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  1. #81
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    Default Re: Vfd/spindle speed help.

    Quote Originally Posted by ericks View Post
    The only way to know what the exact speed of the motor is related to what the drive output Hz is is to measure it with a tacho....i used my tacho on my Hertz spindle motor. It's speeds from standstill all the way to 18000 Rpm was very close to the applied Hz from the drive. What i mean is that when the drive indicated 150Hz i expected 9000 Rpm, and it was just about 9000 Rpm no load. At 300 Hz it ran at the expected 18000 Rpm and many other points/values. I am not sure how close the spindle motor you using will be to its indicated speed.

    Coming back to parameter P212 in your case...believe me its not a critical parameter in your case, unless you possibly add a speed feedback from your spindle motor. There is no way how the ac drive would know at what speed your motor is turning unless it receives a speed pulse. I am not saying you should not set it.....but according to your manual the maximum value you can set in P212 is 6000....and your motor speed is 24000. So even if you want you can't input the correct value. The danfoss manual i just pulled out of my filing cabinet allows up to 60 000 Rpm motor speed to be inputted. So when i load all your motor settings in this drive then you should get the correct motor rpm displayed on the drive.....but again its only a calculated value cause the drive does not know the real speed of the motor

    The drive does know what the speed should be, by what parameters are set 2 Pole 120Hz and 400Hz tells the drive CPU what speed to expect the spindle to run at, it does not need any feed back from the spindle to do this just the same as using a VFD Drive in Vector mode for torque control

    We already know P212 appears to have a max setting of 6,000 but unless he tries to input 24,000 we will never know if it will or not set to 24,000, this Parameter is for the motor rated RPM but is not a must set Parameter this is a Parameter that he can play with as it is not a critical Parameter

    His main problem though is not having P100 and P101 set as I posted

    Mactec54


  2. #82
    ericks
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    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    The drive does know what the speed should be, by what parameters are set 2 Pole 120Hz and 400Hz tells the drive CPU what speed to expect the spindle to run at, it does not need any feed back from the spindle to do this just the same as using a VFD Drive in Vector mode for torque control

    We already know P212 appears to have a max setting of 6,000 but unless he tries to input 24,000 we will never know if it will or not set to 24,000, this Parameter is for the motor rated RPM but is not a must set Parameter this is a Parameter that he can play with as it is not a critical Parameter

    His main problem though is not having P100 and P101 set as I posted
    I did not say the drive does not know what the motor speed should be.... I said the drive does not know what the motor is actually spinning at. It also only know what the speed should be by what you tell it in the relevant parameters.



  3. #83
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    Default Re: Vfd/spindle speed help.

    Quote Originally Posted by ericks View Post
    I did not say the drive does not know what the motor speed should be.... I said the drive does not know what the motor is actually spinning at. It also only know what the speed should be by what you tell it in the relevant parameters.
    This is what I was referring to There is no way how the ac drive would know at what speed your motor is turning unless it receives a speed pulse. it does not need a speed pulse to control or know the RPM , most good VFD Drives can control the motor speed +/- 5 RPM without an Encoder, so the RPM can be known just by what Parameter's have been set Plus / Minus a few RPM , as you said a tachometer is needed if you think you have a RPM problem, but for most this is never a problem

    The set V/F ratio is what controls the speed this is linear unless you throw in some extra voltage for added torque at lower speeds

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Vfd/spindle speed help.

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    No you are getting confused, the Parameters that are set, for the motor spec's are what makes everything work , what you see in the display is no indication that the motor is doing what it should be

    Did you do both of these Parameters as they work together you need to check as the pot won't control correct unless both of these are set I added another Parameter P801 also


    P100=400
    P101=0

    P801=0
    Ok this is done but p101=0 made it go straight to 400hz full speed and no control from the pot. So I changed it back.to default - 3
    I already had p100=400
    changed p801 to 0
    Changing p212=24000 doesn't seem to be correct, I know it is only a reading but upon hitting run it goes to over 10000rpm and do not believe that is what actual rpm is so I have put it back to 14000 for now until I get a tacho onto it, which will hopefully arrive sometime this week.



