Need Help! What's the story on 1.5kW 110V VFDs?


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    Default What's the story on 1.5kW 110V VFDs?

    After letting the magic blue smoke out of the 110V 1.5kW Huanyang VFD that was running my spindle, I'm in the market for a replacement and was thinking about investing in something a little less Chinese (and maybe something broadcasting just a touch less RF noise) for a change. The problem, after some cursory shopping, is that the Chinese (whether Huanyang or the lookalike no-brand knockoffs) seem to be the only ones making drives in that spec - although there are plenty of 1.5HP (1.1kW) units in less importy makes.

    So what's the story on these drives? Are spindles & VFDs both just sold with inflated numbers and the more respectable companies' marketing departments have too much integrity to push their claims quite that far? Are they unsafe, and the Chinese manufacturers are just the only ones reckless enough to make & sell them to clueless hobbyists? I think I even spotted a 2.2kW 110V model, which might point in that direction. Or am I just lousy at shopping?

    While I'm here, I also wouldn't mind any recommendations (because, well... that whole "lousy at shopping" bit) - whether specific models, brands, or favorite vendors. Price is a bit of a limiting factor, although I could probably drop a couple times the price of the imports. I'd had a good experience in the past with a little Leeson Speedmaster on my South Bend, but anything close in size from them looked like it was going to break my wallet at $500-600. Interference (both with an older PC, and with a recent grbl board I was trying out) was also a recurring problem with the HY - and getting significantly worse leading up to the
    murd...tragic accident - so something that doesn't flood the airwaves with garbage like a Clearchannel station's Top X countdown would be even better.


    -Bats



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    Default Re: What's the story on 1.5kW 110V VFDs?

    If you look at the specs of something like a 2.2Kw Hitachi VFD, you'll see that it can draw 25+ amps at 240V. So a 120V 2.2KW VFD would need over 50 amps. That would translate to a 1.5KW 120V VFD needing 35+ amps. Most people are likely running them on 15 or 20 amp circuits, and getting only about half their claimed power.

    If 120V is your only option, you're probably better off using a 2-1/4HP router motor.

    Gerry

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    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


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    Default Re: What's the story on 1.5kW 110V VFDs?

    Quote Originally Posted by batcrave View Post
    After letting the magic blue smoke out of the 110V 1.5kW Huanyang VFD that was running my spindle, I'm in the market for a replacement and was thinking about investing in something a little less Chinese (and maybe something broadcasting just a touch less RF noise) for a change. The problem, after some cursory shopping, is that the Chinese (whether Huanyang or the lookalike no-brand knockoffs) seem to be the only ones making drives in that spec - although there are plenty of 1.5HP (1.1kW) units in less importy makes.

    So what's the story on these drives? Are spindles & VFDs both just sold with inflated numbers and the more respectable companies' marketing departments have too much integrity to push their claims quite that far? Are they unsafe, and the Chinese manufacturers are just the only ones reckless enough to make & sell them to clueless hobbyists? I think I even spotted a 2.2kW 110V model, which might point in that direction. Or am I just lousy at shopping?

    While I'm here, I also wouldn't mind any recommendations (because, well... that whole "lousy at shopping" bit) - whether specific models, brands, or favorite vendors. Price is a bit of a limiting factor, although I could probably drop a couple times the price of the imports. I'd had a good experience in the past with a little Leeson Speedmaster on my South Bend, but anything close in size from them looked like it was going to break my wallet at $500-600. Interference (both with an older PC, and with a recent grbl board I was trying out) was also a recurring problem with the HY - and getting significantly worse leading up to the
    murd...tragic accident - so something that doesn't flood the airwaves with garbage like a Clearchannel station's Top X countdown would be even better.


    -Bats

    It only smoked because it was not programed correctly or wired incorrect 1.5 Kw normally works ok on 120v so it was more something that you did rather than being made in China

    If you only have 120v supply then there are not many choices as 1.5Kw is around the max for a VFD run Spindle like this

    So how did you have the input Power connected and how did you have the VFD Drive parameters set

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: What's the story on 1.5kW 110V VFDs?

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    It only smoked because it was not programed correctly or wired incorrect 1.5 Kw normally works ok on 120v so it was more something that you did rather than being made in China
    Oh, it absolutely smoked because of something I did - not from any defect of the drive's. Sorry if I wasn't clear on that bit. The only thing I can blame the drive itself for was a sudden ramp-up in interference (without any accompanying change in installation or usage) in the last week of its life, causing a grbl controller six feet away to cry, and me to troubleshoot far too late into the night, until I eventually smoked the drive when a carelessly misthreaded cowl shorted out the pins in the spindle plug (and nearly me along with it - don't try this at home, kids, I'm a highly-trained professional moron).

    My reason for wanting a "less Chinese" unit (which was a poor choice of phrase - I apologize) has nothing to do with any inherent "Chineseness" of the device or manufacturer, and more to do with the problems that almost inevitably come with buying products from companies based there. Cryptic & poorly translated manuals, battling the language barrier with overseas support (not that domestic companies are always great about this either, mind you), and the dim prospects of ever trying to return a potentially defective product (warrantied or not) to China all add up to a loss of confidence in even the best product before even opening the box. After all (and I suppose I can blame American capitalism for the cynical viewpoint) why should a company worry about quality when there's so much isolating them from their customer?

    For the money, the HY unit was a bargain, and I haven't entirely ruled out just replacing it with an identical unit (err... assuming I could even find an alternative)... But without understanding what was going wrong with i ( before I killed it), I'm more than a little leery, and wanted to see what my options were for not-quite-so-bargain VFDs.

    If you only have 120v supply then there are not many choices as 1.5Kw is around the max for a VFD run Spindle like this
    That's fine - I'd be perfectly happy with another 1.5kW unit, since , aside from being the biggest the circuit can handle, it'll be driving a 1.5kW spindle (or at least 1.5kW nameplate) that's already far too big for the lightweight extrusion-based machine it's on - so I'm really not pushing it very hard to begin with.

    What I was primarily asking, though, was why there aren't more of that size out there. Aside from Huangyang and their imitators/counterfeits, no one else seems to make one, and I was curious about the reasons. I only mentioned the 2.2kW version as an instance of a similar model being advertised with wildly unrealistic (or at least dramatically less useful) specs.

