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Thread: How do I setup a 2.2kw spindle so iy could be indexed and held in that position?

  1. #21
    Member mactec54's Avatar
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    Default Re: How do I setup a 2.2kw spindle so iy could be indexed and held in that position?

    Quote Originally Posted by allaces View Post
    Mactec54,

    Using an auxiliary stepper motor to do the indexing was something I considered before reading your post, but I thought that might be ANOTHER one of my bad ideas. Now that you basically confirmed that this would be a reasonable option...
    - I can use the 220V 3 HP VFD I already have
    - buy a cheap 3 phase motor for the variable spindle speed drive (Good 1 to 2 HP 3 phase motors are cheap on eBay)
    - and use a Nema 34 and driver (which I also already have) for indexing! Just engage when needed!

    I think this is the cheapest and easiest option for me to understand.
    I've previously converted my lathe and mill/drill to CNC so I'm sure I could cope with doing what you suggested.

    Thank you Mactec54!

    I was thinking of using a 12VDC automotive air conditioner mag clutch for engaging/disengaging the stepper.
    What do you think?

    This indexing solution could also help others with lean budgets

    Ray
    It's actually quite a common practice, being a lathe 3hp would be good for your R8 spindle size, the mag clutch should work well you want to plan a disc brake as well to lock/ hold the spindle position when milling and drill Etc.

    When looking for a motor look for inverter duty these a built for VFD Drive use and last a whole lot longer than a regular AC 3 Ph motor, they are out there and at good prices sometimes

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: How do I setup a 2.2kw spindle so iy could be indexed and held in that position?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Dawson View Post
    Here is one in Langley. $175. Looks like these guys have a lot of motors, looks like a used industrial equipment seller. Might be worth chatting with them, their phone is listed at the bottom of the ad

    https://vancouver.craigslist.org/rds...817156914.html

    The small (<5hp) Baldor motors are rated at 6000 RPM absolute maximum.
    Not all of them only some models have the 6,000 RPM rating washdown motors mostly and they can go more I have run them over 8,000 RPM without any problems

    Mactec54


  3. #23
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    Default Re: How do I setup a 2.2kw spindle so iy could be indexed and held in that position?

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    It's actually quite a common practice, being a lathe 3hp would be good for your R8 spindle size, the mag clutch should work well you want to plan a disc brake as well to lock/ hold the spindle position when milling and drill Etc.

    When looking for a motor look for inverter duty these a built for VFD Drive use and last a whole lot longer than a regular AC 3 Ph motor, they are out there and at good prices sometimes
    I got more questions for you!

    I'm looking at incorporating a brake as you suggested...
    I'm thinking that a "second mag clutch" would do it... they are CHEAP and easy to modify for my need.
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/AC-A-C-Comp...1/223097334901
    Plus they are both 12 volt (which I'd be already using) and could easily made to engage at the end of each index with 10 HP of resistance. Talk about overkill! No need for hydraulics or other mechanical actuators of any type.

    Would this motor be a good choice?
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/CEM-Rolled-...e/323289273721

    You indicated 3HP... so am I wasting my time looking at 2HP?

    In your opinion... what is the lowest RPM that a 3HP 3600 RPM motor could run at and still produce enough useful torque when geared or setup to run at 5,000 RPM?
    2" diameter steel shafts are probably the largest diameter I'd be machining on this machine.
    Would a 3HP 3600 RPM motor be capable and reasonable to machine that considering that my setup would be basically direct drive?

    If I don't buy a new motor... what should I look for on a nameplate to indicate that it is "inverter duty"?

    Generally speaking... do you think I could efficiently run the average VFD controlled 3600 RPM motor at 5000 RPM.... or would gearing it up be better?
    I'll be using gears anyway, so which way would give the best end performance?
    It's my feeling that I will loose valuable torque either way.


    This is off topic... but I should probably elaborate a little on the R8 spindle I mentioned in the thread.
    The spindle is actually going to have a #5MT nose like my converted lathe has "without" the D1-4 section. This gives me a decent "hole thru spindle" for the size of lathe I'm designing. I may add a thread on the spindle nose for custom drive plates, etc... and the following sleeves allow me to use all the collet types I have and more...