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    Default Re: Vfd/spindle speed help.

    Quote Originally Posted by BLarks View Post
    Ok this is done but p101=0 made it go straight to 400hz full speed and no control from the pot. So I changed it back.to default - 3
    I already had p100=400
    changed p801 to 0
    Changing p212=24000 doesn't seem to be correct, I know it is only a reading but upon hitting run it goes to over 10000rpm and do not believe that is what actual rpm is so I have put it back to 14000 for now until I get a tacho onto it, which will hopefully arrive sometime this week.
    So when you did P0101 it did go to max RPM but had no control with the Pot, Check if the speed works with the UP / Down Keys P101=4 for this, you should of had full Pot control once those Parameters where set

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Vfd/spindle speed help.

    Blarks

    Check that the J2 Switch / Jumper is in the correct position

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Vfd/spindle speed help.-j2-switch-png  
    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Vfd/spindle speed help.

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    So when you did P0101 it did go to max RPM but had no control with the Pot, Check if the speed works with the UP / Down Keys P101=4 for this, you should of had full Pot control once those Parameters where set
    Thanks mactec for the help, Ok tried again and yes it goes straight to full speed, BUT, if I hold the down for a couple of seconds the speed goes down and once at min rpm it will remain at min while cycling run/stop. If i power down the vfd then up again it is reset, goes back to full speed hitting run. Is using the buttons how speed should be controlled? Seems a cumbersome way to do it as it takes some time to get from min to max to min.
    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    Blarks

    Check that the J2 Switch / Jumper is in the correct position
    This was a switch (not a traditional style of jumper) that was set to V so I changed it to I so hoping that is correct. Didn't see any notable difference. Is this the rfi jumper?



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    Default Re: Vfd/spindle speed help.

    Quote Originally Posted by BLarks View Post
    Thanks mactec for the help, Ok tried again and yes it goes straight to full speed, BUT, if I hold the down for a couple of seconds the speed goes down and once at min rpm it will remain at min while cycling run/stop. If i power down the vfd then up again it is reset, goes back to full speed hitting run. Is using the buttons how speed should be controlled? Seems a cumbersome way to do it as it takes some time to get from min to max to min.

    This was a switch (not a traditional style of jumper) that was set to V so I changed it to I so hoping that is correct. Didn't see any notable difference. Is this the rfi jumper?
    The switch is to choose between the terminal Remote control or AVI an the Keypad something does not seem right with the Pot control as it should of worked with those settings try the pot now with the different settings in P0101 you have to get the combination correct for the pot to work between J2 and P0101 The pot should work with these 3 Parameters so try now that you moved J2 with P101= 0 1 or 3 it should work with all 3 Parameters

    Is P102=0 ?? You need to check this and P801=0

    What do you have these Parameters set to

    P111=??
    P112=??
    P113=??
    P114=120

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Vfd/spindle speed help.

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    The switch is to choose between the terminal Remote control or AVI an the Keypad something does not seem right with the Pot control as it should of worked with those settings try the pot now with the different settings in P0101 you have to get the combination correct for the pot to work between J2 and P0101 The pot should work with these 3 Parameters so try now that you moved J2 with P101= 0 1 or 3 it should work with all 3 Parameters

    Is P102=0 ?? You need to check this and P801=0

    What do you have these Parameters set to

    P111=??
    P112=??
    P113=??
    P114=120
    P102=0
    P801=0
    P111=15
    P112=2.5
    P113=8
    P114=1.2 this cannot be set to 120 max is 2.5
    With the above settings, j2 set to I and
    P101=0 and P101=1 no pot control and full speed on initial power up and hitting run. up/down arrows work
    P101=3 starts at minimum rpm, pot control but no up/down arrow control

    With J2 on V
    P102=0
    P801=0
    P111=15
    P112=2.5
    P113=8
    P114=1.2
    P101=3 starts at minimum rpm, pot control but no up/down arrow control
    P101=1 no control from pot or arrows
    P101=0 up/down arrow control, no pot control, full speed after initial power on and run
    So basically the same whether J2 is set to V or I



  10. #90
    ericks
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    Default Re: Vfd/spindle speed help.