    So how did, you have the input Power connected and how did you have the VFD Drive parameters set
    If you still think it's relevant, say the word & I'll dig out my notes this afternoon (it's difficult to check on the display, seeing as it's dark & leaking smoke and all). I'd very much like to get a better understanding of what (aside from the recently ended warranty) could cause it to go from running normally to spewing unworkable amounts of noise over the course of an afternoon (again, without any changes in wiring or usage in a week or two) - especially if I'm having to consider a similar replacement.


    - Bats




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    Default Re: What's the story on 1.5kW 110V VFDs?

    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    If you look at the specs of something like a 2.2Kw Hitachi VFD, you'll see that it can draw 25+ amps at 240V. So a 120V 2.2KW VFD would need over 50 amps. That would translate to a 1.5KW 120V VFD needing 35+ amps. Most people are likely running them on 15 or 20 amp circuits, and getting only about half their claimed power.
    That sounds like a pretty good argument for not selling a model, I guess - although the nameplate on this one (see below) claims 13A. Based on that, my assumption was 120V*13A=1560W, and then they just go a little light on the output side to make up the efficiency loss. The "Rated Motor Current" parameter can't even be set above 7A (while it was paired w/an 8A spindle), which comes out around 1.3kW. As long no one does a head-to-head comparison with a spindle that's actually running on 1.5kW, everyone's happy (or at least I'm happy - the spindle's so over-matched for a little extrusion machine, I could take a pretty hefty power loss before it would start to hurt).

    Unless, of course, some or all of my assumptions and / or math are completely and utterly wrong.

    Which is entirely possible, and probably even likely, seeing as I really don't have any clue what I'm talking about.

    I do know that I was able to run it on the same 15A circuit as a "6.5HP" shopvac (speaking of debatable ratings) and the CNC's steppers (a 7A PSU) and only rarely trip a breaker. I'm assuming that's because I'm so far from stressing the motor, more than because the nameplates are that far out of touch with reality.


    What's the story on 1.5kW 110V VFDs?-img_20200330_203548-jpg What's the story on 1.5kW 110V VFDs?-img_20200330_203530-jpg

    If 120V is your only option, you're probably better off using a 2-1/4HP router motor.
    Possibly. But I've grown quite attached to this water-cooled spindle over the past year, and between the speed control, ER16 collets, lack of blowing chips, and all that beautiful silence, I think giving it up now might be enough to make me cry.

    I have considered a 220V line on more than a few occasions, but the lack of empty slots in the box made things look a lot more involved (and, mostly, expensive), so for the moment I'm stuck on 120V.


    - Bats

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails What's the story on 1.5kW 110V VFDs?-img_20200330_203530-jpg   What's the story on 1.5kW 110V VFDs?-img_20200330_203548-jpg  
    Last edited by batcrave; 04-01-2020 at 01:39 PM. Reason: typos. lots o' typos.


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    Default Re: What's the story on 1.5kW 110V VFDs?

    I just purchased a WEG VFD from Automation Direct. I am very happy with it. It costs a bit more but I think it is worth it to buy quality products from a US corp. I also got the RS-485 interface card to control it. I am using it to run a 2.2KW 220V water cooled Spindle. The VFD is under rated for the motor, but I wanted an ER20 collet and none of the 1.2KW spindles had that.

    This VFD, while rated for 220 output, can be voltage limited to 110. I don't use that feature.

    I have to say, that I don't have a lot of experience with VFD's but this seems to work well and has a boatload of fault tolerance built in. Also, I am impressed with the amount of documentation available for it and it is all written in english not ingrish.

    https://www.automationdirect.com/adc...300a06p0s1nb20

    Last edited by maxspongebob; 04-01-2020 at 02:47 PM.


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    Default Re: What's the story on 1.5kW 110V VFDs?

    Quote Originally Posted by maxspongebob View Post
    I just purchased a WEG VFD from Automation Direct. I am very happy with it. It costs a bit more but I think it is worth it to buy quality products from a US corp.
    The price looks perfectly reasonable, considering I've seen people trying to sell similar size HY drives being for $180-200 after shipping. I'd seen a couple other recommendations for AD & the WEG units too, but couldn't find anything there in a 110/1.5, and I wasn't sure (ok, I guess I'm still not) how far (and in what direction(s)) I could get away with straying from that.

    I also got the RS-485 interface card to control it.
    That might not be a bad idea... although I don't think either of the software packages I'm using right now (or any of the grbl software I've seen) would have any support for it without a lot of struggle, so I'm probably better off waiting until I eventually get back to setting up the Gecko-based system on LinuxCNC.

    I am using it to run a 2.2KW 220V water cooled Spindle. The VFD is under rated for the motor, but I wanted an ER20 collet and none of the 1.2KW spindles had that.
    You sound like me. The 1.5kW is way more spindle than my machine needs, but everything smaller had ER11 and I wanted at least ER16. I really wanted ER20 for a surfacing mill, but that meant 2.2kW and aside from being utterly wasted, there was no way my gantry would've been happy swinging that much weight around.

    I'm curious, though... I was under the impression (and I hope someone here with an actual clue will correct me, since I'm probably wrong) that, while running a little spindle with a big VFD was acceptable (or even recommended), that a big spindle with a little VFD was a recipe for trouble and cooked electronics. How's it working out? If that weren't a concern - if the setup would actually work reliably (and more-or-less non-destructively), I could definitely live with a 25% power cut on a 1.1kW/1.5HP drive.

    This VFD, while rated for 220 output, can be voltage limited to 110. I don't use that feature.
    Now that's interesting. I pretty much stopped looking at Automation Direct after seeing that all of their drives were listed as 110V->220V. Apparently I didn't look closely enough.

    I have to say, that I don't have a lot of experience with VFD's
    This will be my third... but somehow I knew a whole hell of a lot more about them when I picked out my first & second.

    Also, I am impressed with the amount of documentation available for it and it is all written in english not ingrish.
    That is an impressive find... wonder if their support channels are as good. Although I hope you haven't had to avail yourself of them yet



    -Bats



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    Default Re: What's the story on 1.5kW 110V VFDs?