    I already use the following sleeves on my converted lathe, and these sleeves will easily handle the 5000 RPM on my new one.

    #5MT to R8 (this one is an addition and I need to make it) Can't find a store bought one...
    #5MT to ER40
    #5MT to 5C
    ##5MT to 4" 3 Jaw
    #5MT to 4" 4 jaw

    ... all of which I already have the tooling for, and thus provide me with lots of versatility for the type of work I want/need/do.

    And... I could easily make custom #5MT to ??? for any other needs I may have.

    The reason for making my own CNC is mainly for the speed and accuracy to machine smaller parts. My Manual lathe (which I converted), can still operate in Manual and/or in CNC mode, but it can only handle 2000 RPM max. Plus... by making my own CNC, I can avoid all the complex mechanical problems/issues associated with a manual machine conversion. Conversions are "not clean" and "usually compromised". For me... it's now "much easier" to build a dedicated CNC from scratch for my needs. That may not be the case for most hobbyists because you need some prior equipment, or access to some to accomplish that.

    and MOSTLY...

    I'm not able to find what I want or need in a CNC without giving up my legs and possibly my arms... then what would I do?

    Ray

    Last edited by allaces; 02-17-2019 at 03:08 PM.


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    Default Re: How do I setup a 2.2kw spindle so iy could be indexed and held in that position?

    Quote Originally Posted by allaces View Post
    I got more questions for you!

    I'm looking at incorporating a brake as you suggested...
    I'm thinking that a "second mag clutch" would do it... they are CHEAP and easy to modify for my need.
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/AC-A-C-Comp...1/223097334901
    Plus they are both 12 volt (which I'd be already using) and could easily made to engage at the end of each index with 10 HP of resistance. Talk about overkill! No need for hydraulics or other mechanical actuators of any type.

    Would this motor be a good choice?
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/CEM-Rolled-...e/323289273721

    You indicated 3HP... so am I wasting my time looking at 2HP?

    In your opinion... what is the lowest RPM that a 3HP 3600 RPM motor could run at and still produce enough useful torque when geared or setup to run at 5,000 RPM?
    2" diameter steel shafts are probably the largest diameter I'd be machining on this machine.
    Would a 3HP 3600 RPM motor be capable and reasonable to machine that considering that my setup would be basically direct drive?

    If I don't buy a new motor... what should I look for on a nameplate to indicate that it is "inverter duty"?

    Generally speaking... do you think I could efficiently run the average VFD controlled 3600 RPM motor at 5000 RPM.... or would gearing it up be better?
    I'll be using gears anyway, so which way would give the best end performance?
    It's my feeling that I will loose valuable torque either way.


    This is off topic... but I should probably elaborate a little on the R8 spindle I mentioned in the thread.
    The spindle is actually going to have a #5MT nose like my converted lathe has "without" the D1-4 section. This gives me a decent "hole thru spindle" for the size of lathe I'm designing. I may add a thread on the spindle nose for custom drive plates, etc... and the following sleeves allow me to use all the collet types I have and more...

    I already use the following sleeves on my converted lathe, and these sleeves will easily handle the 5000 RPM on my new one.

    #5MT to R8 (this one is an addition and I need to make it) Can't find a store bought one...
    #5MT to ER40
    #5MT to 5C
    ##5MT to 4" 3 Jaw
    #5MT to 4" 4 jaw

    ... all of which I already have the tooling for, and thus provide me with lots of versatility for the type of work I want/need/do.

    And... I could easily make custom #5MT to ??? for any other needs I may have.

    The reason for making my own CNC is mainly for the speed and accuracy to machine smaller parts. My Manual lathe (which I converted), can still operate in Manual and/or in CNC mode, but it can only handle 2000 RPM max. Plus... by making my own CNC, I can avoid all the complex mechanical problems/issues associated with a manual machine conversion. Conversions are "not clean" and "usually compromised". For me... it's now "much easier" to build a dedicated CNC from scratch for my needs. That may not be the case for most hobbyists because you need some prior equipment, or access to some to accomplish that.

    and MOSTLY...

    I'm not able to find what I want or need in a CNC without giving up my legs and possibly my arms... then what would I do?