    Hi, what issue do you still have with the drive setup?



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    Quote Originally Posted by ericks View Post
    Hi, what issue do you still have with the drive setup?
    I am not sure at the moment as I have been following mactec's setup parameters and some of the settings are not working as he expected so waiting his reply to my post above. still waiting on tacho so I'm unsure of spindle actual speed.



  12. #92
    ericks
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    Default Re: Vfd/spindle speed help.

    Initially we had an issue with the displayed speed....not the actual output hz of the drive. I say keep everything like you had it before then confirm your speeds when you get your tacho. If your speed is not linear then we can look at trying to fix that



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    Quote Originally Posted by ericks View Post
    Initially we had an issue with the displayed speed....not the actual output hz of the drive. I say keep everything like you had it before then confirm your speeds when you get your tacho. If your speed is not linear then we can look at trying to fix that
    Yep I think that is the best but nothing wrong with getting everything else right and as I'm new to the whole thing, any help from you guys is much appreciated and hopefully next time I will have more of an understanding on how to set up a vfd.



  14. #94
    ericks
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    Default Re: Vfd/spindle speed help.

    Quote Originally Posted by BLarks View Post
    Yep I think that is the best but nothing wrong with getting everything else right and as I'm new to the whole thing, any help from you guys is much appreciated and hopefully next time I will have more of an understanding on how to set up a vfd.
    Of course nothing wrong with that



  15. #95
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    Default Re: Vfd/spindle speed help.

    Quote Originally Posted by BLarks View Post
    Yep I think that is the best but nothing wrong with getting everything else right and as I'm new to the whole thing, any help from you guys is much appreciated and hopefully next time I will have more of an understanding on how to set up a vfd.
    That would only happen if you had the same VFD Drive, they are all different, but trying these Different Parameters is good as you will get a better understanding of the VFD Drive you have

    Your drive seems to have some of the Parameters auto ranging, which means each parameter that is set is relying on another Parameter to be set for it to work correct

    All you main Basic Parameters where set from the beginning, it's just a matter of trying these others to see if they will take a number once something else is set

    J2=I ( this should be ( I ) as you are not using AVI )

    So P101 is working as per the manual

    P100=400
    P101=3 ( If you use 4 That would give you the UP/Down Key Use And 3 is For Pot Use )

    So try this to see if you can change this Parameter, This is a new one that you have not adjusted before, then we can look at others that are related to this Parameter, this will keep the V/F linear, if we can't set it, just set it at it's max Default if it can't be changed

    P112=140 ( Mid Frequency )

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Vfd/spindle speed help.

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    That would only happen if you had the same VFD Drive, they are all different, but trying these Different Parameters is good as you will get a better understanding of the VFD Drive you have

    Your drive seems to have some of the Parameters auto ranging, which means each parameter that is set is relying on another Parameter to be set for it to work correct

    All you main Basic Parameters where set from the beginning, it's just a matter of trying these others to see if they will take a number once something else is set

    J2=I ( this should be ( I ) as you are not using AVI )

    So P101 is working as per the manual

    P100=400
    P101=3 ( If you use 4 That would give you the UP/Down Key Use And 3 is For Pot Use )

    So try this to see if you can change this Parameter, This is a new one that you have not adjusted before, then we can look at others that are related to this Parameter, this will keep the V/F linear, if we can't set it, just set it at it's max Default if it can't be changed

    P112=140 ( Mid Frequency )
    No definitely helping me understand more about this drive although I'm still a little unsure exactly what some of them are doing, but really haven't had much time to sit down and review everything, will do over the weekend.

    Ok have now got
    J2=I

    P100=400 Already had this though

    P101=3 pot working starts at minimum rpm

    P112=140 This seems to have lowered start rpm as it sounds different.

    I am hoping tacho has arrived today and can get a rough idea of what spindle is doing.



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    Default Re: Vfd/spindle speed help.