    Quote Originally Posted by maxspongebob View Post
    I just purchased a WEG VFD from Automation Direct. I am very happy with it. It costs a bit more but I think it is worth it to buy quality products from a US corp. I also got the RS-485 interface card to control it. I am using it to run a 2.2KW 220V water cooled Spindle. The VFD is under rated for the motor, but I wanted an ER20 collet and none of the 1.2KW spindles had that.

    This VFD, while rated for 220 output, can be voltage limited to 110. I don't use that feature.

    I have to say, that I don't have a lot of experience with VFD's but this seems to work well and has a boatload of fault tolerance built in. Also, I am impressed with the amount of documentation available for it and it is all written in english not ingrish.

    https://www.automationdirect.com/adc...300a06p0s1nb20
    But you can't run a 2.2Kw spindle with 120v and have a good result, so would be a pointless exercise

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: What's the story on 1.5kW 110V VFDs?

    Quote Originally Posted by batcrave View Post
    That sounds like a pretty good argument for not selling a model, I guess - although the nameplate on this one (see below) claims 13A. Based on that, my assumption was 120V*13A=1560W, and then they just go a little light on the output side to make up the efficiency loss. The "Rated Motor Current" parameter can't even be set above 7A (while it was paired w/an 8A spindle), which comes out around 1.3kW. As long no one does a head-to-head comparison with a spindle that's actually running on 1.5kW, everyone's happy (or at least I'm happy - the spindle's so over-matched for a little extrusion machine, I could take a pretty hefty power loss before it would start to hurt).

    Unless, of course, some or all of my assumptions and / or math are completely and utterly wrong.

    Which is entirely possible, and probably even likely, seeing as I really don't have any clue what I'm talking about.

    I do know that I was able to run it on the same 15A circuit as a "6.5HP" shopvac (speaking of debatable ratings) and the CNC's steppers (a 7A PSU) and only rarely trip a breaker. I'm assuming that's because I'm so far from stressing the motor, more than because the nameplates are that far out of touch with reality.


    What's the story on 1.5kW 110V VFDs?-img_20200330_203548-jpg What's the story on 1.5kW 110V VFDs?-img_20200330_203530-jpg


    Possibly. But I've grown quite attached to this water-cooled spindle over the past year, and between the speed control, ER16 collets, lack of blowing chips, and all that beautiful silence, I think giving it up now might be enough to make me cry.

    I have considered a 220V line on more than a few occasions, but the lack of empty slots in the box made things look a lot more involved (and, mostly, expensive), so for the moment I'm stuck on 120V.


    - Bats
    I would not count out that your spindle is damaged as well and yes I can tell you if you had it wired correct Input power and output plus and parameters you can fine that you set, so photos are important you could also use a 800W spindle if your machine is light weight and the 1.5Kw was to much 800W spindle would run on the same VFD Drive

    They can still run and not be wired correctly, did you have the spindle Ground connected and used shielded cable from the spindle to the VFD Drive

    The photo of your VFD Drive if not setup correct and current limited it could of tried to draw or put 13A into the spindle and to do that it would of be drawing up to 26A on the input power supply

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: What's the story on 1.5kW 110V VFDs?

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    But you can't run a 2.2Kw spindle with 120v and have a good result, so would be a pointless exercise
    That was sort of my understanding too - although it sounded like it's working for him, which I'm curious to hear more about.

    I would not count out that your spindle is damaged as well
    Ugh. That's something I'd been afraid to even ask about... but now that we've broached the subject, is there any decent way to test it without having another VFD to plug it into?

    and yes I can tell you if you had it wired correct Input power and output plus and parameters you can fine that you set, so photos are important
    Ok, I've got the parameters now - I can add photos a little later.

    PD001 = 1 * (for most of the year these were 0, while using the onboard pot
    PD002 = 1 * (see above)
    PD005 = 400 (this was the stock setting, although the manual lists the default as 50)
    PD006 = 2.5 (again, default)
    PD008 = 110 (and again, although the manual lists 220/380)
    PD009 = 14
    PD010 = 7
    PD041 = 08 (although I tried varying this in an unsuccessful attempt to eliminate the noise)
    PD070 = 1* (see above)
    PD072 = 400 (again, default but different than the manual)
    PD122 = null (manual says 150)
    PD141 = 110
    PD142 = 7 (the spindle nameplate is 8A, but 7 is the highest this setting will go)
    PD143 = 02
    PD144 = 1440
    PD171 = 7 (again, disagrees with the manual's 0)
    PD173 = 255 [fixed]
    PD174 = 7 [fixed]
    PD181 = 1.0
    PD182 = 18013


    you could also use a 800W spindle if your machine is light weight and the 1.5Kw was to much 800W spindle would run on the same VFD Drive
    If you can point me at an 800W spindle with an ER16 collet, I'll buy it tonight. At the time, though, I had trouble trouble even finding this one.


    They can still run and not be wired correctly, did you have the spindle Ground connected and used shielded cable from the spindle to the VFD Drive
    Yep - continuous-flex shielded automation cable, and I believe it was grounded at both ends (seeing as I found nothing but endless arguments over whether one end or both ends was The Only Correct Way, I finally just picked one) - but I'll try to cover that with the pictures in a little bit


    The photo of your VFD Drive if not setup correct and current limited it could of tried to draw or put 13A into the spindle and to do that it would of be drawing up to 26A on the input power supply
    If it were drawing 26A on a 15A circuit, wouldn't the breaker have tripped every time I tried to start it up?


    -Bats
    (pictures to follow shortly)



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    Default Re: What's the story on 1.5kW 110V VFDs?

    I am not running my 2.2Kw spindle on 120V. Mine is a 220V 400Hz 3 phase spindle. I am running it on 220 3 phase with 110 single phase line input to the VFD. The VFD does a step up of the voltage before sending it out to the motor.

    There is no problem running a higher rated motor with a lower rated VFD, you just can't do the reverse unless you can configure the VFD to limit it's output to the motor. Sure, I can't get 2.2KW out of the motor, but I never needed to do that. It's like using a 2 HP motor where a 1HP will do.



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    Default Re: What's the story on 1.5kW 110V VFDs?

    Here are the upper terminals - DCM jumpered to FOR, with ACM & VI going to GND & 0-10V on an Openbuilds BlackBox. J1 is set to VI.