    Ray
    After thinking about it more... I think it probably would be better for me to run the motor with a step belt and pulley system "outside" the spindle head to get low range torque for machining larger diameters. I'm thinking of a 2:1 ratio. I would therefore not need a huge motor and it would not affect the indexing ability I was looking for. The motor driven step belt pulley system could then drive the indexing geared shaft to the spindle inside the head. With this in mind do you think 2HP would be adequate?

    Ray

    Last edited by allaces; 02-17-2019 at 05:03 PM.


  5. #25
    Community Moderator Jim Dawson's Avatar
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    Default Re: How do I setup a 2.2kw spindle so iy could be indexed and held in that position?

    The step pulleys will work fine. I'm having a bit of trouble getting my head around what you are saying about the geared indexing shaft.

    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA


  6. #26
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    Default Re: How do I setup a 2.2kw spindle so iy could be indexed and held in that position?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Dawson View Post
    The step pulleys will work fine. I'm having a bit of trouble getting my head around what you are saying about the geared indexing shaft.
    I'm looking at the spindle to only have the driven gear, position/speed sensor, and bearings on it.
    Next to it will be what I'll call the driving gear/index shaft for this spindle.
    One end of this shaft will have the 2 clutches and Nema 34 connected to it for indexing.
    The other end of that shaft will be the driving gear, support bearing, and external driving step pulleys I mentioned.

    - I'm revising this above idea to using a timing belt instead of gears inside the head. Now days... you can get pretty rigid setups using them with pretty much 0 backlash. I already use that setup on my converted to CNC mill/drill, to operate a second spindle. Adjusting and maintaining C/D is also easier, plus no oil lubrication required.
    - I'm also looking at putting the "brake" using a mag clutch on the spindle shaft instead of the driving gear/index shaft I mentioned above. This would eliminate milling force vibrations created from the connection between 2 shafts. I ordered a few mag clutches... I'll see if can somehow fit one on the 2" diameter spindle shaft... I doubt I will be able to... then a disk brake may be the best way to go.

    Again... this is still work in progress, so learning and changing my mind is part of the process

    Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.

    Ray

    Last edited by allaces; 02-18-2019 at 05:25 PM.


  7. #27
    Member mactec54's Avatar
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    Default Re: How do I setup a 2.2kw spindle so iy could be indexed and held in that position?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Dawson View Post
    I am considering doing the same thing on my lathe using a DMM 1.8KW servo, and a 12V automotive air conditioner clutch. The air conditioner clutch will transmit about 10 HP so should work well for a NEMA 34 stepper.

    My lathe is a bit larger than yours (10 HP spindle), hence the need for a larger indexing drive.




    I have not been successful trying to index my spindle motor with a sensorless vector VFD, maybe you could give me a hint as to how to accomplish it.

    Motor: Fanuc 7.5 KW, 6000 RPM, 4 pole
    VFD: Automation Direct GS3, 10 HP w/encoder input option
    Encoder: 1024 line, RS422 output, driven from the spindle
    Control: Galil DMC-1846

    Speed control works perfectly, but have never been able to get it to index. The original Fanuc drive would index it to +/- 1 degree.
    For an example check you Haas with the Rigid Tapping and the spindle orientation, these are using a regular inverter duty Baldor motor the encoder is on the spindle, they use a lot of DC to control the stiffness of the motor to a point of locking the motor, which you can do with some regular VFD Drives does not have to be a vector drive I did it with this Bridgeport Boss5 standard Ac motor and Yaskawa VFD Drive Encoder on the spindle and a brake on the spindle

    The control also plays a big part as well

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails How do I setup a 2.2kw spindle so iy could be indexed and held in that position?-bridgeport-encoder-2-jpg   How do I setup a 2.2kw spindle so iy could be indexed and held in that position?-bridgeport-head-mod-2-jpg  
    Mactec54


  8. #28
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    Default Re: How do I setup a 2.2kw spindle so iy could be indexed and held in that position?

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    For an example check you Haas with the Rigid Tapping and the spindle orientation, these are using a regular inverter duty Baldor motor the encoder is on the spindle, they use a lot of DC to control the stiffness of the motor to a point of locking the motor, which you can do with some regular VFD Drives does not have to be a vector drive I did it with this Bridgeport Boss5 standard Ac motor and Yaskawa VFD Drive Encoder on the spindle and a brake on the spindle

    The control also plays a big part as well
    Very nice and clean looking setup.
    How is the disk brake sequentially operated?