    Quote Originally Posted by BLarks View Post
    No definitely helping me understand more about this drive although I'm still a little unsure exactly what some of them are doing, but really haven't had much time to sit down and review everything, will do over the weekend.

    Ok have now got
    J2=I

    P100=400 Already had this though

    P101=3 pot working starts at minimum rpm

    P112=140 This seems to have lowered start rpm as it sounds different.

    I am hoping tacho has arrived today and can get a rough idea of what spindle is doing.

    Yes P100 was one of the main Parameters I had you set

    Ok now that you where able to set P112 you can now try and set these

    P111=85.5

    P112=140

    P113=69

    P114=120

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Vfd/spindle speed help.

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    Yes P100 was one of the main Parameters I had you set

    Ok now that you where able to set P112 you can now try and set these

    P111=85.5

    P112=140

    P113=69

    P114=120
    Ok settings changed. My ebay tacho has arrived and to my surprise it seems to be fairly accurate, give or take a few rpm, within 50 to 100 rpm i would say. I had tested it before I changed to the above settings and anything over 10000rpm was reading pretty good but below this and the reading was not coinciding with the vfd reading, after the above settings change was getting far more accurate between tacho and vfd readout. Although it does have a slightly different sound when first spooling up. So I would assume that we are on the right track, no?

    On a side note (and a bonus) with the cheap ebay tacho seeming to be fairly accurate for what it is I now have something to check head speeds on my rc helicopters



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    Default Re: Vfd/spindle speed help.

    Quote Originally Posted by BLarks View Post
    Ok settings changed. My ebay tacho has arrived and to my surprise it seems to be fairly accurate, give or take a few rpm, within 50 to 100 rpm i would say. I had tested it before I changed to the above settings and anything over 10000rpm was reading pretty good but below this and the reading was not coinciding with the vfd reading, after the above settings change was getting far more accurate between tacho and vfd readout. Although it does have a slightly different sound when first spooling up. So I would assume that we are on the right track, no?

    On a side note (and a bonus) with the cheap ebay tacho seeming to be fairly accurate for what it is I now have something to check head speeds on my rc helicopters
    So you are saying you where able to set all 4 of these parameters, as the P114 would not set before??? as I said all of these 4 Parameters work together on your VFD so if ( 1 ) is not set then the others will not set also, ( Important if you change any of these from the numbers I gave you, they will all have to be recalculated ) So for or now you have all the parameters set for normal operation except for playing with the P212

    So revisit P212 now and see if it does any changes start with 6,000 and then 24,000 and see if either make any difference to the speed accuracy

    One thing to watch for is over heating

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Vfd/spindle speed help.

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    So you are saying you where able to set all 4 of these parameters, as the P114 would not set before??? as I said all of these 4 Parameters work together on your VFD so if ( 1 ) is not set then the others will not set also, ( Important if you change any of these from the numbers I gave you, they will all have to be recalculated ) So for or now you have all the parameters set for normal operation except for playing with the P212

    So revisit P212 now and see if it does any changes start with 6,000 and then 24,000 and see if either make any difference to the speed accuracy

    One thing to watch for is over heating
    Thanks mactec, yep I had thought maybe I had done something wrong before but yes now 114 was able to be changed. The vfd readout for rpm seems to match the tacho so do you think I still need to alter P212?

    I will try it at as you suggest anyway to see what happens and give it some runtime on the bench. I had run it before for 20 min at about half speed and there was no heat issue but will test again.

    EDIT - with p212=6000 vfd says 4800 but tacho says 7150 and P212=24000 is way off as well. So at the moment 14000 seems to be pretty close.

    EDIT No.2 Bench run test
    10 min @ 20k warm but not hot
    10 min @24k warm but not hot
    10 min @13k warm but not hot.
    I think the temps are safe, under load I would assume it will most likely run a little hotter, but for an air cooled spindle it seems ok temp wise.
    Guess it should be ok to go and mount it up.

    Last edited by BLarks; 02-22-2019 at 05:52 PM.


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Vfd/spindle speed help.

Vfd/spindle speed help.