    What's the story on 1.5kW 110V VFDs?-img_20200401_221036-jpg

    And here are the lower terminals. Hot & neutral to R & T, and the ground, along with the spindle's pin 4 (screwed to the spindle chassis) and cable shield (I was wrong before - the shield is only grounded at this end, not at the spindle), all piling up on pin 9. Then U, V, and W are, of course, the other three spindle pins.
    What's the story on 1.5kW 110V VFDs?-img_20200401_221347-jpg


    So.... how badly did I fail the test?


    [ edit: also, I'm reading ~0.8? across each pair of pins on the spindle, which I think means I didn't completely destroy the windings. I hope. ]

    -Bats

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails What's the story on 1.5kW 110V VFDs?-img_20200401_221036-jpg   What's the story on 1.5kW 110V VFDs?-img_20200401_221347-jpg  


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    Default Re: What's the story on 1.5kW 110V VFDs?

    Quote Originally Posted by maxspongebob View Post
    I am not running my 2.2Kw spindle on 120V. Mine is a 220V 400Hz 3 phase spindle. I am running it on 220 3 phase with 110 single phase line input to the VFD. The VFD does a step up of the voltage before sending it out to the motor.

    There is no problem running a higher rated motor with a lower rated VFD, you just can't do the reverse unless you can configure the VFD to limit it's output to the motor. Sure, I can't get 2.2KW out of the motor, but I never needed to do that. It's like using a 2 HP motor where a 1HP will do.
    There is a big problem running a higher amperage motor on a lower rated VFD Drive, it should always be the other way round having a higher rated VFD drive is what is recommended for single phase use

    No if you live in NA then your voltage is 120v not 110v and you are using a VFD Drive that has a step up transformer built in to give you 220V for your spindle, which is a better choice as long as you have enough amps on the input side, they work quite well but if you don't have the supply amps the spindle needs then it is pointless having the 2.2Kw spindle as you will get a better performance from a 220v 1.5Kw or even the 800w spindle

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: What's the story on 1.5kW 110V VFDs?

    Quote Originally Posted by batcrave View Post
    Here are the upper terminals - DCM jumpered to FOR, with ACM & VI going to GND & 0-10V on an Openbuilds BlackBox. J1 is set to VI.

    What's the story on 1.5kW 110V VFDs?-img_20200401_221036-jpg

    And here are the lower terminals. Hot & neutral to R & T, and the ground, along with the spindle's pin 4 (screwed to the spindle chassis) and cable shield (I was wrong before - the shield is only grounded at this end, not at the spindle), all piling up on pin 9. Then U, V, and W are, of course, the other three spindle pins.
    What's the story on 1.5kW 110V VFDs?-img_20200401_221347-jpg


    So.... how badly did I fail the test?


    [ edit: also, I'm reading ~0.8? across each pair of pins on the spindle, which I think means I didn't completely destroy the windings. I hope. ]

    -Bats
    It looks like you have it wired correctly input power is correct output power is correct, just the shield is not correct, but that was not what caucused any of the smoke

    The FOR and DCM should never be connected like that as that is unsafe, that can be a temporary hook up but must be switched On / Off with a Relay

    I will go through the Parameters but if this was all that was set then they are incorrect

    Yes that number for the spindle sounds Ok have you checked the 4th pin in the spindle connector Ground pin with your meter to see if it has continuity to the spindle body

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: What's the story on 1.5kW 110V VFDs?

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    There is at big problem running a higher amperage .-motor on a lower rated VFD Drive, it should always be the other way round having a higher rated VFD drive is what is recommended for single phase use
    This was the impression I'd gotten, but I'm not sure I'm clear on the reason. Is it just that it overtaxes the drive, or is there more to it?
    No if you live in NA then your voltage is 120v not 110v
    That's being a little pedantic, isn't it? 120V is nominal at best. Mine's 121.8V right now. A house I grew up in several towns over (and where I first learned to electrocute myself) was usually in the 108-114v range. It may be advertised as "120V", but calling it 110V or 115V would be just as accurate in practice.
    then it is pointless having the 2.2Kw spindle as you will get a better performance from a 220v 1.5Kw or even the 800w spindle
    I think the problem here was finding a 1.5kW spindle with the ER20 collet he wanted, or an 800W with the ER16 I wanted. I know I would've preferred a smaller spindle, but couldn't find one with any thing bigger than ER11. If there's another approach to this problem, I'd certainly be open to downgrading.
    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    It looks like. you have it wired correctly input power is correct output power is correct,
    Yay! I win!
    just the shield is not correct,
    Oh,Maybe I don't win So what did I get wrong with the shield? Should it not have been tied to the same ground? Should it have been grounded at both ends? Or just the fact that it leaves too much of the wire exposed?
    but that was not what caucused any of the smoke.
    Nope. That part's no mystery. The smoke came out when, after removing the metal cowl from the spindle plug to check the connections (not that I had any reason to suspect them, but I was grasping at straws), I replaced it crookedly and somehow shorted two of the pins.
    The FOR and DCM should never be connected like that as that is unsafe, that can be a temporary hook up but must be switched On / Off with a Relay
    That's good to know. I'd picked up that bit from another user on OpenBuilds - I'll have to see if I can find another way to implement it and then try to get them to fix their tutorial. Any chance you could explain just what the risk is?
    I will go through the Parameters but if this was all that was set then they are incorrect
    Can't say I'm entirely surprised - the manual was a little unclear or hard to decypher in parts, and left a bit of guesswork (and it's also possible my notes weren't entirely up to date). I'd be interested to know which I got wrong, though.
    Yes that number for the spindle sounds Ok have you checked the 4th pin in the spindle connector Ground pin with your meter to see if it has continuity to the spindle body
    It does. I hope it was supposed to - it came from the factory unattached, and I screwed it to the body inside the cap. - Bats



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    Default Re: What's the story on 1.5kW 110V VFDs?