    Ray



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    Default Re: How do I setup a 2.2kw spindle so iy could be indexed and held in that position?

    Would you happen to know what the field coil bore diameter for this clutch is, it more than 2"?
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/AC-A-C-Comp...1/223097334901
    I can't seem to get an answer from anyone for that..
    If it's over 2" then that could possibly allow me to use it for a spindle position brake right on my main spindle.

    Ray

    Last edited by allaces; 02-19-2019 at 06:13 PM.


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    Default

    I’m running a 2hp 3500rpm Techtop with a 3hp vector drive and have run it at 7000rpm and I’ve turned diameter of 8” without any issues however large diameters you’re turning slow anyways it’s just too much swinging around. For 2-3” diameter I maybe turn at 4-5k range. I was going to upgrade to 3hp until I switched to a vector drive now I’m not sure that’s even necessary. It practically polished as it cuts at high speeds and no issues grunting through cuts 2mm deep in 7075.
    Quote Originally Posted by allaces View Post
    I got more questions for you!

    I'm looking at incorporating a brake as you suggested...
    I'm thinking that a "second mag clutch" would do it... they are CHEAP and easy to modify for my need.
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/AC-A-C-Comp...1/223097334901
    Plus they are both 12 volt (which I'd be already using) and could easily made to engage at the end of each index with 10 HP of resistance. Talk about overkill! No need for hydraulics or other mechanical actuators of any type.

    Would this motor be a good choice?
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/CEM-Rolled-...e/323289273721

    You indicated 3HP... so am I wasting my time looking at 2HP?

    In your opinion... what is the lowest RPM that a 3HP 3600 RPM motor could run at and still produce enough useful torque when geared or setup to run at 5,000 RPM?
    2" diameter steel shafts are probably the largest diameter I'd be machining on this machine.
    Would a 3HP 3600 RPM motor be capable and reasonable to machine that considering that my setup would be basically direct drive?

    If I don't buy a new motor... what should I look for on a nameplate to indicate that it is "inverter duty"?

    Generally speaking... do you think I could efficiently run the average VFD controlled 3600 RPM motor at 5000 RPM.... or would gearing it up be better?
    I'll be using gears anyway, so which way would give the best end performance?
    It's my feeling that I will loose valuable torque either way.


    This is off topic... but I should probably elaborate a little on the R8 spindle I mentioned in the thread.
    The spindle is actually going to have a #5MT nose like my converted lathe has "without" the D1-4 section. This gives me a decent "hole thru spindle" for the size of lathe I'm designing. I may add a thread on the spindle nose for custom drive plates, etc... and the following sleeves allow me to use all the collet types I have and more...

    I already use the following sleeves on my converted lathe, and these sleeves will easily handle the 5000 RPM on my new one.

    #5MT to R8 (this one is an addition and I need to make it) Can't find a store bought one...
    #5MT to ER40
    #5MT to 5C
    ##5MT to 4" 3 Jaw
    #5MT to 4" 4 jaw

    ... all of which I already have the tooling for, and thus provide me with lots of versatility for the type of work I want/need/do.

    And... I could easily make custom #5MT to ??? for any other needs I may have.

    The reason for making my own CNC is mainly for the speed and accuracy to machine smaller parts. My Manual lathe (which I converted), can still operate in Manual and/or in CNC mode, but it can only handle 2000 RPM max. Plus... by making my own CNC, I can avoid all the complex mechanical problems/issues associated with a manual machine conversion. Conversions are "not clean" and "usually compromised". For me... it's now "much easier" to build a dedicated CNC from scratch for my needs. That may not be the case for most hobbyists because you need some prior equipment, or access to some to accomplish that.

    and MOSTLY...

    I'm not able to find what I want or need in a CNC without giving up my legs and possibly my arms... then what would I do?

    Ray




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How do I setup a 2.2kw spindle so iy could be indexed and held in that position?

How do I setup a 2.2kw spindle so iy could be indexed and held in that position?