindle 220v

    I am on household 220v

    My spindle is wired with #18 awg, braided sheilded wire. Pins 1,2,3 are wired to U,V,W on the VFD. The shielding is grounded at the VFD. Pin 4 I tried both running to the ground on the VFD and I tried it not wired to anything. (same results on both)
    My VFD is wired directly to a dedicated 220v breaker (Black, Black, Green - Hot, Hot, Ground)

    I'm not sure what other info is needed. I don't want anything to be unsafe and can't imagine what could possibly wrong.

    EMI noise, grounding, connection problems with new VFD 2.2kw spindle-img_3169-jpeg



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    Default Re: EMI noise, grounding, connection problems with new VFD 2.2kw spindle

    In no way would I consider myself an expert... but I do remember seeing someone adding 220 to their shop and they had to replace the plastic conduit with metal and run individual wires. Previously they were going to run romex through the plastic conduit. I do not recall what the issue was (maybe a grounding issues??) but it might be worth looking into.

    Another area to consider is the dust collector, is the flexible tube properly grounded?



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EMI noise, grounding, connection problems with new VFD 2.2kw spindle

EMI noise, grounding, connection problems with new VFD 2.2kw spindle

EMI noise, grounding, connection problems with new VFD 2.2kw spindle