    Quote Originally Posted by batcrave View Post
    This was the impression I'd gotten, but I'm not sure I'm clear on the reason. Is it just that it overtaxes the drive, or is there more to it? That's being a little pedantic, isn't it? 120V is nominal at best. Mine's 121.8V right now. A house I grew up in several towns over (and where I first learned to electrocute myself) was usually in the 108-114v range. It may be advertised as "120V", but calling it 110V or 115V would be just as accurate in practice. I think the problem here was finding a 1.5kW spindle with the ER20 collet he wanted, or an 800W with the ER16 I wanted. I know I would've preferred a smaller spindle, but couldn't find one with any thing bigger than ER11. If there's another approach to this problem, I'd certainly be open to downgrading. Yay! I win! Oh,Maybe I don't win So what did I get wrong with the shield? Should it not have been tied to the same ground? Should it have been grounded at both ends? Or just the fact that it leaves too much of the wire exposed? Nope. That part's no mystery. The smoke came out when, after removing the metal cowl from the spindle plug to check the connections (not that I had any reason to suspect them, but I was grasping at straws), I replaced it crookedly and somehow shorted two of the pins. That's good to know. I'd picked up that bit from another user on OpenBuilds - I'll have to see if I can find another way to implement it and then try to get them to fix their tutorial. Any chance you could explain just what the risk is? Can't say I'm entirely surprised - the manual was a little unclear or hard to decypher in parts, and left a bit of guesswork (and it's also possible my notes weren't entirely up to date). I'd be interested to know which I got wrong, though. It does. I hope it was supposed to - it came from the factory unattached, and I screwed it to the body inside the cap. - Bats
    No that is not pedantic the voltage in NA is 120v/240v for single phase check the electrical code it has been 120v/240v since the 60's and should always be called that, only the Chinese can call it 110v

    The spindle could start by itself while you are changing a cutter that is why it should never have a jumper when using a machine control even a switch between the to will make it safe although it is very simple to add a relay as well it's just a switch that you turn on from your control

    Yes they only fit what ER size that the spindle is capable of using that is why there is that problem if you want to run a 1/2" cutter then you need the Hp to run it and the power to drive it

    Your Parameters you got lucky with so they need to be corrected I have posted them thousands of times on the zone Don't blame the manual they are fine

    The Shield needs to be connected at Both Ends and direct Grounded like the attached

    Shorting out something like this, ( the plug ) is always going to smoke the IGBT's and the Zener's in that circuit, you don't have much room in those plugs and I wire them direct using a EMI Gland that eliminate any problem with these under rated plugs that come with these spindles Gland attached

    So what where the problems you where having before this happened most likely EMI noise because you don't have an EMI Power Filter on the input Power supply to the VFD Drive

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails What's the story on 1.5kW 110V VFDs?-grounding-shields-6-jpg   What's the story on 1.5kW 110V VFDs?-metal-gland-wire-restraint-png   What's the story on 1.5kW 110V VFDs?-shield-gland-cable-restraint-png   What's the story on 1.5kW 110V VFDs?-shield-clamp-3-png  

    What's the story on 1.5kW 110V VFDs?-grounding-shields-7-png   What's the story on 1.5kW 110V VFDs?-shield-grounding-png  
    Mactec54


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    Default Re: What's the story on 1.5kW 110V VFDs?

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    No that is not pedantic the voltage in NA is 120v/240v for single phase check the electrical code it has been 120v/240v since the 60's and should always be called that, only the Chinese can call it 110v
    Ok - I'm not about to argue it. All I know are some scattered tests from a couple old houses - and I try to avoid fights where I know I'm probably both wrong and likely to lose.

    (wow, the younger me would've hated me for saying that)

    (wow, I miss the younger me.)

    The spindle could start by itself while you are changing a cutter that is why it should never have a jumper when using a machine control even a switch between the to will make it safe
    Fair enough. Sounds like a pretty good reason not to use a jumper.

    although it is very simple to add a relay as well it's just a switch that you turn on from your control
    I think I've still got a relay output free on the controller, which would make things easy. Otherwise it may get a little complicated.

    Yes they only fit what ER size that the spindle is capable of using that is why there is that problem if you want to run a 1/2" cutter then you need the Hp to run it and the power to drive it
    Thus the problem.

    I can't speak for spongebob, but I wanted the larger collet for occasional (very) light-duty use of larger tools (things like resurfacing spoilboards) and for no-load items like edgefinders that are harder to find or simply unavailable with small shanks. Since no one makes a little spindle with a big collet - for exactly the reasons you mention - I was stuck getting something much larger and heavier than I really wanted. After working with it off & on for a year, though, I love it, even if the machine's too light to use any significant fraction of the available power,

    Your Parameters you got lucky with so they need to be corrected I have posted them thousands of times on the zone Don't blame the manual they are fine
    Now this I'm afraid I have to take some issue with. Those two statements can't both be true. If the manual were fine, thousands of people wouldn't have had to come here for you to tell them what the correct settings were. The fact is, it seems to almost completely overlook the model it was shipped with (or the entire 110V range), many of the listed defaults are wrong (if not impossible to set), and the writing tends toward vagueness and ambiguous translations. As foreign manuals go, it's not a bad manual by any stretch - I've struggled with far worse - but it's far from being a good one, and calling it "fine" is far too generous for something that's caused that many problems for that many people.

    But, manual aside...From what I've been able to gather (based largely on this post, and I hope you'll correct me if things have since changed) the main flaws in my settings were - aside from using 110V instead of 120V in a few places - mostly confined to unset/miss-set lower limits. Presumably my ass (or at least my spindle) was saved on that one by the fact that I don't think I ever ran below about 6-7k rpm, and never took a cut much below 10k - so the only time it tended to spend in the danger zone (cue Kenny Loggins) was during acceleration and braking.

    The only other outlier I noticed was pd144, which I'd incorrectly listed as 1440. That was actually the default (what good is taking notes if I can't read the damn things?), and I believe mine had been set correctly at 3000, as it did display rpm accurately (as confirmed with a tachometer) while I know that other settings resulted in wonky values.


    The Shield needs to be connected at Both Ends and direct Grounded like the attached
    Ahhh, yes. I remember realizing that waaay back when I was getting everything set up, then realizing it wouldn't work on the plastic case of the VFD and figuring it could wait until I put together the metal enclosure for it. Which, apparently, it was still waiting for at the time of death. Oops.

    Guess I'll add that to the shopping list along with the new VFD.

    Shorting out something like this, ( the plug ) is always going to smoke the IGBT's and the Zener's in that circuit, you don't have much room in those plugs and I wire them direct using a EMI Gland that eliminate any problem with these under rated plugs that come with these spindles Gland attached
    So if I read this right you're suggesting just removing the whole receptacle from the top of the spindle and replacing it with a gland? I generally like to keep things unpluggable (especially since I'm looking at moving the machine at least once and potentially rebuilding a portion of it some time this summer), in this case I'll definitely consider it.

    On a related note (if I can even ask this without a dozen experts suddenly jumping in and arguing back & forth for the next thirty pages) - what's your stance on the the question of whether to ground the shielding at one end or both ends?

    So what where the problems you where having before this happened most likely EMI noise because you don't have an EMI Power Filter on the input Power supply to the VFD Drive
    I'd believe that if the problem were just the overall noise level. But the problem I was trying to grapple with when I killed it was different.

    I started out the afternoon with everything working perfectly (the only problem being the lousy operator), but then, over the course of about three hours, the interference gradually ramped up.

    First the controller would randomly stop during toolpaths once in a while - although I could still engage & release feed hold to get it moving again...

    Then it was stopping more often and was less willing to resume....

    Then it would crap out almost as soon as the spindle started, and would show occasional noise (corrupted grbl status lines) in the log....

    Then, finally, it got to the point where it would start spewing noise in the log as soon as the spindle turned on.

    None of the wiring (VFD, spindle, motors, or control), had been changed in at least a week or so (when I set up remote control of the spindle & vacuum from the BlackBox), and, aside from the usual movement of the spindle, it hadn't been moved or even touched in a day or three.

    If I had any idea what would cause something like this, I'd feel a lot more comfortable about having to buy the same model again.

    (not that I really seem to have much choice, I guess)

    some how got a double post
    That makes it twice as informative!


    -purp



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    Default Re: What's the story on 1.5kW 110V VFDs?

    Quote Originally Posted by batcrave View Post
    Ok - I'm not about to argue it. All I know are some scattered tests from a couple old houses - and I try to avoid fights where I know I'm probably both wrong and likely to lose.

    (wow, the younger me would've hated me for saying that)

    (wow, I miss the younger me.)


    Fair enough. Sounds like a pretty good reason not to use a jumper.


    I think I've still got a relay output free on the controller, which would make things easy. Otherwise it may get a little complicated.


    Thus the problem.

    I can't speak for spongebob, but I wanted the larger collet for occasional (very) light-duty use of larger tools (things like resurfacing spoilboards) and for no-load items like edgefinders that are harder to find or simply unavailable with small shanks. Since no one makes a little spindle with a big collet - for exactly the reasons you mention - I was stuck getting something much larger and heavier than I really wanted. After working with it off & on for a year, though, I love it, even if the machine's too light to use any significant fraction of the available power,


    Now this I'm afraid I have to take some issue with. Those two statements can't both be true. If the manual were fine, thousands of people wouldn't have had to come here for you to tell them what the correct settings were. The fact is, it seems to almost completely overlook the model it was shipped with (or the entire 110V range), many of the listed defaults are wrong (if not impossible to set), and the writing tends toward vagueness and ambiguous translations. As foreign manuals go, it's not a bad manual by any stretch - I've struggled with far worse - but it's far from being a good one, and calling it "fine" is far too generous for something that's caused that many problems for that many people.

    But, manual aside...From what I've been able to gather (based largely on this post, and I hope you'll correct me if things have since changed) the main flaws in my settings were - aside from using 110V instead of 120V in a few places - mostly confined to unset/miss-set lower limits. Presumably my ass (or at least my spindle) was saved on that one by the fact that I don't think I ever ran below about 6-7k rpm, and never took a cut much below 10k - so the only time it tended to spend in the danger zone (cue Kenny Loggins) was during acceleration and braking.

    The only other outlier I noticed was pd144, which I'd incorrectly listed as 1440. That was actually the default (what good is taking notes if I can't read the damn things?), and I believe mine had been set correctly at 3000, as it did display rpm accurately (as confirmed with a tachometer) while I know that other settings resulted in wonky values.



    Ahhh, yes. I remember realizing that waaay back when I was getting everything set up, then realizing it wouldn't work on the plastic case of the VFD and figuring it could wait until I put together the metal enclosure for it. Which, apparently, it was still waiting for at the time of death. Oops.

    Guess I'll add that to the shopping list along with the new VFD.


    So if I read this right you're suggesting just removing the whole receptacle from the top of the spindle and replacing it with a gland? I generally like to keep things unpluggable (especially since I'm looking at moving the machine at least once and potentially rebuilding a portion of it some time this summer), in this case I'll definitely consider it.

    On a related note (if I can even ask this without a dozen experts suddenly jumping in and arguing back & forth for the next thirty pages) - what's your stance on the the question of whether to ground the shielding at one end or both ends?


    I'd believe that if the problem were just the overall noise level. But the problem I was trying to grapple with when I killed it was different.

    I started out the afternoon with everything working perfectly (the only problem being the lousy operator), but then, over the course of about three hours, the interference gradually ramped up.

    First the controller would randomly stop during toolpaths once in a while - although I could still engage & release feed hold to get it moving again...

    Then it was stopping more often and was less willing to resume....

    Then it would crap out almost as soon as the spindle started, and would show occasional noise (corrupted grbl status lines) in the log....

    Then, finally, it got to the point where it would start spewing noise in the log as soon as the spindle turned on.

    None of the wiring (VFD, spindle, motors, or control), had been changed in at least a week or so (when I set up remote control of the spindle & vacuum from the BlackBox), and, aside from the usual movement of the spindle, it hadn't been moved or even touched in a day or three.

    If I had any idea what would cause something like this, I'd feel a lot more comfortable about having to buy the same model again.

    (not that I really seem to have much choice, I guess)


    That makes it twice as informative!


    -purp
    Definitely was a noise problem you where having a EMI Power Filter closely mounted to the VFD Drive input power connection would most likely have solved all your problems

    Why did it start to happen after it had run for some time without it, Noise saturation and no where for it to go poorly Grounded system shield only half Grounded at ( 1 ) end did not help just look in any VFD Drive manual you will find the correct way to Ground your cable shields I will post one for you

    Just basic wiring practices and looking through VFD drive Manuals will tell you that you need to wire VFD Drives correctly or EMI noise will kill everything around that is connected to the same power system 120v is even worse than 240v

    In very exceptional cases the shield may be terminated at one end only purely analog systems with no digital components

    Cable shields terminated at one end provide only electrostatic protection against low-frequency, capacitive coupled interference and emission

    Here is a EMI filter that I recommend and that most use TDK Lambada RSEN-2030L

    Here is a manual if you have a problem with this let me know what you have a problem with, none of these VFD Drives come with the correct Parameters set even the seller's that say they have been preset are just a sales poly to sell more post what you come up with as these need to be set before you power up your spindle, Hint you are missing some major Parameters

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails What's the story on 1.5kW 110V VFDs?-shield-grounding-vfd-drive-png   What's the story on 1.5kW 110V VFDs?-shield-grounding-plate-clamps-1-png   What's the story on 1.5kW 110V VFDs?-grounding-shields-1-vfd-jpg  
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Mactec54


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    Default Re: What's the story on 1.5kW 110V VFDs?

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    Definitely was a noise problem you where having a EMI Power Filter closely mounted to the VFD Drive input power connection would most likely have solved all your problems
    Well, I guess I'll find out soon enough. It looks like I'll be ordering a new HY drive and the filter to go with it - still need to find a enclosure (any recommendations, beyond the manual's specs for size & free space?) and some of the smaller bits, like the glands and a fan.

    Is there anything else I should be adding? The manual says "Be sure to install a Non-Fuse Breaker (NFB) between the power supply and the input terminals (R, S, T). (If using a ground fault circuit interrupter, please choose one corresponding to high frequency" but doesn't give any specifics (the one other mention says "Refer to the related list", which I can't seem to find any trace of) and also mentions a contactor - any recommendations for either of those?


    Why did it start to happen after it had run for some time without it, Noise saturation and no where for it to go poorly Grounded system shield only half Grounded at ( 1 ) end did not help
    I suppose I phrased that poorly... Why would it happen after working for days, weeks, or months (including nightly shutdowns) before the problem manifested, and why, once it did start, did the the noise immediately start again the next day, after spending the night powered down?

    I'm not saying the ground wasn't partly or fully at fault, or that it wasn't noise saturation - I'm just trying to understand how it could be the case.

    just look in any VFD Drive manual you will find the correct way to Ground your cable shields I will post one for you
    I appreciate the link - it's quicker to search through a PDF than the paper copy. Even with that aid, though, I can only find one very brief mention of shielding anywhere in it: "It is better to use shielded wire or wire and conduit for power cord and ground the shielded layer or two ends of wire conduit." - which is quite ambiguous as to whether the wire should be grounded at both ends, or if that's only essential for conduit.

    Similarly, the manual from my Leeson Speedmaster SM-series drive (while, like your images, it does point out that my clampless technique for grounding the shield was a miserable hack) makes no mention of grounding the far end, and, when discussing control wiring (they don't comment one way or another on the power wiring), even explicitly says"Use twisted wires or shielded cable grounded at the drive chassis ONLY" (capitalization theirs).

    When I complained about the manual several posts back, it wasn't an attempt to deflect responsibility (I know I did a sloppy install - that part ain't the manual's fault). It was because the manual just plain isn't clear on a wide variety of topics. This is only one of them, which is why I'm trying to figure out what to do differently this time around.

    Just basic wiring practices and looking through VFD drive Manuals will tell you that you need to wire VFD Drives correctly or EMI noise will kill everything around that is connected to the same power system 120v is even worse than 240v
    You'll hear no argument from me on that one.

    In very exceptional cases the shield may be terminated at one end only purely analog systems with no digital components

    Cable shields terminated at one end provide only electrostatic protection against low-frequency, capacitive coupled interference and emission
    Any chance you could help me understand how this compares with the statement in the Leeson manual? I feel like every time the topic of shielding comes up, I end up in the middle of people (or manuals) very loudly and adamantly telling me two very different things, and I'm having a lot of trouble understanding either what I should be listening to, or how the two sides actually relate.

    Here is a EMI filter that I recommend and that most use TDK Lambada RSEN-2030L
    Fantastic. It's on my shopping list now & I'll probably put in the order tomorrow. Much easier than shopping for the VFD.

    Here is a manual if you have a problem with this let me know what you have a problem with, none of these VFD Drives come with the correct Parameters set even the seller's that say they have been preset are just a sales poly to sell more
    There were no such promises or expectations with this one. The values I've referred to as "defaults" are because they were either those specified by the manual, and/or those remaining after a pd013 reset.

    post what you come up with as these need to be set before you power up your spindle, Hint you are missing some major Parameters
    You keep telling me there are parameters wrong or missing, but haven't yet given me any hint which parameters.

    Just to clear this up once and for all (and do so without potentially risking a second drive with wrong settings), here's the full list, based on your values posted in another thread ( https://www.cnczone.com/forums/chine...ml#post2004460 ).


    Param Your
    Value
    My
    Value
    pd000
    pd001
    pd002
    pd003
    pd004
    pd005
    pd006
    pd007
    pd008
    pd009
    pd010
    pd011

    pd014
    pd015

    pd070
    pd072
    pd073

    pd141
    pd142
    pd143
    pd144
    0
    0
    0
    400
    400
    400
    2.5
    20
    120
    15
    8
    120

    10+
    10+

    0
    400
    120

    120
    7
    2
    3000
    0
    0 / 1 *
    0 / 1 *
    400
    400
    400
    2.5
    .50 (default)
    110
    14 (default)
    7 (default)
    0

    20 (default)
    20 (default)

    0 / 1 *
    400
    0

    110
    7
    02
    3000
    * = varied depending on whether I was using the onboard pot, or the terminals.

    As I'd said earlier, the lower limits are obviously wrong, and I was probably only saved by the fact that I never had any reason to run the spindle at low speeds outside of acceleration & braking. I'd used 110V instead of 120V in several places, but I don't imagine that's what you consider major. A few of the others I'd left off the initial list because they either didn't seem related (and I've still left off about 230 different params) or because I hadn't touched them - presumably it's the latter you were worried about.

    So are there any other parameters missing from that list that I need to deal with? And do I have any of your values wrong?

    -Bats



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    Default Re: What's the story on 1.5kW 110V VFDs?

    Quote Originally Posted by batcrave View Post
    Well, I guess I'll find out soon enough. It looks like I'll be ordering a new HY drive and the filter to go with it - still need to find a enclosure (any recommendations, beyond the manual's specs for size & free space?) and some of the smaller bits, like the glands and a fan.

    Is there anything else I should be adding? The manual says "Be sure to install a Non-Fuse Breaker (NFB) between the power supply and the input terminals (R, S, T). (If using a ground fault circuit interrupter, please choose one corresponding to high frequency" but doesn't give any specifics (the one other mention says "Refer to the related list", which I can't seem to find any trace of) and also mentions a contactor - any recommendations for either of those?



    I suppose I phrased that poorly... Why would it happen after working for days, weeks, or months (including nightly shutdowns) before the problem manifested, and why, once it did start, did the the noise immediately start again the next day, after spending the night powered down?

    I'm not saying the ground wasn't partly or fully at fault, or that it wasn't noise saturation - I'm just trying to understand how it could be the case.


    I appreciate the link - it's quicker to search through a PDF than the paper copy. Even with that aid, though, I can only find one very brief mention of shielding anywhere in it: "It is better to use shielded wire or wire and conduit for power cord and ground the shielded layer or two ends of wire conduit." - which is quite ambiguous as to whether the wire should be grounded at both ends, or if that's only essential for conduit.

    Similarly, the manual from my Leeson Speedmaster SM-series drive (while, like your images, it does point out that my clampless technique for grounding the shield was a miserable hack) makes no mention of grounding the far end, and, when discussing control wiring (they don't comment one way or another on the power wiring), even explicitly says"Use twisted wires or shielded cable grounded at the drive chassis ONLY" (capitalization theirs).

    When I complained about the manual several posts back, it wasn't an attempt to deflect responsibility (I know I did a sloppy install - that part ain't the manual's fault). It was because the manual just plain isn't clear on a wide variety of topics. This is only one of them, which is why I'm trying to figure out what to do differently this time around.


    You'll hear no argument from me on that one.


    Any chance you could help me understand how this compares with the statement in the Leeson manual? I feel like every time the topic of shielding comes up, I end up in the middle of people (or manuals) very loudly and adamantly telling me two very different things, and I'm having a lot of trouble understanding either what I should be listening to, or how the two sides actually relate.


    Fantastic. It's on my shopping list now & I'll probably put in the order tomorrow. Much easier than shopping for the VFD.


    There were no such promises or expectations with this one. The values I've referred to as "defaults" are because they were either those specified by the manual, and/or those remaining after a pd013 reset.


    You keep telling me there are parameters wrong or missing, but haven't yet given me any hint which parameters.

    Just to clear this up once and for all (and do so without potentially risking a second drive with wrong settings), here's the full list, based on your values posted in another thread ( https://www.cnczone.com/forums/chine...ml#post2004460 ).


    Param Your
    Value
    My
    Value
    pd000
    pd001
    pd002
    pd003
    pd004
    pd005
    pd006
    pd007
    pd008
    pd009
    pd010
    pd011

    pd014
    pd015

    pd070
    pd072
    pd073

    pd141
    pd142
    pd143
    pd144
    0
    0
    0
    400
    400
    400
    2.5
    20
    120
    15
    8
    120

    10+
    10+

    0
    400
    120

    120
    7
    2
    3000
    0
    0 / 1 *
    0 / 1 *
    400
    400
    400
    2.5
    .50 (default)
    110
    14 (default)
    7 (default)
    0

    20 (default)
    20 (default)

    0 / 1 *
    400
    0

    110
    7
    02
    3000
    * = varied depending on whether I was using the onboard pot, or the terminals.

    As I'd said earlier, the lower limits are obviously wrong, and I was probably only saved by the fact that I never had any reason to run the spindle at low speeds outside of acceleration & braking. I'd used 110V instead of 120V in several places, but I don't imagine that's what you consider major. A few of the others I'd left off the initial list because they either didn't seem related (and I've still left off about 230 different params) or because I hadn't touched them - presumably it's the latter you were worried about.

    So are there any other parameters missing from that list that I need to deal with? And do I have any of your values wrong?

    -Bats
    This is what you posted which is clearly incorrect and what I was referring too, not what you have just posted after your adjustment, you seem to have some confusion with the voltage if your spindle is rated at 110v then your Parameters need to be set to that 110v, 120v only refers to the NA single phase voltage not the motor voltage the VFD Drive has to drive, ( the 2 voltages have no relationship ) one is the supply the other is corrected in the VFD Drive to suit what it is driving

    You have a misconception of the Parameters as being Default all VFD Drives come with a preset configuration of 50/60 Hz none will ever have a default of 400Hz set, so when a Parameter is set by someone and you do a Reset not all Parameters will Reset to the Factory settings that is why you still saw some Parameters set at 400Hz and though in your mind that they where default when they would not of been

    Is the lesson manual referring to your application post the manual you can attach it here

    PD003
    PD004
    Where both missing from what you posted both of these are important that if not set correctly can cause damage to the drive or spindle

    PD011=120 needs to be set
    PD173=120 needs to be set

    Stall protection needs to be set
    Over current needs to be set

    This is what you posted in your original post

    PD001 = 1 * (for most of the year these were 0, while using the onboard pot
    PD002 = 1 * (see above)
    PD005 = 400 (this was the stock setting, although the manual lists the default as 50)
    PD006 = 2.5 (again, default)
    PD008 = 110 (and again, although the manual lists 220/380)
    PD009 = 14
    PD010 = 7
    PD041 = 08 (although I tried varying this in an unsuccessful attempt to eliminate the noise)
    PD070 = 1* (see above)
    PD072 = 400 (again, default but different than the manual)
    PD122 = null (manual says 150)
    PD141 = 110
    PD142 = 7 (the spindle nameplate is 8A, but 7 is the highest this setting will go)
    PD143 = 02
    PD144 = 1440
    PD171 = 7 (again, disagrees with the manual's 0)
    PD173 = 255 [fixed]
    PD174 = 7 [fixed]
    PD181 = 1.0
    PD182 = 18013

    Mactec54


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